SunRail

[Ivanhoe]

I wonder if this new Universal special district will be as heavy handed with DeSantis’ appointed people (largely who have no business being there).  In fairness, Universal deserves an unqualified group of Tallahassee cronies to govern their piece of the pie too.

[jack]

1 hour ago, Ivanhoe said:

I wonder if this new Universal special district will be as heavy handed with DeSantis’ appointed people (largely who have no business being there).  In fairness, Universal deserves an unqualified group of Tallahassee cronies to govern their piece of the pie too.

Those board members that were utterly unqualified and publicly bragged about forcing Disney to change their ways are no longer on the board. The new board chair is a local pro business republican as it always should have been. 

[aent]

15 hours ago, codypet said:

Blarg.  "Let's make a theme park entertainment district"  "Let's keep the 3rd largest theme park in the region next door out of it"

The district is to help cover Universal/OCCC/Brightline specific infrastructure costs. Even the north Universal property is not part of the district, its not a generic theme park district. SeaWorld would not want to be part of the district.

7 hours ago, Ivanhoe said:

I wonder if this new Universal special district will be as heavy handed with DeSantis’ appointed people (largely who have no business being there).  In fairness, Universal deserves an unqualified group of Tallahassee cronies to govern their piece of the pie too.

Unlike RCID, this new district complies with Florida statutes, and does not exempt Universal from any rules everyone else has to follow. It is a method of giving a tax exemption and financing mechanism for Universal building direct infrastructure projects only. Its a very limited district in power.

[jrs2]

On 5/10/2024 at 9:57 AM, jliv said:

My suspicion is an expanded special district will be needed to allow for additional property tax assessments on the properties which will benefit the most from the Sunshine Corridor, since a sales tax increase is a more difficult mountain to climb.  A $4 billion line mostly benefiting tourists is going to be a hard sell for Orange County voters considering a sales tax increase.  However, there is a clear case that adding more lanes to I-4 will never solve that traffic clusterf***, and a fixed guideway system is the only way to move the growing number of visitors (and I think there is a lot more growth possible).  Property tax increases are probably the only other likely options.

I don't think that's necessarily the case. if there is no accident or lane(s) closure for whatever reason, I-4 always moves.   The only time there has been a backup has been when there has been a lane(s) closure for whatever reason.  The stretch between Disney and US 27, though, is because of those darn Zetans and their gravity rays.

[jrs2]

Y'all remember all my lunatic ravings about how Comcast/Universal was behind all things Disney, ala RCID and BL?  Well, go to Google map and look at the retention pond just south of those parking decks and see the pretty NBC/Comcast sign right there in the middle.

That's new.

That confirms everything I've been preaching from my David Karesh pulpit.

come...join my cult.

[jrs2]

[codypet]

[jrs2]

https://mynews13.com/fl/orlando/news/2024/05/01/sunrail-marks-10-years-with-expansion-on-the-horizon

[IAmFloridaBorn]

[orlandocity87]

15 hours ago, jrs2 said:

https://mynews13.com/fl/orlando/news/2024/05/01/sunrail-marks-10-years-with-expansion-on-the-horizon

The article linked to this presentation, which I think is the most informative I've seen for the different SunRail options. The last option (3A + 3B + 3D) seems like a no-brainer. 

[codypet]

I feel like by 2040 you're gonna get more riders than that if this gets built out.  Also less than $400 million to us the existing infrastructure to get to MCO?  I felt like that would have been in the $100 m space with track upgrades, and rolling stock.

[orlandocity87]

1 hour ago, codypet said:

I feel like by 2040 you're gonna get more riders than that if this gets built out.  Also less than $400 million to us the existing infrastructure to get to MCO?  I felt like that would have been in the $100 m space with track upgrades, and rolling stock.

I was confused by that, too. I feel like they could start that service today if they wanted to: just update schedules and signage, and divert a few existing trains. I'm exaggerating, but $400M feels steep—unless they're talking about nights, weekend, and substantially higher frequency. In either case, it needs to be done asap.

[codypet]

6 minutes ago, orlandocity87 said:

I was confused by that, too. I feel like they could start that service today if they wanted to: just update schedules and signage, and divert a few existing trains. I'm exaggerating, but $400M feels steep—unless they're talking about nights, weekend, and substantially higher frequency. In either case, it needs to be done asap.

If they wanted to do it in a pinch today, they probably COULD, but it wouldn't be effective.  The OUC line has I think a 5 or 10 mph speed limit, and then they'd have to travel through the Brightline maintenance facility and then the platforms wouldn't fit Sunrail.

