Greenville County Square redevelopment

[CLT_sc]

1 hour ago, vicupstate said:

 

I can't say for certain but it certainly appears that the recent uptick in vacancy is 70% the BB&T building. I don't think one transaction can be that indicative of the market as a whole. If they had stuck to their original plan (convert to apartments), it would not have raised vacancy. Obviously if they thought the  space would sit vacant they would not have changed their plans.  

 

This is misleading at best.  It is more accurate to say the government is selling land it already owns at market rate.  The developer is not receiving  incentives.   The Panther relocation certaInly did  receive government assistance. 

As for the overall point, I don't think it is debatable that you always try to take the pessismtic view for all things Greenville.  

Misleading?  The question to ask is would this project exist without being driven by the government?   If you have the financials, please share.

Panthers?  It is an intersection and refund of income taxes.  Not much different than what you would offer other HQ relocations and it’s the NFL which can drive a lot more development.  If the state can provide direct contributions to a Bob Jones museum, giving tax incentives for the NFL is in no way out of line.  In fact, between the two, the Panthers is a much easier call.  

As for being pessimistic, that is judgement.  I rely on metrics and economics for what I see.  And, if you see a 15% vacancy rate with negative absorption and a lot of inner market moves, adding 550k immediately is not what I would consider a good move.  From what I see, if it happens in Greenville, it automatically becomes the best and biggest in S.C. Metrics are typically ignored or discounted and other cities are discounted as Government cities (Cola) or tourist cities (Charleston) or just car dependent Charlotte suburbs (Fort Mill/Rock Hill).  But, Greenville always does it better.

[vicupstate]

Quote

Misleading?  The question to ask is would this project exist without being driven by the government?   If you have the financials, please share.

Developers have approached the county about their land since at least 2007.  The pre-crash proposal had the county offices located off site completely. So no, the desireability of the land is not driven by the fact that government offices will be there.  The large acreage and close proximity to Falls Park and DT are clearly what  make it valuable.   

 

Quote

And, if you see a 15% vacancy rate with negative absorption

As has been explained this is largely one transaction involving Class B space.  One negative quarter does not a trend make.   We do  seem to have a harder time filling Class B space than Class A space.  That doesn't seem to be unique though.  I assume the BB&T building renovations would upgrade that space to Class A, which should help to fill it.  Two big blocks of Class B space, Liberty One and Two, are now at 95% occupancy, so that is a positive.  I am not sure if that has been reflected in the occupancy rates yet, or if that came after the quarter ended.  

As for the Panthers, refunding income taxes is most definitely unusual for a project that is not creating direct jobs in the hundreds or thousands. This is being  done for vanity more than new jobs.   There are many examples of the state and local governments funding Aquariums, museums, civic centers , art centers, etc.  all over the state , however.  

Quote

adding 550k immediately is not what I would consider a good move

As you know, but won't state, because you seek to be as negative as possible, NONE of this  space is being added immediately and it will not be added at one time either. It will be added sometime between 2023 and probably 2035.  Could be longer or shorter time period. It could be more SF or it could be less.   There is  no reason to believe it can't be filled under that expectation. 

 

[gman430]

1 hour ago, CLT_sc said:

Misleading?  The question to ask is would this project exist without being driven by the government?   If you have the financials, please share.

The reason the government is involved is because the county which is a government entity owns the site currently. Would the project get built if a private entity owned the site instead? Who knows.

2 hours ago, vicupstate said:

 

I can't say for certain but it certainly appears that the recent uptick in vacancy is 70% the BB&T building. I don't think one transaction can be that indicative of the market as a whole. If they had stuck to their original plan (convert to apartments), it would not have raised vacancy. Obviously if they thought the  space would sit vacant they would not have changed their plans.  

 

I still don’t understand why they changed it from apartments to office space. They said companies were interested in the space but none of this space has been leased yet. Wish they would change it back to apartments and add affordable units. 

Edited October 20, 2019 by gman430

[gman430]

1 hour ago, CLT_sc said:

Panthers?  It is an intersection and refund of income taxes.  Not much different than what you would offer other HQ relocations and it’s the NFL which can drive a lot more development.  If the state can provide direct contributions to a Bob Jones museum, giving tax incentives for the NFL is in no way out of line.  In fact, between the two, the Panthers is a much easier call.  

I tend to agree. The state giving tax incentives to the Panthers isn’t any different or worse then them giving money to the conference center downtown. 

Edited October 20, 2019 by gman430

[CLT_sc]

34 minutes ago, vicupstate said:

Developers have approached the county about their land since at least 2007.  The pre-crash proposal had the county offices located off site completely. So no, the desireability of the land is not driven by the fact that government offices will be there.  The large acreage and close proximity to Falls Park and DT are clearly what  make it valuable.   

