Inner Loop - CBD, Downtown, East Bank, Germantown, Gulch, Rutledge

[bhibbs]

They're hiding in the shadows of the dark garage, rapin every woman up. hide yo kids, hide yo wife.....

Not much to joke about when it's happened to a female that you know.

[bwithers1]

Well I may be in the minority but I really like this bridge and this is a big disappointment.  I think it's really important to create pedestrian links throughout the core to places that are not well connected.  Of course if the council actually thinks sidewalks are a good idea generally, this does represent a great advance in their thinking, we'll see if that's so.  

 

Personally I doubt they care, their constituents are just complaining that too much money is being spent downtown.  While spending in neighborhoods can improve the lifestyles there, spending downtown is an investment that brings people and their money to the city, creates huge increases in the tax base, and will pay off in the future with more money that can be used for other things.  I'm concerned about pedestrian safety, but people also need to understand the difference between spending for consumption versus investment.

The whole problem with this pedestrian bridge is that it was taken out of the county-wide sidewalk fund.  In fact, pretty much it was the countywide sidewalk fund.  If this particular pedestrian bridge were listed as a separate line item in the capital expenditures budget that was debated and approved by the council last June - like the $55Million for the Sounds Ballpark was - that would have been one thing.  But when district Council Members heard about this bridge from their constituents who asked how it was being paid for, they went back to Rich Riebling, who said "it has already been budgeted."  How so?  It was the sidewalk fund line item.  And yet Rich Riebling is still telling Metro Council Members and department heads to be prepared for more budget cuts in June.  That's why people went crazy about this one.  Very bad political move. 

 

Maybe Tuesday, February 4th was Day 1 of Dean's Lame Duck term. 

 

The next mayor is going to have to deal with the fact that Mayor Dean is bankrupting this city with cool but unnecessary projects that do little to improve the quality of life of the folks who live here and pay property taxes year round, not just that one weekend when they came to town to drink at the honky tonks.

 

"Investment" downtown to bring in tourist money is OK as long as you can keep the lights on in the rest of the county.  But let's face it, the overwhelming majority of new residents - and hence private investment - is occurring in the urban core neighborhoods.  Downtown and even Germantown are a drop in the bucket.  The average Council District has about 17,000 people, and there are 35 of those, versus how many people in the Gulch?  What is the population of the new Roundabout?  Almost zero.  Sidewalk money needs to go where the people are.  That is what it is for.  We have already spent more than enough money on the Convention Center and other projects that are geared toward our tourism industry.

Edited February 20, 2014 by bwithers1

[Neigeville2]

Yeah, it was stupid of them to take it out of the sidewalk fund, and if all we have for sidewalks is $15,000,000 as backward as we are on sidewalks, we need to find some way to fund a multi-year sidewalk project.  

 

Does anyone have any idea how much sidewalks generally run?  A lot of places will need some major engineering to install them. I would hope they would give some thought to the design as well, there is all the difference in the world between a sidewalk that forces you to walk inches away from moving vehicles (like most in Nashville), and one with even an 18" grass buffer.  Women and timid persons are reluctant to use the former, and rightly so, especially along bus routes.  I've been stunned to see sidewalks directly on the street when there is plenty of room for a buffer.  Some concrete planters in particularly dangerous areas (set so as to block careless drivers, not pedestrians) would be a good idea as well.

 

Meanwhile DT developers need to be thinking about public/private infrastructure funding.  For example, eventually capping the canyonized portion of 40 through downtown is definitely something developers should think about promoting, and they should bring some money to the table.

 

BTW I have to take exception to the phrase "bankrupting the city", we're pretty far from junk bond status IMO.  And those drunks and high-end dining tourists downtown are paying taxes, and plenty of them.  Whatever lures people to visit and pay hospitality taxes etc. is fine by me.

[Guest]

I welcome them and their tax money, but hasn't most, if not all, of the tax revenue is already allocated to MCC debt service.

