The Transportation and Mass Transit Megathread

[smeagolsfree]

23 minutes ago, donNdonelson2 said:

Almost nobody pays for street parking downtown. On any given weekday you can walk past dozens and dozens of cars with the meters flashing, indicating “time expired.” There is almost no enforcement, why would anyone pay? (Of course, if I didn’t pay I would have a ticket and be towed within fifteen minutes!) 

Bet you look at the tag, its a handicap tag or there is a handicap placard hanging on the mirror. They always park free.

[carolina1792]

Raleigh doesn't have a real transit funding mandate--there's a mild transit tax that will barely make a dent in funding transit improvements----HOWEVER the federal government is just throwing money into Raleigh-area transit projects.  Nashville needs to take notes. 

 

* Raleigh Union Station (AMTRAK) - Cost $110 million; the federal government funded $70 million of the project cost.

* Raleigh Union Station Bus Station (BRT hub/bus connection) - Costs greatly reduced by having a public-private partnership, city builds the bus station platform, the developer builds a 30 story tower on top. The federal government will provide $20 million+ to the cost of the project.

* Go+ New Bern Ave Bus Rapid Transit route: The city received several federal grants I believe it's over $40 million of the projected $70 million cost of the first phase. 

There's 3 or 4 other BRT routes that are being developed and they will likely also get federal support. 

Commuter Rail is also on the table and there's an expectation of generous federal support. 

 

Notice how very little support the state is providing towards mass transit projects in the Raleigh area. 

Edited October 16, 2021 by carolina1792
Added justification.

[rookzie]

On 10/15/2021 at 10:35 PM, carolina1792 said:

Raleigh doesn't have a real transit funding mandate--there's a mild transit tax that will barely make a dent in funding transit improvements----HOWEVER the federal government is just throwing money into Raleigh-area transit projects.  Nashville needs to take notes. 

 

* Raleigh Union Station (AMTRAK) - Cost $110 million; the federal government funded $70 million of the project cost.

* Raleigh Union Station Bus Station (BRT hub/bus connection) - Costs greatly reduced by having a public-private partnership, city builds the bus station platform, the developer builds a 30 story tower on top. The federal government will provide $20 million+ to the cost of the project.

* Go+ New Bern Ave Bus Rapid Transit route: The city received several federal grants I believe it's over $40 million of the projected $70 million cost of the first phase. 

There's 3 or 4 other BRT routes that are being developed and they will likely also get federal support. 

Commuter Rail is also on the table and there's an expectation of generous federal support. 

 

Notice how very little support the state is providing towards mass transit projects in the Raleigh area. 

I still give many "hats off" to the State of NC" for what it's done for intercity passenger rail over the last 35 years, compared to the lone service we have here ─ once-daily each way service at only Newbern, TN and Memphis (Amtrak trains 58, 59) between Chicago and New Orleans.

Amtrak first introduced the Carolinian in 1984, in partnership with the state of North Carolina, to operate passenger rail along an intramural state corridor and connecting with the Northeast Corridor (Boston-NY-DC).  I rode that train along the then-still-active route spanning Richmond, Petersburg, Norlina and Henderson, NC, and Raleigh, then served by the old Seaboard (SAL - Seaboard Air Line Railroad) station in spring 1985.  That service restored passenger rail lost in April 1964, and which I used to witness during nights in the late 1950s and early '60s along highway US-70 between Raleigh and Greensboro.  It was a 1-year experiment with ridership exceeding expectations, but with poor marketing.  Re-instituted in 1990, that service, then rerouted along a longer path through Selma and Rocky Mount, NC (former Atlantic Coast Line RR) has remained intact.  Essentially it connects activity centers between Raleigh (in Northeast Central NC) and Charlotte (in the Southwest Central Carolina Piedmont.

