Orlando Magic Entertainment Complex [Proposed]

[jrs2]

4 hours ago, JFW657 said:

Westcourt really does sound staid.  

I'd have gone for something like Magic City.

Magic Center.

Magic Plaza.   

Westcourt sounds like a Baptist church. 

LMFAO.  They have mass on Wednesdays...

[jrs2]

3 hours ago, RedStar25 said:

"evils of socialism"...right. I don't think you know what socialism is. 

I believe it is time for a change. I don't care what their political ideology is as long as they get stuff done. Now, that being said, I would hate to see another Glenda Hood. 

to be fair to Buddy Administration, I think their strategy has been to build big things and hope they attract development.  As you stated, time to change up the strategy.  But they're gonna have to pony up $$$ cheddar to attract companies here to fill office space.

As for developers in general that are also in other markets, Lincoln, the Society people, the Skyhouse people, etc., are all here and you would think that when they see each other here, that others will watch and ultimately follow, much like Conrad did after seeing the success of Four Seasons, Waldorf, Ritz, etc, in the five star lodging market.  If DTO can continue to have demand for residential downtown, more projects will come, but, I think there is also a correlation with office space too.  Unless this is a shoreline like in Daytona where it is all condos and hotels, a downtown may need more to attract more residential development.  I don't think DTO in and of itself is a big enough draw unless there's more "stuff" here.

[dcluley98]

Mill Creek/Modera, Highwoods, and Hines are also all here. 

[JFW657]

1 hour ago, codypet said:

My mind right to "Stranger Things"

Or, for those of us who remember the 70's.....

"The playcentre for sensation seekers...."  

[codypet]

Just now, JFW657 said:

Or, for those of us who remember the 70's.....

"The playcentre for sensation seekers...."  

Haha sorry I was a product of the 80's and I remember my local mall looking just like Starcourt growing up.  

[codypet]

https://www.orlandosentinel.com/2024/04/24/orlando-magic-enterianment-district-incentives-maxwell/

Sums up my feelings pretty well.  Couple of highlights:

"I’m rooting for the Magic to make a comeback in the NBA playoffs. But boy, I’m also rooting for a day when this team pays for all its own darn business ventures."

"There wasn’t much time for questions (not that council members seemed to have many), including why the city was even offering incentives for a project that the Magic had already vowed to complete more than a decade ago."

"That is, in fact, the most troubling aspect of this deal — that once again, taxpayers are investing without being guaranteed returns. Other investors aren’t treated like this."

Of course there's also the 10 affordable housing units too.  I'm gonna be old man yells at cloud about this development right now. 

[jack]

20 minutes ago, codypet said:

https://www.orlandosentinel.com/2024/04/24/orlando-magic-enterianment-district-incentives-maxwell/

Sums up my feelings pretty well.  Couple of highlights:

"I’m rooting for the Magic to make a comeback in the NBA playoffs. But boy, I’m also rooting for a day when this team pays for all its own darn business ventures."

"There wasn’t much time for questions (not that council members seemed to have many), including why the city was even offering incentives for a project that the Magic had already vowed to complete more than a decade ago."

"That is, in fact, the most troubling aspect of this deal — that once again, taxpayers are investing without being guaranteed returns. Other investors aren’t treated like this."

Of course there's also the 10 affordable housing units too.  I'm gonna be old man yells at cloud about this development right now. 

Because the plan they want makes less and less economic sense as time goes on. Office is a dud in most markets, urban retail is tough, high rise multifamily is not a walk in the park either. 

The city is probably looking at their options. Pay a tiny amount of money to get this thing going, or stare at a vacant lot for another 20 years. 

[aent]

 

22 minutes ago, jack said:

Because the plan they want makes less and less economic sense as time goes on. Office is a dud in most markets, urban retail is tough, high rise multifamily is not a walk in the park either. 