 

BTW I have to take exception to the phrase "bankrupting the city", we're pretty far from junk bond status IMO.  And those drunks and high-end dining tourists downtown are paying taxes, and plenty of them.  Whatever lures people to visit and pay hospitality taxes etc. is fine by me.

Edited February 20, 2014 by Guest

[Neigeville2]

This is probably something garage designers need to work on.  Regardless of whether they really are more dangerous than surface lots (I think it depends on the lot), they tend to look creepy.  Bright lights, a coat of white paint and some highly visible cameras might help, both to create the illusion of safety and to actually discourage the criminal element.  I'm not minimizing the danger, I just don't think surface lots are any better, especially if they adjoin alleys or abandoned buildings.  

 

And at the beginning of the discussion we were comparing underground to above ground parking, but I think we veered off into structured versus surface.  Surface parking is terrible from an urban design standpoint.

[UTgrad09]

I agree with a lot of bwithers' points.

 

I'll start off by saying that I don't think Dean is a bad mayor, but I have been highly critical of many of his recent moves. He is proposing a large number of expensive legacy projects -- projects which, by themselves, are probably good for this city. That would be great if we had an unlimited amount of money to spend, because it would mean we could get those projects done as well as badly needed neighborhood projects.

 

When you add up the collection of large public projects (the Amp, the ballpark, the ampitheater, the Gulch pedestrian bridge, and the Division St extension -- as well as some I may be leaving out), you wonder where his head is at. Almost every one of these big projects are within a mile of downtown. Now I love our downtown, and I want to see it continue to improve for years to come, but I fear that this 'downtown-centric' building spree will lead to a backlash as some neighborhoods seem to get completely ignored (I do want to acknowledge that there are or have been government projects initiated in other areas -- Antioch, Madison, 12th South, namely, under Dean -- but the high profile projects are by and large inside the downtown loop).

 

Downtown doesn't need a lot of help. The economy is on fire, at least in terms of real estate. It will develop on its own. I don't think it is necessary to continue to try to foster new development. Out-of-town publications have been writing us up left and right for years now...with the MCC complete, I don't personally think we need to worry too much about the future of tourism. The hotels will come. I am not opposed to using a little bit of TIF money here and there, but for the most part, I think the market can and should take care of that.

 

I think the ballpark is not a great deal for the city, aside from purely aesthetic purposes, by speeding up the process of developing the parking lots/brownfields between downtown and Germantown.

 

I really like the Gulch pedestrian bridge, but it is a luxury item, not a necessity. It will not make or break that area.

 

I do not like the ampitheater project. I think the design is abysmal, and I still have reservations about whether or not that is the best use of the space.

 

The real loser here is the Amp, or mass/rapid transit in any form. With so many distracting projects, it's difficult to both amass the funding and the support/attention required to get this done. And while the Amp does benefit downtown, it is a multi-neighborhood project...one that could potentially benefit a lot of people (if done correctly). I don't even know if the Amp could get underway during the Dean administration, but I worry that rather than having a template, we're going to end up with the kind of mess that will require the next mayor (or the one after) to hit the reset button.

 

I think in the coming years, we need to see a de-centralization of government pet projects. More focus on neighborhood infrastructure -- sidewalks, bike lanes, safer arterial roads, neighborhood schools (we have quite a few little jewels from days past that I think should be renovated and used as SCHOOLS again). There are stormwater issues that need to be addressed in the wake of the flood, and there needs to be more attention paid to neighborhood zoning, rather than just 'densify everything!'

[UTgrad09]

The proximity to activity would probably also have something to do with it. A well-lit surface lot near Broadway, or anywhere with a lot of foot traffic would likely be safer than a garage that is in a nightlife-deficient area north of Church St. 

 

Surface lot or garage, I would not advise anyone to park in an area where there is very little activity at night. The only exceptions may be during Preds games or concerts, when you have a large number of people parking several blocks away from the arena, and you'll likely have company on your way back.