NCDOT has somewhat prioritized passenger rail, with the addition over time of three daily round trips for dedicated service between Raleigh and Charlotte (marketed as the Piedmont trains).  That includes Cary NC, Durham, Greensboro, High Point, and other intermediate points.  That makes it 4 daily round trips, when combined with the Carolinian service ─ Charlotte - New York.  Except on certain holidays such as Christmas Day, when the trains seem empty and everyone is gouging and stuffing the face, the trains have been well patronized, even at moderate track speeds (to 79 mph).  During my 16+ years of mostly semi-annual roundtrips on that service through 2006, those trains often have been even over-crowded.

Frequency and marketing and incremental infrastructure upgrades have been made possible up to now, only because NCDOT has invested over 1 billion $ of state and federal funds in state-supported intercity passenger rail service, including renovation or construction of train stations, track work improvements, safety improvements and corridor preservation.  While very little state support has been garnered for urban transit, nevertheless, NC has done much to spawn and to engender passenger rail into evolving into a regional "utility" (as it were).  Under operation by Amtrak crews, this service has been designated officially as part of Amtrak's Northeast Regional branch service.

Generally but with some notable exceptions, most U.S. state support, if at all, is limited to commuter-rail.  That includes Tennessee's own but modest Music City Star.  Although I no longer have much reason to pass through NC anymore (after the passing of native family members), I finally got to visit Raleigh's new Union Station (RUS), during my brief stop on Amtrak's Silver Star from Miami to DC last June.  NCDOT did contribute close to 13% of the station's costs, funded primarily with Federal funding of some 61%.  Commuter rail has been on the horizon in the "Triangle" region of NC.  Raleigh Union Station not only was built as a multi-modal transport facility, but it also is the first in the state to have high platforms, a provision that facilitates passenger boarding and alighting by providing direct floor-level entry.  This eliminates the need for train crew to open and close hinged step-traps at the car vestibules and to place a portable step on ground-level platforms for safe passenger handling.   While  frequently found in the Northeast Corridor centers between DC and Boston (as well as the Harrisburg - Philly "Keystone Corridor" extension), high platforms are common found mostly on heavy-rail transit ("Metro"s ─  subways, and "L"s) and some light rail operated as small Metros.  NCDOT was most instrumental in the collaborative planning of the rail portion of that station.  Station high platforms increasingly are being applied at commuter rail facilities, such as in NW Indiana, but they historically have been used with Chicago's METRA Electric District (formerly Illinois Central RR), NJTransit, and NYCMTA's Long Island RR.

Finally, in a recently created consortial agreement among Amtrak and the State of Virginia, NCDOT is slowly but surely gearing up to contribute to the Southeast High[er] Speed Rail Corridor project (SEHSR).  Following Virginia's contract with CSXT to purchase RoW for both expansion and for usage rights, NCDOT made the case and received federal funding to purchase another CSXT segment between the VA-NC border and Raleigh.  These high platforms at RUS are part of the big-picture of long-range planning for shared commuter-rail and the SEHSR project.

Edited October 21, 2021 by rookzie

[NissanvilleTitans]

I'm dumb when it comes to this but why can't we do like California and put a train in between the eastbound and westside sides of the interstates? I assume the state already owns the land. I-40 and I-24 would cover cities. Seems simple enough, I'm sure it's not for reason but it seems that way.

Edited October 16, 2021 by NissanvilleTitans

[smeagolsfree]

1 hour ago, NissanvilleTitans said:

I'm dumb when it comes to this but why can't we do like California and put a train in between the eastbound and westside sides of the interstates? I assume the state already owns the land. I-40 and I-24 would cover cities. Seems simple enough, I'm sure it's not for reason but it seems that way.

I am sure there are places it would work, but others such as right thru the middle of the downtown areas there is probably no right of ways available. Also in areas where it is very mountainous, there’s could be issues as there may not be a good place for the tracks. 

I do think the right of way is that wide though, I am not sure, but someone may know for sure and I would be it may vary in some places. Like I 24 between the Boro and Nashville, I would bet a majority of the right of way has been used for the 8 lane. Then you have to take into account the number of bridges that would have to be built. Not a cheap option. I am just playing devils advocate here, so don’t shoot me.