 

As has been explained this is largely one transaction involving Class B space.  One negative quarter does not a trend make.   We do  seem to have a harder time filling Class B space than Class A space.  That doesn't seem to be unique though.  I assume the BB&T building renovations would upgrade that space to Class A, which should help to fill it.  Two big blocks of Class B space, Liberty One and Two, are now at 95% occupancy, so that is a positive.  I am not sure if that has been reflected in the occupancy rates yet, or if that came after the quarter ended.  

As for the Panthers, refunding income taxes is most definitely unusual for a project that is not creating direct jobs in the hundreds or thousands. This is being  done for vanity more than new jobs.   There are many examples of the state and local governments funding Aquariums, museums, civic centers , art centers, etc.  all over the state , however.  

As you know, but won't state, because you seek to be as negative as possible, NONE of this  space is being added immediately and it will not be added at one time either. It will be added sometime between 2023 and probably 2035.  Could be longer or shorter time period. It could be more SF or it could be less.   There is  no reason to believe it can't be filled under that expectation. 

 

Actually, if you go back and read my first post on this subject, I actually agreed with a comment that this is a long term project....almost exactly what you said in your last paragraph.  Gman agreed and gvillesc and cableagent downvoted it because I said it.  But, consistently running at 15% (Greenvilles CBD vacancy for years) while not including space for sublease and then talking about adding 10% of the total market inventory is a very aggressive move.  Longer term, as I said earlier, is more likely.  And, I also did the state needs to get more aggressive in all metros for office recruitment, I presume you would agree.

The panthers are creating hundreds of jobs in S.C., and much higher paying jobs than you think.  This project is also just a start of building out the site with many other uses.  Atrium is building an ortho facility which will create jobs along with hotels, office and residential.  If this were in Greenville, you and others would not have an issue with it. It is certainly a better deal for S.C. than giving $25mm for a Bob Jones museum. 

What is the cash outlay for the county to get this project moving?   The county has to spend money to get this project moving which is why this project goes nowhere without government assistance. I don’t disagree the location of this project is good and a selling point.   What is the county paying to move the state offices, infrastructure, and for a county office building?  What are the incremental cost of this v payback and timeline (of course with a time value of money)?  Once that is determined, then you can what the developers are receiving in incentives.   

[cabelagent]

1 hour ago, CLT_sc said:

Actually, if you go back and read my first post on this subject, I actually agreed with a comment that this is a long term project....almost exactly what you said in your last paragraph.  Gman agreed and gvillesc and cableagent downvoted it because I said it.  But, consistently running at 15% (Greenvilles CBD vacancy for years) while not including space for sublease and then talking about adding 10% of the total market inventory is a very aggressive move.  Longer term, as I said earlier, is more likely.  And, I also did the state needs to get more aggressive in all metros for office recruitment, I presume you would agree.

The panthers are creating hundreds of jobs in S.C., and much higher paying jobs than you think.  This project is also just a start of building out the site with many other uses.  Atrium is building an ortho facility which will create jobs along with hotels, office and residential.  If this were in Greenville, you and others would not have an issue with it. It is certainly a better deal for S.C. than giving $25mm for a Bob Jones museum. 

What is the cash outlay for the county to get this project moving?   The county has to spend money to get this project moving which is why this project goes nowhere without government assistance. I don’t disagree the location of this project is good and a selling point.   What is the county paying to move the state offices, infrastructure, and for a county office building?  What are the incremental cost of this v payback and timeline (of course with a time value of money)?  Once that is determined, then you can what the developers are receiving in incentives.   

LOL...I give a thumbsdown as you come across as pompous, pious, condescending , arrogant, etc. Perhaps you can shock us and prove otherwise. Don't believe it's possible...

 

Edited October 20, 2019 by cabelagent

[distortedlogic]

2 hours ago, CLT_sc said:

 From what I see, if it happens in Greenville, it automatically becomes the best and biggest in S.C.  But, Greenville always does it better.

Good, now that you've seen reality, we can get back to discussing our fair city! 

[GvilleSC]

1 minute ago, distortedlogic said:

Good, now that you've seen reality, we can get back to discussing our fair city! 

[CLT_sc]

31 minutes ago, distortedlogic said:

Good, now that you've seen reality, we can get back to discussing our fair city! 

LOL, check the facts and metrics at the door, I get it.  More of a “yea, that’s the ticket” than discussion based in fact.