So that $400m would be reconstructing a new line from Terminal C to the OUC line outside the Brightline terminal, and then upgrading the track and signals on the OUC line to bring its speeds up to 35/40mph?  Then you've got rolling stock and cost of more frequent service.  I just don't see it being $400 million.

Edited May 15 by codypet

[jrs2]

56 minutes ago, codypet said:

If they wanted to do it in a pinch today, they probably COULD, but it wouldn't be effective.  The OUC line has I think a 5 or 10 mph speed limit, and then they'd have to travel through the Brightline maintenance facility and then the platforms wouldn't fit Sunrail.

So that $400m would be reconstructing a new line from Terminal C to the OUC line outside the Brightline terminal, and then upgrading the track and signals on the OUC line to bring its speeds up to 35/40mph?  Then you've got rolling stock and cost of more frequent service.  I just don't see it being $400 million.

the original price tag was like $250M at least 6-7 years ago for the OUC spur usage, and that was before the Maintenance Facility was built. 

Maybe OUC wants their track improved as part of the deal, at least from Mainline to Maintenance Facility (or maybe farther still).

Also, the way the OUC spur flares out to the north and to the south, I assume the Sunrail double tracked portion would also be double tracked there as well.  I doubt they are thinking of putting bridges there so those tracks do not intersect...maybe they are?

 

4 hours ago, orlandocity87 said:

The article linked to this presentation, which I think is the most informative I've seen for the different SunRail options. The last option (3A + 3B + 3D) seems like a no-brainer. 

South I-Drive Station...this is the first time I'm seeing that.  I wonder how far south that would be...CFLA Pkwy? Westwood? Premium Outlets near Darryl Carter?  Gaylord Palms/ Xentury City?

[codypet]

10 minutes ago, jrs2 said:

the original price tag was like $250M at least 6-7 years ago for the OUC spur usage, and that was before the Maintenance Facility was built. 

Maybe OUC wants their track improved as part of the deal, at least from Mainline to Maintenance Facility (or maybe farther still).

Also, the way the OUC spur flares out to the north and to the south, I assume the Sunrail double tracked portion would also be double tracked there as well.  I doubt they are thinking of putting bridges there so those tracks do not intersect...maybe they are?

 

South I-Drive Station...this is the first time I'm seeing that.  I wonder how far south that would be...CFLA Pkwy? Westwood? Premium Outlets near Darryl Carter?  Gaylord Palms/ Xentury City?

Tracks intersecting is pretty common and its managed pretty well by positive train control.

[blt23]

At this point does anyone even know what’s being contemplated for the South I-drive and Disney Springs stations?

Back when Brightline was proposing the 417 route, their agreement with Disney was for a stub-end station that would have pretty directly connected to the existing Disney springs bus loop. Brightline’s switch to pursuing the northern sunshine corridor option made that original layout impractical (or impossible), so they ended that agreement with Disney and then we all saw Disney go pout about it and publicly distance themselves from the Sunshine Corridor due to it not working for them.

Instead, the Sunshine Corridor proposal very clearly included a “South I-drive” station in the southeast quadrant of the I-4 and 536/Epcot Center Dr interchange as a near WDW alternative. But now it seems that a true Disney Springs station, at least for Sunrail, is somehow back on the table?

It doesn’t seem like it would be particularly difficult to get a Sunrail only spur from the I-4 corridor to near the Disney Springs bus loop where Disney could get their connectivity, but not so much if it must go through that South I-drive station first. And yet that still seems to somehow be what they’re implying, so I’m very confused.

[aent]

11 hours ago, codypet said:

If they wanted to do it in a pinch today, they probably COULD, but it wouldn't be effective.  The OUC line has I think a 5 or 10 mph speed limit, and then they'd have to travel through the Brightline maintenance facility and then the platforms wouldn't fit Sunrail.

So that $400m would be reconstructing a new line from Terminal C to the OUC line outside the Brightline terminal, and then upgrading the track and signals on the OUC line to bring its speeds up to 35/40mph?  Then you've got rolling stock and cost of more frequent service.  I just don't see it being $400 million.

Its my understanding that the OUC tracks have been determined to be entirely unusable by Sunrail or Brightline. The proposals all include new tracks in the existing ROW from what I have heard. I haven't heard in a while, but previously OUC wanted to remain on separate tracks from Brightline/Sunrail, so it could potentially involve building 2 new sets of tracks on top of moving (or rebuilding) some existing tracks to make room within the existing ROW.