[rookzie]

Before any new commitment to develop a new passenger rail route is undertaken, at the very least, DOTs need to assess risk factors with any private of public grade (level) crossings traversed along a proposed route.   Vehicular crossings most problematic are those which are most likely to become fouled by heavy roadway equipment or commercial semi-trailer rigs, the latter of which 1) may bottom out (become centered) on elevated or depressed roadway surfaces at track level; or 2) may be located close to an intersection where a roadway closely runs parallel to the tracks and where vehicular traffic may turn onto or from the cross road to negotiate that crossing.  Local pushback always mounts, when a grade crossing is closed, but passenger fatalities occasionally if not often have pushed the scale in favor of permanent closure.  Separation of grade is often the most expensive and underfunded option.

While it may not be widely known or noted, some of the most horrific and an property-damaging incidents involve inexperienced truckers, who either get lost or who deliberately avoid prescribed routes (for any of a number or reasons).  Modern passenger-train locomotives, always provisioned to run faster than freight locomotives (where weight and tractive effort are required for revenue tonnage-hauling), are also more susceptible to derailment, when they become entangled at speed with heavy equipment or a large commercial vehicle.  Onboard passenger's lives can be put at risk, whether or not  the train derails, as a result of an incident.  

 The Heartland Flyer (821 southbound, 822 northbound) serves a potential corridor between Fort Worth and OKC.  Currently a once-daily service, this corridor is candidate for two additional daily round trips of this corridor, with a proposal to extend one such run to KCMO.  The Fort Worth-OKC route is a quintessential scenario and paradigm of nationwide proposed or existing (underserved or otherwise) regional passenger-rail corridors touted for infrastructure improvements ─ whether or not any appreciable change comes to fruition concurrent with the current and next two administrations.  At the very least, the property damage that ensues almost surely will cause a shortage of available railway equipment required to protect and sustain a particular passenger service route.   New passenger cars and locomotives costs millions of dollars per unit ─ let alone the costs in material and labor to repair equipment involved in a collision or derailment, and based on the practicability and practicality of repairs.

Last Friday, 10-15-2021, Amtrak's northbound Heartland Flyer, struck a semi-trailer auto-hauler, after the rig became stuck from "centering" (bottoming out in the middle) on the track.  The collision sent vehicles and debris flying everywhere. Several passenger were  injured in the collision, when some of the shrapnel penetrated windows of the passenger railcar in tow, immediately behind the leading locomotive (with a locomotive at each end).   The lead locomotive also appeared to have become derailed while remaining upright along the gauge of the track.   A current shortage of railway passenger rolling stock might require a bit of taking from Bill in Michigan to feed Bob in Missouri, until foreign-based vendors (in particular Siemens Mobility) can deliver the newest generation of equipment.

[video - © Brandon Sampson & ABC News; photos - courtesy Love County [OK] Sheriff's Office]

Edited October 18, 2021 by rookzie

[smeagolsfree]

I wonder if these crossing are marked for trucks not to even attempt to cross or if they are the truck drivers just ignore the warnings. I know there is a shortage of drivers and they are probably getting people from the bottom of the barrel, but mistake’s like this are just stupid and dangerous.

[PruneTracy]

4 hours ago, smeagolsfree said:

I wonder if these crossing are marked for trucks not to even attempt to cross or if they are the truck drivers just ignore the warnings. I know there is a shortage of drivers and they are probably getting people from the bottom of the barrel, but mistake’s like this are just stupid and dangerous.

Back when diagnostic team reviews were more of a thing at TDOT my old firm had one of the on-call contracts to perform them. I think we did over 120 DTRs at highway-rail grade crossings across the state and every one that had an incident involving a truck getting stuck at the crossing (which is not the same as an incident where a train strikes a truck at the crossing) was already signed properly.