 

[vicupstate]

Quote

The panthers are creating hundreds of jobs in S.C., and much higher paying jobs than you think.  This project is also just a start of building out the site with many other uses.  Atrium is building an ortho facility which will create jobs along with hotels, office and residential.  If this were in Greenville, you and others would not have an issue with it. It is certainly a better deal for S.C. than giving $25mm for a Bob Jones museum. 

The state is investing $26  million which will co-fund TWO museums and a Conference Center.  All three of which bring tourism revenue and the Conference Center could be used for business recruitment as well.  The Panthers are getting $123 million in incentives for about two hundred jobs.  There is no gurantee that many of those jobs won't be filled by North Carolinians that merely change their commute.   Incentive deals are based on DIRECT jobs ,not spinoff jobs at a hotel that  pops up in its wake.   The Panthers owner is a contributor to McMaster's campaign  and these sports deals are notorious for not returning  on the typically massive investments.  

[CLT_sc]

Just now, vicupstate said:

The state is investing $26  million which will co-fund TWO museums and a Conference Center.  All three of which bring tourism revenue and the Conference Center could be used for business recruitment as well.  The Panthers are getting $123 million in incentives for about two hundred jobs.  There is no gurantee that many of those jobs won't be filled by North Carolinians that merely change their commute.   Incentive deals are based on DIRECT jobs ,not spinoff jobs at a hotel that  pops up in its wake.   The Panthers owner is a contributor to McMaster's campaign  and these sports deals are notorious for not returning  on the typically massive investments.  

Are you suggesting that Hughes doesn’t contribute to MCMaster?  Greenville is the biggest republican part of S.C. by a wide margin, do you think that doesn’t play into what the state gives Greenville?  Aren’t there numerous Bob Jones graduates on the Greenville Board who also contributed?

You are basing the museum assumptions on perceived revenue generation that may not materialize.  The conference center will be utilized a lot in my opinion, it is a niche market similar to the alumni center at USC.  The Panthers are moving hundreds of people to work in S.C. which will directly generate income tax revenue for S.C., that is the clear intent of incentives.  A NFL team is way more than a few coaches and players, it is a legit HQ.  

Additionally, part of the incentive package is infrastructure improvements on I77 which is needed due to York County being one of the fastest growing counties in SC.  Atrium health will be building an ortho center at the site which has already been announced, that directly creates jobs in sC as well.  Between the two, the NFL project is far and away a better investment for the state.  Like I said, if this was proposed at 101 and 85 across from BMW,  you and other would welcome it as you did with the state investing tons of money for ICAR which has never lived up to the sales pitch.

[gman430]

I don’t think McMaster decides where money goes or doesn’t. I’m pretty sure that’s up to the legislature.

[GvilleSC]

If North Carolina residents fill the Panthers HQ jobs, then N.C. collects the income tax for those people, not South Carolina. But like they said, he or she understand  economics more than the rest of us. 

Also, I don’t know what the “Greenville board” is that has numerous BJ graduates.  

[CLT_sc]

37 minutes ago, GvilleSC said:

If North Carolina residents fill the Panthers HQ jobs, then N.C. collects the income tax for those people, not South Carolina. But like they said, he or she understand  economics more than the rest of us. 

Also, I don’t know what the “Greenville board” is that has numerous BJ graduates.  

Little complicated for an architect,

lots of dependencies, but you will typically pay taxes in the state where you earn income.  You can claim a credit in most cases from your home state.  Example...NFL players “earn” money when playing a game in a CLT, they will file as a NR for NC.  Many people working in CLT who live in Ft Mill pay taxes in NC because that is where the money is earned.   

If you want to read the code, reference S.C. DOR Section 12-6-1720, this will get you started. 

BTW, filing taxes is more accounting and related to specific tax laws.  How you file depends on type of income, offsetting losses, where income was earned and a lot of other factors.  As a discipline and in practice, accounting and economics are very very different.    

Edited October 20, 2019 by CLT_sc

[gman430]

So what exactly are we arguing about in this thread again?  

[CLT_sc]

5 minutes ago, gman430 said:

So what exactly are we arguing about in this thread again?  

Good question,  I agreed with an earlier post and received a lot of negative comments because I didn’t praise Greenville.  Funny thing, a lot of people re-wrote my thoughts from an earlier pos and then tried to argue.  Since then, gvillesc has decided to inject tax law into the discussion as an “economic” event.  

[GvilleSC]

13 minutes ago, CLT_sc said:

Good question,  I agreed with an earlier post and received a lot of negative comments because I didn’t praise Greenville.  Funny thing, a lot of people re-wrote my thoughts from an earlier pos and then tried to argue.  Since then, gvillesc has decided to inject tax law into the discussion as an “economic” event.  