1 hour ago, blt23 said:

At this point does anyone even know what’s being contemplated for the South I-drive and Disney Springs stations?

Back when Brightline was proposing the 417 route, their agreement with Disney was for a stub-end station that would have pretty directly connected to the existing Disney springs bus loop. Brightline’s switch to pursuing the northern sunshine corridor option made that original layout impractical (or impossible), so they ended that agreement with Disney and then we all saw Disney go pout about it and publicly distance themselves from the Sunshine Corridor due to it not working for them.

Instead, the Sunshine Corridor proposal very clearly included a “South I-drive” station in the southeast quadrant of the I-4 and 536/Epcot Center Dr interchange as a near WDW alternative. But now it seems that a true Disney Springs station, at least for Sunrail, is somehow back on the table?

It doesn’t seem like it would be particularly difficult to get a Sunrail only spur from the I-4 corridor to near the Disney Springs bus loop where Disney could get their connectivity, but not so much if it must go through that South I-drive station first. And yet that still seems to somehow be what they’re implying, so I’m very confused.

On the original proposal, Disney was very clear that the 417 route was a condition of them accepting a station on their property. When the route changed, Disney did not want it, as Disney deeply fears a direct connection from Universal to Disney, making it much easier for those who are primarily visiting Disney to escape Disney for a couple days to go to Universal and other area attractions.

As mentioned in the attractions thread, the RCID replacement with CFTOD had a lot to do with Universal lobbying, and I think Universal wants a Disney stop (for the same reason, they think they're going to have a lot more people take a few days off their Disney vacation to visit Universal vs those who take a few days off their Universal vacation to visit Disney, that likely is happening anyways for everyone who wants to as Universal has not been successful at really keeping people on property, at least historically).

I've heard that the CFTOD was going to push for a station on the land they control within Disney, whether Disney wants it or not, because there is a desire for the state to show the nation that Brightline is the right way to do rail (with no taxpayer funding... well, no state taxes since after the original 4 stations, other levels of government started giving Brightline money for building the additional stations), and CA HSR is the wrong way to do it, and a Disney stop is deemed pretty critical to getting ridership to make that point.

With the Disney-RCID-DeSantis lawsuit settling, there clearly has been some agreement made between Disney and DeSantis about what the CFTOD is going to do... as part of the settlement, Disney agreed to invalidate its less minute development plan approvals before RCID was dissolved and replaced with CFTOD, and the settlement clearly involved replacing the entire CFTOD board with a group that both Disney and DeSantis approved of, and there appears to be some understanding of approvals for future development that all parties have agreed to. I think part of that includes a train station on Disney's property, something the state wanted, in exchange for approving most of what Disney wanted on it. I don't think Disney is happy about this, but they might have had no choice in order to get the lawsuit with DeSantis settled and to stop the bleeding from that ongoing lawsuit. Given that, the positioning on Disney's property may be VERY poor, perhaps with Disney trying to get it to be "mainly for employees and locals, not real tourists"

I also think, given what has been done to Brightline, the SunRail tracks have to be rated for higher speeds suitable for Brightline, they're depending on sharing the tracks and potentially collecting rent from one another to help fund the project, but that is also making things more expensive. I'm still confused on where they plan to get funding from, it seems the state has said no to funding this for the moment at least, and Brightline said this route isn't feasible for them to fund. I guess we're hoping some federal dollars appear? Too bad they can't use TDT for this instead of the other projects... seems more... TDT-related then the other projects.

[jliv]

23 hours ago, orlandocity87 said:

The article linked to this presentation, which I think is the most informative I've seen for the different SunRail options. The last option (3A + 3B + 3D) seems like a no-brainer. 

That ridership estimate for 3A+3B (existing Sunrail to MCO and OCCC) doesn’t make sense to me, as it says there would only be 700,000 additional riders in 2026 if the leg was added from Sunrail to OCCC.  That number strikes me as a bit low, considering how many arrivals at MCO I assume would opt to take a train closer to their destination and take a last-mile transportation option from there.  The convenience is undeniable for a hassle-free vacation.

I’d also like to see plans for transit-orientated development near these proposed new stations.  This oddly is missing from the discussions.  I’d hope for something the scale of MiamiCentral or more, given the sheer number of people who would be looking for a place to stay nearby and a bite to eat.  There’s something exciting about stepping out of a train station in a new place and switching to “vacation” mode.  I would hate if all one can look forward to is a parking garage and a bus depot.