[titanhog]

The thing about a garage, especially underground, is that it is pretty spooky even in the middle of the day...and often, when you get out of your car, you're all alone.  Then...if you suddenly hear footsteps behind you, it can be quite disconcerting.  

 

I've never been attacked, but I've been afraid before.

 

And yes...an outdoor lot at night in certain areas can be quite intimidating as well.

[arkitekte]

It's all on the developer and how much he's willing to spend. I realize that with a public garage security is a lot harder to guarantee.

 

While lighting and security cameras (whether real or fake can help), I've found that underground parking garages are probably the most safe, at least in my experience.  

 

The garage I park in here in Memphis is underground and has a rolling door access. If you want to enter the garage whether in your vehicle or by foot you have to use a fob or enter a specific security code, which periodically changes. Other than the fact that at times it's pretty dark, I know that no one who isn't supposed to be in there is inside. As far as infrastructure, it's a little more expensive. I park on the very bottom level of my garage and there's always water standing inside in various places. 

[Hey_Hey]

I'm not a female, but I don't see all that much difference between a garage and a surface lot, assuming you're alone in either. I don't like walking in either one without a group of people. As others have mentioned, conspicuous cameras do make me feel better. Not that they will somehow keep me from being robbed if someone really wanted to rob me, but for most criminals a heavy camera presence would serve as a big deterrent. Camera technology is getting cheap, and there really is no reason for the city and property owners to have a heavy camera presence.

[titanhog]

I think either can be dangerous, but a garage seems more closed off...more places for a predator to hide...and depending on where you park in the garage, I'm not sure anyone can hear you scream for help unless they happen to be heading to or from their own car.  I doubt a predator will attack if others are around.

 

On a surface lot, I'm always going to attempt to park near other people, if possible.  I can more easily scan the area and make a decision on whether or not it's a safe situation.  It's more difficult to scan a garage and tell if it's safe or not.

 

Of course, these are my own thoughts when I park.  I just know that I feel way better about parking on the street or in a surface lot because I can see what's around me.

[FrankNash]

Not to get off the subject but, wasn't Sony looking for office space last year? Am I dreaming this or have they already decided where they are going?

[donNdonelson2]

Not to get off the subject but, wasn't Sony looking for office space last year? Am I dreaming this or have they already decided where they are going?

http://news.tn.gov/node/10736

 

from 5/21/13:

 

NASHVILLE—Tennessee Department of Economic and Community Development Commissioner Bill Hagerty along with Sony/ATV Music Publishing officials today announced an expansion and relocation of the company’s global administration offices within Nashville. Sony/ATV’s offices, currently located at 65 Music Square West, will move to Fifth Third Center in downtown Nashville. Sony/ATV will invest several million dollars and create approximately 50-60 new jobs.

[TMcKay9]

My wife works at Vandy and they were on high alert last yeah after a lady was raped in the Children's Hospital parking garage.  Like titanhog said, there are more places to hide and less of a chance that someone will hear you yell.  

[Paramount747]

Any news on the 12 story hotel? Specifically a rendering?

[Paramount747]

Hilton Garden Inn still moving quite slow, but it appears the pace will pick up. Demolition of the old property was last February, and in the year since, not much has happened. I hear it is due to a very fractured and loose soil/rock composition and they had trouble finding stable rock. You can look at it and see several feet of loose rock and soil on top. It took them awhile to pour footers due to an absence of stable rock. That is what I have noticed. I am confident the foundation will suffice, but you will also notice how thin the caissons are due to the building not being very tall. 

 

It appears they are ready to back fill the basement floor with gravel and then pour the thick concrete floor sometime soon.

 

10 stories and 100 feet. Ron was right on this one. I will be shocked if this building is much over 100 feet. Maybe 120 like the Hilton Downtown.

 

In any case this will be good infill once it is finished, but wont look any nicer than the horrid Hyatt Place.

Edited February 21, 2014 by Urban Architecture

[nashmoney]

In any case this will be good infill once it is finished, but wont look any nicer than the horrid Hyatt Place.