Part of it is probably inexperienced or careless truck drivers (and not always professionals; plenty of people driving rentals get stuck too) but they can also be put in tough situations. If you're on a local road and come up on a crossing without a side road or other place to turn a truck around your options are basically to either back up to the nearest turnaround you can fit a truck in or hope you can squeeze across. The former option is more or less a guaranteed ruckus but you might get away with the latter.

On the other hand some crossings seem to attract bad decisions. The crossing at Post Road in Belle Meade gets a truck stuck on it about once a year in spite of the fact that it's marked at all approaches, has easy detours in any direction, and is very visible. Weird things happen at highway-rail grade crossings regardless of whether a truck is involved. We looked at a fatality incident that was somewhere between Chattanooga and Knoxville (I think it was in Dayton but we did so many they run together) where a driver turned onto the tracks at the crossing, drove down the rails a hundred feet or so before getting stuck on a sign post, then got hit by a train trying to push his car off the tracks.

As a general PSA there's a sign at every crossing that has a number to call and a crossing ID number if there's a problem at that crossing. Call that number first, not 911 (unless you're calling 911 for another reason). The call centers for those are run by the railroads themselves and they can stop a train a lot quicker than the police or EMS dispatch.

[markhollin]

Mayor Cooper is proposing a bridge for CSX tracks to cross over Sadler Ave. in SE Nashville.

Residents living a neighborhood whose only access point passes over the railroad tracks have complained about issues with train blockages for several years, according to the mayor's office. 

The project would be funded by CSX Transportation, The Tennessee Department of Transportation and Metro Nashville. Metro's contribution would be for 10% of the project's currently unannounced cost. The project still needs approval from the council.

More at The Tennessean here:

https://www.tennessean.com/story/news/local/2021/10/18/nashville-mayor-wants-build-railroad-bridge-over-sadler-avenue/8513422002/

The spot of the overpass is at the center of this frame:

[PaulChinetti]

This is a constant struggle for them, not to mention wildly not safe. Colby Sledge has been working on it for as long as I can remember. 

[smeagolsfree]

No one should have to fork over the money other than CSX. Not the State or Metro. CSX has plenty of money and they are the ones that caused the issue.

[PaulChinetti]

CSX is a constant problem in South Nashville. Nobody seems to want to do anything about it, or cares to…

As the area continues to get built up with larger and larger projects maybe the city/state will start to care. 

[smeagolsfree]

Nashville included in the Federal Rail Adm. rail study to include connections north to Louisville and points North.

https://www.tennessean.com/story/news/2021/10/22/federal-railroad-administration-midwest-regional-rail-plan-nashville-southeast-train-network/6133372001/

 

Link to the study:

https://railroads.dot.gov/sites/fra.dot.gov/files/2021-10/Final%20Report-MWRRP%20with%20Appendices%20PDFa.pdf

 

 

[UrbanWes03]

10 hours ago, smeagolsfree said:

Nashville included in the Federal Rail Adm. rail study to include connections north to Louisville and points North.

https://www.tennessean.com/story/news/2021/10/22/federal-railroad-administration-midwest-regional-rail-plan-nashville-southeast-train-network/6133372001/

 

Link to the study:

https://railroads.dot.gov/sites/fra.dot.gov/files/2021-10/Final%20Report-MWRRP%20with%20Appendices%20PDFa.pdf

 

 

I saw this a few days ago and was pleased that they finally connected Nashville up to Louisville and on up to Chicago. Also including it as a Regional/Core Express route, which is the 2nd highest level of service, is very welcome.

The report also included some pretty exciting growth statistics for Nashville. It looks like the population basically doubles and the pop. growth rate is almost 70% from 2015 to 2055! Hopefully this positions Nashville well for big investments in rail.