 

 

[jrs2]

13 hours ago, blt23 said:

At this point does anyone even know what’s being contemplated for the South I-drive and Disney Springs stations?

Back when Brightline was proposing the 417 route, their agreement with Disney was for a stub-end station that would have pretty directly connected to the existing Disney springs bus loop. Brightline’s switch to pursuing the northern sunshine corridor option made that original layout impractical (or impossible), so they ended that agreement with Disney and then we all saw Disney go pout about it and publicly distance themselves from the Sunshine Corridor due to it not working for them.

Instead, the Sunshine Corridor proposal very clearly included a “South I-drive” station in the southeast quadrant of the I-4 and 536/Epcot Center Dr interchange as a near WDW alternative. But now it seems that a true Disney Springs station, at least for Sunrail, is somehow back on the table?

It doesn’t seem like it would be particularly difficult to get a Sunrail only spur from the I-4 corridor to near the Disney Springs bus loop where Disney could get their connectivity, but not so much if it must go through that South I-drive station first. And yet that still seems to somehow be what they’re implying, so I’m very confused.

likewise, I thought the Disney Springs Station morphed into the South I-Drive Station; I didn't realize per that rendering there would be two stations in and around there.  Maybe the renderer made a mistake.

[jrs2]

3 hours ago, jliv said:

That ridership estimate for 3A+3B (existing Sunrail to MCO and OCCC) doesn’t make sense to me, as it says there would only be 700,000 additional riders in 2026 if the leg was added from Sunrail to OCCC.  That number strikes me as a bit low, considering how many arrivals at MCO I assume would opt to take a train closer to their destination and take a last-mile transportation option from there.  The convenience is undeniable for a hassle-free vacation.

I’d also like to see plans for transit-orientated development near these proposed new stations.  This oddly is missing from the discussions.  I’d hope for something the scale of MiamiCentral or more, given the sheer number of people who would be looking for a place to stay nearby and a bite to eat.  There’s something exciting about stepping out of a train station in a new place and switching to “vacation” mode.  I would hate if all one can look forward to is a parking garage and a bus depot.

Personally I don't like the location of the proposed I-Drive station.  The OCCC property is massive, and this station would be adjacent to that parking deck which is south of Hilton Orlando which is south and east of OCCC N/S Bldg.  Hilton Orlando has a skywalk to the east side of the OCCC N/S Bldg.  What will the Proposed Sunrail/BL station have for connectivity?  You would literally have to expand the OCCC N/S Bldg and double  it in size eastward just to get its mezzanine corridor close to Tradeshow Rd.  Realistically, you would have to triple its size.  No conventioneer is going to walk from that station to the closest entrance.  They will Uber it.  On that note, they can just as easily Uber it from MCO, so, why have a station then?

It HAS to be connecti-vi-tated.  The El goes right to McCormick Place; there is no no-man's land set of parcels you have to suffer between that station and the destination.  This is extremely vital.

I'm going to logisticate some more with the Hyatt Orlando example: Look at Google. You can literally walk from Capital Grille at Pointe Orlando to the Hyatt parking deck, walk nominal steps on that sidewalk under the trees to the covered walkway.  From there, you are covered whether you want to go to the OCCC West Bldg or N/S Bldg the rest of the way; it's amazing for Orlando.  That situation does not exist on the SE side of the Hilton Orlando.  I don't think a convention-class hotel would go there if it can't be connected to The OCCC N/S Bldg with a covered walkway or skywalk- unless The County expanded Hilton Orlando's skywalk to connect to there; that may be too long of a distance.  This isn't Vegas, where casino hotels are these vast mega-properties that all pretty much interconnect with few spaces in between.  This part of I-Drive is full of empty parcels, old motels, and no entertainment complex nearby.

I think they would need to build an enclosed air conditioned station where the Trolley and Lynx or what have you could then shuttle people from there as a minimum.

Otherwise, I agree, a MiamiCentral-type of development would have to be considered, that could 'fill in the gaps' for all types of train users.

[orlandocity87]

3 hours ago, jliv said:

That ridership estimate for 3A+3B (existing Sunrail to MCO and OCCC) doesn’t make sense to me, as it says there would only be 700,000 additional riders in 2026 if the leg was added from Sunrail to OCCC.  That number strikes me as a bit low, considering how many arrivals at MCO I assume would opt to take a train closer to their destination and take a last-mile transportation option from there.  The convenience is undeniable for a hassle-free vacation.