 

I actually kind of like the Hyatt Place....especially at night. It's Growing on me. It looks good from the 24/65 interstate downtown. Definitely should have had more glass incorporated into the design

 

Now I absolutley hate this view/angle of the hotel

 

[Rockatansky]

One thing to keep in mind is that most of the outlying neighborhoods in Nashville don't generate enough property & sales taxes to cover the cost of providing government services to them. Commercial development, especially high density development, pays the bills.

 

That being said, the neighborhoods certainly shouldn't be ignored. But understand that downtown investments which encourage further commercial and high density residential development pay for themselves (and more). Investments in neighborhoods largely, do not.

[UTgrad09]

One thing to keep in mind is that most of the outlying neighborhoods in Nashville don't generate enough property & sales taxes to cover the cost of providing government services to them. Commercial development, especially high density development, pays the bills.

 

That being said, the neighborhoods certainly shouldn't be ignored. But understand that downtown investments which encourage further commercial and high density residential development pay for themselves (and more). Investments in neighborhoods largely, do not.

 

You're right that the higher density (especially commercial) areas pay the bills -- but my point is that downtown/Gulch/SoBro/Midtown/West End are going to do that whether or not any of these projects are built. They have plenty of momentum without government encouragement. Like I said, a little TIF here and there is fine...but you can't tell me that a pedestrian bridge or an ampitheater will boost development by any noticeable level. The ballpark will really only speed up what is inevitable. The downtown projects the city needs to concentrate on should be more along the lines of public safety (including sidewalks, bike lanes, and power line burying), and stormwater/flood protection.

 

We have to keep in mind that while we want to create a great business and visitor environment, the people who work in those offices, hotels, and restaurants still, by and large, go home somewhere other than downtown (or even the urban core). I don't think a city can function properly if we take the approach that those that pay the most get the lion's share of the benefits. I don't think we should totally ignore the urban areas, in terms of city improvements...because there is a lot left to be done. But I do think that we should concentrate more efforts in places that actually need help creating momentum. It is my belief that an investment in areas that need improvement will lead to more fruitful outcomes in the city than it will in areas where private investment is already taking over. 

 

Rather than furthering the gap between neighborhoods that contribute more to city services than they take away, shouldn't we be trying to raise the level of other neighborhoods so they cover the cost of their city services?

[UTgrad09]

^^^

Imagine the change it would've made had they simply covered the light stucco portion of the back to match the dark blue glass in the front.

[Neigeville2]

You're right that the higher density (especially commercial) areas pay the bills -- but my point is that downtown/Gulch/SoBro/Midtown/West End are going to do that whether or not any of these projects are built. They have plenty of momentum without government encouragement. Like I said, a little TIF here and there is fine...but you can't tell me that a pedestrian bridge or an ampitheater will boost development by any noticeable level. The ballpark will really only speed up what is inevitable. The downtown projects the city needs to concentrate on should be more along the lines of public safety (including sidewalks, bike lanes, and power line burying), and stormwater/flood protection.

 

We have to keep in mind that while we want to create a great business and visitor environment, the people who work in those offices, hotels, and restaurants still, by and large, go home somewhere other than downtown (or even the urban core). I don't think a city can function properly if we take the approach that those that pay the most get the lion's share of the benefits. I don't think we should totally ignore the urban areas, in terms of city improvements...because there is a lot left to be done. But I do think that we should concentrate more efforts in places that actually need help creating momentum. It is my belief that an investment in areas that need improvement will lead to more fruitful outcomes in the city than it will in areas where private investment is already taking over. 

 

Rather than furthering the gap between neighborhoods that contribute more to city services than they take away, shouldn't we be trying to raise the level of other neighborhoods so they cover the cost of their city services?