 

You make it sound like it ever made economic sense. Remember, the city already gave massive subsidies here.... first, they subsidized the rent the entire time they were building the new arena, then after subsidizing the rent for years, they kicked everyone out and knocked down what was a reasonable looking city block with street level retail and parking above, rebuilt the facilities such as the police department elsewhere for many millions that probably didn't need it. And then they sold it to the Magic at a subsidized price. If they just did nothing, it would have still looked like a perfectly reasonable city block instead of a blighted empty lot. Its not like there was trash here before they got involved, it was reasonable... yeah, it wasn't great, but it wasn't anything anyone would really call awful.

 

Edit to add a street view link of this area a decade ago: https://www.google.com/maps/@28.5401728,-81.3832778,3a,90y,287.03h,86.59t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sn-9CCzuTyvhvso_JMoxRDA!2e0!5s20140301T000000!7i13312!8i6656?entry=ttu

Edited Monday at 07:03 PM by aent

[Ivanhoe]

1 hour ago, aent said:

 

You make it sound like it ever made economic sense. Remember, the city already gave massive subsidies here.... first, they subsidized the rent the entire time they were building the new arena, then after subsidizing the rent for years, they kicked everyone out and knocked down what was a reasonable looking city block with street level retail and parking above, rebuilt the facilities such as the police department elsewhere for many millions that probably didn't need it. And then they sold it to the Magic at a subsidized price. If they just did nothing, it would have still looked like a perfectly reasonable city block instead of a blighted empty lot. Its not like there was trash here before they got involved, it was reasonable... yeah, it wasn't great, but it wasn't anything anyone would really call awful.

 

Edit to add a street view link of this area a decade ago: https://www.google.com/maps/@28.5401728,-81.3832778,3a,90y,287.03h,86.59t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sn-9CCzuTyvhvso_JMoxRDA!2e0!5s20140301T000000!7i13312!8i6656?entry=ttu

Over time the former garage may have likely improved in appearance making for a decent city block.  The MEC could have easily filled in the adjacent lot to the west or even some of the parking lots around Central / Amelia. 
Or taken over Church Street Station and revitalized it.

Edited Monday at 08:48 PM by Ivanhoe

[jack]

4 hours ago, aent said:

 

You make it sound like it ever made economic sense. Remember, the city already gave massive subsidies here.... first, they subsidized the rent the entire time they were building the new arena, then after subsidizing the rent for years, they kicked everyone out and knocked down what was a reasonable looking city block with street level retail and parking above, rebuilt the facilities such as the police department elsewhere for many millions that probably didn't need it. And then they sold it to the Magic at a subsidized price. If they just did nothing, it would have still looked like a perfectly reasonable city block instead of a blighted empty lot. Its not like there was trash here before they got involved, it was reasonable... yeah, it wasn't great, but it wasn't anything anyone would really call awful.

 

Edit to add a street view link of this area a decade ago: https://www.google.com/maps/@28.5401728,-81.3832778,3a,90y,287.03h,86.59t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sn-9CCzuTyvhvso_JMoxRDA!2e0!5s20140301T000000!7i13312!8i6656?entry=ttu

I cannot say for certain it ever made economic sense without significant subsidies but the building is gone and the the city need to figure out how to activate the space. 

[FLClarkKent]

Again, I’ll believe it when I see it. The proposal, at least the details that have been shared thus far, doesn’t make much sense to me. For example, is there a need for a new office tower (currently or in the near future)? The office market is down nationally (post COVID) and many cities with a much bigger corporate presence are struggling to fill the space. 
 

if I ran the world, I’d scrap the office and replace it with additional residential. I’d keep the hotel but dramatically increase the meeting space to tap into the small and mid sized conference market. And I’d use that, along with activities at the arena, to lure national retailers. Lastly, I’d also ditch the 3,500 seat performance venue (too much competition the immediate area with DPAC, etc).