No— you tried (as you have for months) to justify moving the Panthers HQ as something that makes sense for the state. It doesn’t. South Carolina can write a brochure as a result of this move, but it does not make economic sense for the state. I’m not sure why you’re on an urban development board promoting decentralization and  sprawl anyhow, but whatever. 

And, again— your tax knowledge, which was YOUR justification, is incorrect. 

[CLT_sc]

20 minutes ago, GvilleSC said:

No— you tried (as you have for months) to justify moving the Panthers HQ as something that makes sense for the state. It doesn’t. South Carolina can write a brochure as a result of this move, but it does not make economic sense for the state. I’m not sure why you’re on an urban development board promoting decentralization and  sprawl anyhow, but whatever. 

And, again— your tax knowledge, which was YOUR justification, is incorrect. 

My justification? Apparently the code was not read. Check intuit and a lot of tax writing software.  

https://www.google.com/amp/s/ttlc.intuit.com/community/state-taxes/discussion/i-live-in-nc-but-work-in-sc-while-filing-in-nc-do-i-put-income-earned-amp-taxed-by-sc-in-other-state/00/481850/amp

if your argument against the Panthers is because it creates sprawl, I get it.  I don’t necessarily think moving the HQ 25 miles south in another part of the metro is promoting sprawl, but that is a different argument.  Do I think it is wise to spend State money on a museum very specific to Greenville, no.  Do I think providing tax credits to the city of Greenville is great for resident in other parts of S.C., no.  Do I think ICAR was a good investment, no.  But, those event may be more acceptable because you love Greenville (not sure why you don’t live there).  And, because I want to see S.C. be a better place, I understand why and the state does give money for projects in other parts of S.C., so it is what it is.  As for the Panthers, this will create much more development around the site which builds a wider tax base.  This is a classic case of it not being in greenville, therefore it’s not worthy, nothing more. 

Besides, urban development isn’t restricted to Main St development. 

Edited October 20, 2019 by CLT_sc

[gman]

Let the Charlotte folks worry about Charlotte and the Greenville folks worry about Greenville. My goodness. Both cities are great. Both have great leaders. Both have good people as citizens. Let's move on to the topic. 

[GvilleSC]

Gosh- it’s been years and still butt hurt over  ICAR. Clearly you haven’t checked the pulse on Innovista, which you’re not upset about at all. Things are only bad to you when they happen in a Greenville. What a negative view of the world! Poor thing.

[distortedlogic]

28 minutes ago, CLT_sc said:

 But, those event may be more acceptable because I love Charlotte(not sure why you don’t live there).  And, because I want to see Charlotte be a better place, I understand why and the state does give money for projects in other parts of S.C., so it is what it is.  This is a classic case of it not being in Charlotte, therefore it’s not worthy, nothing more.

Here you go, fixed it for ya! 

All I had to do was change the "Greenville" designations to "Charlotte" and it perfectly sums up your position on the Greenville forum. 

[gman430]

https://www.greenvilleonline.com/story/news/2019/10/22/where-your-candidates-greenville-sc-city-council-stand-election-2-weeks-away/4007641002/

[NewlyUpstate]

“Now is the time that we have to elect someone that’s going to balance both neighborhoods and a strong economy,” said DeWorken, pointing out that he believes Greenville is growing improperly. "If you like high density, don’t vote for me. If you like high-rise apartments, don’t vote for me.”

Welp, I know who isn't getting my vote.  How about you say what you are for instead of what you are against?  From this statement, I assume he just wants to take a snapshot of Greenville in it's current state and not change anything, why don't we just make ourselves a UNESCO world heritage city while we're at it?

[johnpro318]

1 hour ago, NewlyUpstate said:

“Now is the time that we have to elect someone that’s going to balance both neighborhoods and a strong economy,” said DeWorken, pointing out that he believes Greenville is growing improperly. "If you like high density, don’t vote for me. If you like high-rise apartments, don’t vote for me.”

Welp, I know who isn't getting my vote.  How about you say what you are for instead of what you are against?  From this statement, I assume he just wants to take a snapshot of Greenville in it's current state and not change anything, why don't we just make ourselves a UNESCO world heritage city while we're at it?

Yeah I will not be voting for him. His campaign material convinced me of that. 

[gman430]

Quote

DeWorken cites his upbringing as an inspiration to his belief that affordable housing is important. He served on the Greenville Transit Authority board at a time when the FBI had to be called in to investigate the agency's finances.

That's all I needed to read. If you served on any board where the FBI  had to investigate your finances, you definitely won't be getting my vote. 

Edited October 23, 2019 by gman430