 

[markhollin]

Kids install glow-in-the-dark crosswalk:

[Archibum]

Would love to see more permanent traffic calming devices and bumpouts like this installation. Used to ride my bike through a similar solution on Lincoln Ave in Chicago and it dramatically shifted the feel of the intersection from car centric to pedestrian focused. https://www.site-design.com/lakeview-lincoln-avenue/

[BnaBreaker]

1 hour ago, Archibum said:

Would love to see more permanent traffic calming devices and bumpouts like this installation. Used to ride my bike through a similar solution on Lincoln Ave in Chicago and it dramatically shifted the feel of the intersection from car centric to pedestrian focused. https://www.site-design.com/lakeview-lincoln-avenue/

I LOVE those bump-outs.  Chicago has so many intersections like that where more than two streets are converging at one point, and it turns it into a real mess for anyone not in a car.  I wish they'd do that everywhere!  The intersections should have been designed like that to begin with... but alas, the car reigns supreme, even in Chicago.  

[Archibum]

4 hours ago, BnaBreaker said:

I LOVE those bump-outs.  Chicago has so many intersections like that where more than two streets are converging at one point, and it turns it into a real mess for anyone not in a car.  I wish they'd do that everywhere!  The intersections should have been designed like that to begin with... but alas, the car reigns supreme, even in Chicago.  

Just riding down Lincoln you get the full experience. Nice comfortable intersections like the one above, and then intersections like Belmont where you pray you don't get hit by a car rushing to hit that left turn.

[UrbanWes03]

Hopefully the 2nd Ave. reconstruction will help spur more pedestrian friendly amenities in Nashville once people see how useful they can be.

[andywildman]

I've been thinking about this growth plus the I-65 widening for the last day or two. On the north side of town, what will the bottleneck be once this project is completed? Ever since they widened I-65 through Madison, the choke point has been two-fold, at the Bypass exit for Vietnam Vets and the bottleneck at Long Hollow Pike through Millersville. Will this yield smooth-sailing  all the way in to the I-24 / Trinity Lane area? Will commuters headed back to Portland from the city have any slowdowns after they get under Fern Avenue?

After this, what's the next phase of construction for Nashville's interstates? Without a "top half" of 840, the downtown loop is going to get worse, not just from commuters but also the brunt of all these trucks we're adding for distribution centers. But cutting up through Sumner and Robertson Counties is probably even less appealing than Marsha's double-decker interstate proposal, right?

[smeagolsfree]

I would hope they would not go from 3 to 2 to 7 lanes.  You would think they would have this planned out. I am hoping that TDOT has a good plan! MY initial hope was for a four lane instead of three lanes as four will not be enough and they will find this out the painful way.

[BnaBreaker]

I'm all for this I-65 North modernization project as I've stated many times here, but the thing is, when looking long term, we're going to have to draw the line somewhere in regards to how wide we make the interstates.  I don't know where that line is, but widening them indefinitely is not a feasible traffic control strategy.  At some point we're going to have to get serious, not just in Nashville, but as a society, about investing in alternative forms of inter-city and intra-city transportation, as well as building our communities in such a way that we aren't all completely reliant on our cars for absolutely everything.  

Edited October 26, 2021 by BnaBreaker

[MLBrumby]

Forgive me folks as I'm doing this from memory.  I believe I saw here on UP that all of I-65 from the end of the currently wide (6-8 lane) stretch to Long Hollow Pike(?) all the way up to the KY line will be widened to 6 lanes in 3 roughly simultaneous segments.  This first one from the border south is approximately 10 miles. I think the whole distance is 25 miles. 

[Bos2Nash]

14 hours ago, MLBrumby said:

Forgive me folks as I'm doing this from memory.  I believe I saw here on UP that all of I-65 from the end of the currently wide (6-8 lane) stretch to Long Hollow Pike(?) all the way up to the KY line will be widened to 6 lanes in 3 roughly simultaneous segments.  This first one from the border south is approximately 10 miles. I think the whole distance is 25 miles. 