I’d also like to see plans for transit-orientated development near these proposed new stations.  This oddly is missing from the discussions.  I’d hope for something the scale of MiamiCentral or more, given the sheer number of people who would be looking for a place to stay nearby and a bite to eat.  There’s something exciting about stepping out of a train station in a new place and switching to “vacation” mode.  I would hate if all one can look forward to is a parking garage and a bus depot.

 

 

Looks like they're estimating 10% of MCO passengers taking the train to OCCC/Disney Springs? 

In terms of major build-outs, I think we're more likely to see major projects in Lakeland and Tampa. I just don't see a Miami-level of demand for residential and office at any of the Orlando stations, which cater to tourists. 

[jrs2]

56 minutes ago, orlandocity87 said:

Looks like they're estimating 10% of MCO passengers taking the train to OCCC/Disney Springs? 

In terms of major build-outs, I think we're more likely to see major projects in Lakeland and Tampa. I just don't see a Miami-level of demand for residential and office at any of the Orlando stations, which cater to tourists. 

there may be a demand at say the I-Drive Station for Hotel/Apartment.  Since there have been so many apartments being developed lately around I-Drive, there could be a similar demand right there as well.  Hotel could be in the form of a dual-brand and maybe a convention class hotel.  Not sure, though, because of the reasons in my prior post.

[Alleri459]

On 5/16/2024 at 12:17 PM, jrs2 said:

Personally I don't like the location of the proposed I-Drive station.  The OCCC property is massive, and this station would be adjacent to that parking deck which is south of Hilton Orlando which is south and east of OCCC N/S Bldg.  Hilton Orlando has a skywalk to the east side of the OCCC N/S Bldg.  What will the Proposed Sunrail/BL station have for connectivity?  You would literally have to expand the OCCC N/S Bldg and double  it in size eastward just to get its mezzanine corridor close to Tradeshow Rd.  Realistically, you would have to triple its size.  No conventioneer is going to walk from that station to the closest entrance.  They will Uber it.  On that note, they can just as easily Uber it from MCO, so, why have a station then?

It HAS to be connecti-vi-tated.  The El goes right to McCormick Place; there is no no-man's land set of parcels you have to suffer between that station and the destination.  This is extremely vital.

I'm going to logisticate some more with the Hyatt Orlando example: Look at Google. You can literally walk from Capital Grille at Pointe Orlando to the Hyatt parking deck, walk nominal steps on that sidewalk under the trees to the covered walkway.  From there, you are covered whether you want to go to the OCCC West Bldg or N/S Bldg the rest of the way; it's amazing for Orlando.  That situation does not exist on the SE side of the Hilton Orlando.  I don't think a convention-class hotel would go there if it can't be connected to The OCCC N/S Bldg with a covered walkway or skywalk- unless The County expanded Hilton Orlando's skywalk to connect to there; that may be too long of a distance.  This isn't Vegas, where casino hotels are these vast mega-properties that all pretty much interconnect with few spaces in between.  This part of I-Drive is full of empty parcels, old motels, and no entertainment complex nearby.

I think they would need to build an enclosed air conditioned station where the Trolley and Lynx or what have you could then shuttle people from there as a minimum.

Otherwise, I agree, a MiamiCentral-type of development would have to be considered, that could 'fill in the gaps' for all types of train users.

Not sure how feasible this location can be with track curves and the existing structures, but I think a Miami Central style station here could work. 

[jliv]

55 minutes ago, Alleri459 said:

Not sure how feasible this location can be with track curves and the existing structures, but I think a Miami Central style station here could work. 

This month, Universal bought the tract of land south of Destination Parkway and east of the bus superstop.  The tract includes the land to the east with the retention ponds.   I’m guessing this land will part of the donation Universal plans to give for the station.

[jliv]

On 5/11/2024 at 5:42 AM, aent said:

The district is to help cover Universal/OCCC/Brightline specific infrastructure costs. Even the north Universal property is not part of the district, its not a generic theme park district. SeaWorld would not want to be part of the district.

Unlike RCID, this new district complies with Florida statutes, and does not exempt Universal from any rules everyone else has to follow. It is a method of giving a tax exemption and financing mechanism for Universal building direct infrastructure projects only. Its a very limited district in power.

I was just reading about the history of Walt Disney World, and it’s amazing how the district floated through the Florida Legislature in the 1960’s through the power of good ol’ boy networking, with many representatives not even reading the bill.  It was basically “If so-and-so says it’s needed, I trust him.”  Special districts were not unusual in Florida back then; it was the scale of powers the state was essentially granting to a private corporation through a “super-district” which was controversial.  Orange County had immense problems with it, of course.