 

I would have a couple of comments about this, I think it's true that development will continue in the core without much subsidy, but I think we've only crossed that line in the last few years.  When the Arena was built it wasn't at all clear that it would succeed although obviously by now it has surpassed all expectations and is one of the most successful venues of its type in the country.  At some point we crossed the line into having a world-class downtown, especially as regards dining and entertainment, and this is probably pretty self-sustaining, but that has only just happened.

 

As to "trying to raise the level of other neighborhoods so they cover the cost of their city services", no, the whole point is that modest neighborhoods should be subsidized by the commercial and high density development.  I don't want to raise taxes on everyone in Davidson County, even if that comes about by making their property so valuable that homeowners feel rich (at the expense of renters and those looking to buy).  I certainly don't want a situation where people of average means can't afford to live in Davidson.  

 

(On the other hand, huge houses on giant lots shouldn't be subsidized in this way, so I don't know what the ideal policy should be.  But I don't think we should be pursuing policies to drive up housing costs in general.)

[samsonh]

The whole problem with this pedestrian bridge is that it was taken out of the county-wide sidewalk fund.  In fact, pretty much it was the countywide sidewalk fund.  If this particular pedestrian bridge were listed as a separate line item in the capital expenditures budget that was debated and approved by the council last June - like the $55Million for the Sounds Ballpark was - that would have been one thing.  But when district Council Members heard about this bridge from their constituents who asked how it was being paid for, they went back to Rich Riebling, who said "it has already been budgeted."  How so?  It was the sidewalk fund line item.  And yet Rich Riebling is still telling Metro Council Members and department heads to be prepared for more budget cuts in June.  That's why people went crazy about this one.  Very bad political move. 

 

Maybe Tuesday, February 4th was Day 1 of Dean's Lame Duck term. 

 

The next mayor is going to have to deal with the fact that Mayor Dean is bankrupting this city with cool but unnecessary projects that do little to improve the quality of life of the folks who live here and pay property taxes year round, not just that one weekend when they came to town to drink at the honky tonks.

 

"Investment" downtown to bring in tourist money is OK as long as you can keep the lights on in the rest of the county.  But let's face it, the overwhelming majority of new residents - and hence private investment - is occurring in the urban core neighborhoods.  Downtown and even Germantown are a drop in the bucket.  The average Council District has about 17,000 people, and there are 35 of those, versus how many people in the Gulch?  What is the population of the new Roundabout?  Almost zero.  Sidewalk money needs to go where the people are.  That is what it is for.  We have already spent more than enough money on the Convention Center and other projects that are geared toward our tourism industry.

 

How is Dean bankrupting the city? Let's look at credit ratings, where the 2013 GO bonds were issued at Aa1 and AA. Let's look back to 2006, the year before Dean was sworn in. The 2006 GO bonds were issued at Aa2 and AA. Slightly worse.

 

The ratings agencies and the credit markets certainly do not think Dean is bankrupting the city. Why do you? Or were you just being political?

[MLBrumby]

From WW's piece in the Post today, Sulphur Dell proposals from several university programs (with renderings).  I think I like Harvard's best for how it treats the greenway across the mall and how it addresses Jefferson Street...  

 

http://nashvillepost.com/news/2014/2/21/uli_names_four_finalists_in_sulphur_dell_design_competition

 

 

Edited February 21, 2014 by MLBrumby

[smeagolsfree]

Going to tap the foot a little guys. Let's get some of the threads back on topic. You are more than welcome to carry on the discussion over in the coffee house. I am as guilty as anyone else, but we need to get a little order back in some of the threads that have gone off on long tangents. A little is fine, but some have gotten out of hand.

 

Thanks guys. You always do what you can to make the Mod's job easy here.

[Bezoar]

From WW's piece in the Post today, Sulphur Dell proposals from several university programs (with renderings).  I think I like Harvard's best for how it treats the greenway across the mall and how it addresses Jefferson Street...  

 

http://nashvillepost.com/news/2014/2/21/uli_names_four_finalists_in_sulphur_dell_design_competition

 

 

 

 

I like this one the best, too.  Although, they kicked out the Farmer's Market!