From the TDOT website:

Quote

Due to the significant length of the corridor, the I-65 improvements have been separated into smaller sections or phases as noted below.

from Rivergate Parkway to near SR 41 (US 31W)
from near SR 41 (US 31W) to near SR 257 (Bethel Road)
from SR 257 (Bethel Road) to SR 25 (Main Street)
from near SR 25 (Main Street) to near SR 109
from SR 109 to Kentucky State Line - completed

The SR 25 to SR 109 is what was just awarded to Jones Brothers for the $160 million

[PruneTracy]

18 hours ago, BnaBreaker said:

I'm all for this I-65 North modernization project as I've stated many times here, but the thing is, when looking long term, we're going to have to draw the line somewhere in regards to how wide we make the interstates.  I don't know where that line is, but widening them indefinitely is not a feasible traffic control strategy.  At some point we're going to have to get serious, not just in Nashville, but as a society, about investing in alternative forms of inter-city and intra-city transportation, as well as building our communities in such a way that we aren't all completely reliant on our cars for absolutely everything.  

Just to be clear, the I-65 widening is not really geared towards lessening commuter congestion. I think I said on here before that the truck percentages on this stretch are as high as 40%. It's true there are other options for moving these goods but I-65 is a fairly critical freight corridor for the continent and supply chains aren't getting any less fragile.

21 hours ago, andywildman said:

I've been thinking about this growth plus the I-65 widening for the last day or two. On the north side of town, what will the bottleneck be once this project is completed? Ever since they widened I-65 through Madison, the choke point has been two-fold, at the Bypass exit for Vietnam Vets and the bottleneck at Long Hollow Pike through Millersville. Will this yield smooth-sailing  all the way in to the I-24 / Trinity Lane area? Will commuters headed back to Portland from the city have any slowdowns after they get under Fern Avenue?

As a percentage of total traffic there aren't really enough commuters from Portland, White House, etc. for this project to move the needle much on congestion. That being said, the slowdowns at Long Hollow Pike should go away once all segments of the project are completed because it will remove the lane drop at that exit. Vietnam Veterans Parkway is going to continue to be an issue just because of the volume of commuter traffic entering/exiting I-65 there.

21 hours ago, andywildman said:

After this, what's the next phase of construction for Nashville's interstates? Without a "top half" of 840, the downtown loop is going to get worse, not just from commuters but also the brunt of all these trucks we're adding for distribution centers. But cutting up through Sumner and Robertson Counties is probably even less appealing than Marsha's double-decker interstate proposal, right?

TDOT is currently in the planning stages of cleaning up the mess that is the Ellington Parkway / Spring Street / whatever other roadways interchange on I-24 in the inner loop. This is fine on its own but it really needs to be coupled with a project to widen Ellington Parkway and fix deficiencies in its interchange ramps, followed by designating Ellington Parkway and portions of the inner loop as I-465 (or whatever I-65 loop number). This would better utilize the roadway in off-peak hours and get some traffic off the I-24/I-65 concurrence near Trinity Lane.

The second item would be converting Briley Parkway between I-24 and I-40 (near the airport) to fully controlled access and making all of Briley Parkway I-224 (or whatever I-24 loop number). This provides a bypass for I-24 traffic through Nashville and also picks up the not-insignificant traffic between I-65 north of town and I-24 east of town, as well as taking some pressure off the inner loop. But all Briley interchanges not on I-40 would need fairly substantial reconstruction.

The inner loop itself needs a lot of work but that horse has been beaten to death.

This also isn't technically an Interstate project but the Portland bypass will help divert some traffic onto SR 109 (which provides a fairly high-speed link from the TN/KY border to I-840 in Wilson County). But it faces the same issue as the projects listed above. You really need controlled access and Interstate shields to get national traffic diverted off a roadway. If it were up to me I would have at least run I-840 up to Gallatin and connected it to SR 386, making the whole thing controlled access.

It would be really nice if there were a comparable project to SR 109 from I-840's western terminus north to Clarksville, say along SR 48 and SR 13. I'm not sure how the connection to I-24 in Clarksville would work; there was supposed to be an extension of SR 374 across the river at one point.