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poonther Town

poonther

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I think you missed the most important factor of a sign ordinance and that's safety. Talk about freedoms all you want, but if your shotty built, constructed and poorly attached sign falls and hits my head or damages my personal property, that's a huge infringement not only on my freedoms but on my personal safety. Here in a hurricane area well constructed and attached signs also become an important safety factor. Those rolling marquee sign on wheels that many times have the flashing arrow on top became missiles in Hurricane Andrew in Miami-Dade and are now outlawed b/c of this safety issue in many South FL counties/cities.

If there is no limits on the number of signs a property owner is permitted, then he/she could cover all their property in signs and make them as big as they want and place them as close to the road as they want. Then this becomes a safety issue b/c of the distraction and possible sight blockage not to mention my freedom of seeing the hill or view that lies behind your property.

I respectfully disagree w/your entire last paragraph and I think it's appalling that so many people aren't outraged over a lack of sign control=visual pollution. I will just say that I'd never want to live in a community that did not have restrictive zoning, building and sign codes. Without this important trio you may be allowing personal freedom of the property owner, but you could be limiting the freedoms of those surrounding property owners.

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Relient J Hamlet

Relient J

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I don't believe that allowing a property owner his freedom would ever in and of itself contribute to the downfall of his neighbor's property. I would say it's ok to be outraged over visual pollution, but I don't believe it's an issue government should take up.

The safety issue has potential merit, but I'm not convinced it's worth limiting freedom. I see our nation's willingness to limit freedom in the name of safety as one of the problems we're experiencing right now. However, I'm open to that part of your argument.

However, I've seen no one express a safety argument regarding the Gameday Center, but only a displeasure with the aesthetics of the sign in question. I certainly don't believe in making the government force the property owner to change his sign just because I think it's unattractive, just as I wouldn't try to force the government to change my neighbor's house color just because I don't like it.

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poonther Town

poonther

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I don't believe that allowing a property owner his freedom would ever in and of itself contribute to the downfall of his neighbor's property. I would say it's ok to be outraged over visual pollution, but I don't believe it's an issue government should take up.

The safety issue has potential merit, but I'm not convinced it's worth limiting freedom. I see our nation's willingness to limit freedom in the name of safety as one of the problems we're experiencing right now. However, I'm open to that part of your argument.

However, I've seen no one express a safety argument regarding the Gameday Center, but only a displeasure with the aesthetics of the sign in question. I certainly don't believe in making the government force the property owner to change his sign just because I think it's unattractive, just as I wouldn't try to force the government to change my neighbor's house color just because I don't like it.

I definitely believe that allowing property owners total freedom can & does contribute to the downfall of a neighbor's property. It happens all the time. Case in Point: In Ft. Pierce a neighbor of a golf course community had a pig farm w/hundreds of pigs and he played rock and rock music for the pigs (I'm not sure why he did this) 24/7. Not only did his complete freedom stink up the neighborhood, but the music could be heard inside of many of the homes all times of the day and night. If that isn't property rights infringement, I don't know what is. Finally after a few lawsuits, the rock & roll pig farmer was forced to remove his pigs and music.

A city has an image and direction it wants to head, sorta of its own personality and signature. You see that all in the time in cities like Miami, Boca Raton, Scottsdale AZ, Charlottesville, VA, Santa Fe, NM etc etc. I believe through code enforcement of all kinds, this image and branding can be achieved so I absolutely believe government has that right.

The safety issue is the meat and bones of a sign code. It has to be there for the welfare of its citizens. Otherwise you'd be allowed to slap a rusty piece of tin over your building as your sign and the first big wind would pick it up and blow it down the street hitting people, cars and whatnot.

You are correct, the tacky cheap looking Gameday sign is where this all started and no it does not have any safety issues that I'm aware. I'm bringing up the safety issues in response to your question much earlier about why have a sign code.

As far as Gameday goes, that area is one of the crown jewels of Tally. It's a focal and gathering place. A place to showoff our city, a place of pride. Therefore more than anywhere else in the city the aesthetics is of the up-most importance. If that same exact sign was on a fast food restaurant on Tennessee St., you'd not hear the fuss over it from me that you've heard. I am ashamed that the city doesn't have tighter sign controls on Kleman. They have a separate review board for projects in that area, so that tells me they do want it to be a first class destination. I think they just failed on the signage and from what they've told me, they sorta feel that way too, otherwise why would they be looking into revising the sign code. Remember that parcel was bought from the city. At that time the buyer knew this was the focal point of the city and that this area had tighter controls on it than the rest of the city. So I have no sympathy for him b/c it's sorta "buyer beware here." Prior to purchase, he knew there were specific rules he must follow, much like when folks buy homes in gated neighborhoods w/strict controls and then try to do something specifically against the rules of that area and then cry about it.