[GregoryMCSE]

4 hours ago, FLClarkKent said:

Again, I’ll believe it when I see it. The proposal, at least the details that have been shared thus far, doesn’t make much sense to me. For example, is there a need for a new office tower (currently or in the near future)? The office market is down nationally (post COVID) and many cities with a much bigger corporate presence are struggling to fill the space. 
 

if I ran the world, I’d scrap the office and replace it with additional residential. I’d keep the hotel but dramatically increase the meeting space to tap into the small and mid sized conference market. And I’d use that, along with activities at the arena, to lure national retailers. Lastly, I’d also ditch the 3,500 seat performance venue (too much competition the immediate area with DPAC, etc).

Exactly.  Hotel and residential only.  
 

With one caveat. Make the residential a 550 ft tower.  

Edited Tuesday at 01:00 PM by GregoryMCSE

[jrs2]

22 hours ago, jack said:

Because the plan they want makes less and less economic sense as time goes on. Office is a dud in most markets, urban retail is tough, high rise multifamily is not a walk in the park either. 

The city is probably looking at their options. Pay a tiny amount of money to get this thing going, or stare at a vacant lot for another 20 years. 

I wonder if this was their strategy all along; play the long game with The City until they are so sick of seeing an empty tract, they pony up the cheddar to finally get it done...

On 4/25/2024 at 3:16 PM, JFW657 said:

Or, for those of us who remember the 70's.....

"The playcentre for sensation seekers...."  

Yul scared the living hell out of me in that movie.  It's like when Mark Harmon played Bundy (Ted, not Al), and was typecast or whatever; ala Westworld, I could never separate Yul from that character.  Classic though...simply...classic...

[IAmFloridaBorn]

in my opinion, there should be 40 story mixed used building with office residential and hotel and some kind of green space for now with an entertainment part on the bottom or the top of a parking garage or so. For now and that doesn't have to take up the entire property wait-and-see, how things shift in the market and in the city and then expand on the other side. 

 

[jrs2]

34 minutes ago, IAmFloridaBorn said:

in my opinion, there should be 40 story mixed used building with office residential and hotel and some kind of green space for now with an entertainment part on the bottom or the top of a parking garage or so. For now and that doesn't have to take up the entire property wait-and-see, how things shift in the market and in the city and then expand on the other side. 

 

Exactly.  Aspire/Dynetech is a true vertically oriented mixed use building like that: retail, garage, office, apartment, pool on roof.   That building should have been ten stories taller because of what it is.  Star Tower is like that also.  CSP also.  Same with 101 Eola.

There aren't that many buildings like that around.  Most of them have pools on top of adjacent parking decks.  I would say that 55W is a hybrid because although it does have an adjacent parking deck with pool on top, there is also parking within the footprint of the tower.  The Plaza, I would say, is a hybrid as well, b/c although Solaire is on top of the parking deck, and parking is within the footprint of North and South towers below, there is still a pool on top of the parking deck in the area of more parking deck between the three towers.  However, part of the reason for this is because of the square footage that the Cinema takes up within the complex.  What's my point?  None, really, just to distinguish differing styles.

Edited Tuesday at 05:55 PM by jrs2

[IAmFloridaBorn]

43 minutes ago, jrs2 said:

Exactly.  Aspire/Dynetech is a true vertically oriented mixed use building like that: retail, garage, office, apartment, pool on roof.   That building should have been ten stories taller because of what it is.  Star Tower is like that also.  CSP also.  Same with 101 Eola.

There aren't that many buildings like that around.  Most of them have pools on top of adjacent parking decks.  I would say that 55W is a hybrid because although it does have an adjacent parking deck with pool on top, there is also parking within the footprint of the tower.  The Plaza, I would say, is a hybrid as well, b/c although Solaire is on top of the parking deck, and parking is within the footprint of North and South towers below, there is still a pool on top of the parking deck in the area of more parking deck between the three towers.  However, part of the reason for this is because of the square footage that the Cinema takes up within the complex.  What's my point?  None, really, just to distinguish differing styles.

The Dynatech building and the building where the movie theaters are are some of my favorite projects. I Love Church St., Plaza one and that's why I was highly anticipating the arrival of Church St., Plaza two. I think it's going to make Orlando versatile market in the future again as things continue to change. But we have to continue to strengthen decor around central city, and not just with big massive single functioning buildings