What I don't like about this developer that once again they have cheapened their bldg. and the focal point of our city. First it was the fugly a/c unit at the top that was to be screened from view on the plans and now they put up the cheapest tackiest sign they could. Surely when they look at the bldg., they can't be proud of that sign. I am also very disappointed in the city for slacking up on this project. It could have been something to be really proud of, but after completion, it's just OK. That's fine if you like OK, but for that area I'd rather have something that is fantastic! To me, Gameday is exactly the reason why cities should have controls over signage and the aesthetics of a bldg. As a private citizen of the city I plan to do all I can to see that the next sign (The Plaza) looks nothing like Gameday's and to demand and assist if necessary that our city's sign codes be tightened up especially in places like Kleman.

And it is your right and freedom to see that it doesn't happen and I don't succeed. :)

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Relient J Hamlet

Relient J

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Well, it's ultimately irrelevant for me to get involved in a fight like this in Tallahassee, politically speaking, since I'm no longer a resident of that city. Were I a resident though, you might see me join that fight. :)

I think you and I could sit down and find a reasonable law that would address your noise and safety concerns. What you will never get me to agree to is any law that dictates aesthetic choices to a property owner. I have no problem with you challenging the property owner to come up with a more pleasing sign. I do believe that it's wrong to send the sword of government after him.

So again, I believe that a government telling its citizens what aesthetic choices they're allowed to make regarding their property is absolutely tyrannical, but I'm also very much concerned about where this can lead. There have been more extreme cases of zoning laws run amuck in which cities have restricted landowners as far as the type of house they can build, etc.

I'm curious, poonther, how far to you is too far? At what point do we cross the line into the government exceeding its authority? What type of zoning or sign ordinances would you oppose, if any?

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mracca Whistle-Stop

mracca

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I wasn't sure were to add this little tid bit of my "personal opinion" so I thought I would put it here since Signs seem to be the BIG discussion. I have been reading the zings lately and have seen a few complaints concerning a new digital Bill-Board that was erected on Thomasville road and I-10. (over by Keiser College)

Ex:

"Welcome to Tackyhassee - nothing but digital billboards, strip malls and Waffle Houses"

Does any one else here in the forums feel this way about this sign? I saw it yesterday for the first time and IMHO I think it looks pretty cool. We had a few of these in SF and I thought it was neat to look at while sitting in Rush-hour traffic, there was something different on it every day! And you know that who's ever idea it was to put it up was rolling in the ADV $$$$$. It doesn't make Tallahassee look Tacky at all, and the location is prime since it is right next to a major intersection among allot of commercial bizz.

I guess I need to stop reading the Zings because it seems to be filled with mostly NIMBY like citizens in Tallahassee. Who want to keep Tallahassee a "Hidden in the Deep Woods" kind of town and who are afraid of lights and sounds. "Buck-Lake alliance and Fallschase development war" for example. They either complain that there is nothing in town or there is too much. Or they want development in Tallahassee but know one wants it next to them!!!

WOW did I jump all over the board on this one???!!! :shok: lol

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BHCav Hamlet

BHCav

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I wasn't sure were to add this little tid bit of my "personal opinion" so I thought I would put it here since Signs seem to be the BIG discussion. I have been reading the zings lately and have seen a few complaints concerning a new digital Bill-Board that was erected on Thomasville road and I-10. (over by Keiser College)

Ex:

"Welcome to Tackyhassee - nothing but digital billboards, strip malls and Waffle Houses"

Does any one else here in the forums feel this way about this sign? I saw it yesterday for the first time and IMHO I think it looks pretty cool. We had a few of these in SF and I thought it was neat to look at while sitting in Rush-hour traffic, there was something different on it every day! And you know that who's ever idea it was to put it up was rolling in the ADV $$$$$. It doesn't make Tallahassee look Tacky at all, and the location is prime since it is right next to a major intersection among allot of commercial bizz.

I guess I need to stop reading the Zings because it seems to be filled with mostly NIMBY like citizens in Tallahassee. Who want to keep Tallahassee a "Hidden in the Deep Woods" kind of town and who are afraid of lights and sounds. "Buck-Lake alliance and Fallschase development war" for example. They either complain that there is nothing in town or there is too much. Or they want development in Tallahassee but know one wants it next to them!!!

WOW did I jump all over the board on this one???!!! :shok: lol

i like the sign.

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poonther Town

poonther

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mracca that looks like one of my morning coffee buzz post. :lol:

I've not seen this billboard only read about it. Tell me, can you see it from all of T-ville road or just on the flyover or just going south?

Is it true that it has audio and if so does it "talk" all the time and how loud?

That said and sight unseen, I'm all for it...but I'll have to see it for myself to make the final judgement. I am for limiting the number of billboards in our community, but I also see this new electronic one as tool to help w/that. If you can change billboard continuously, it lowers the need for other billboards in the area. Now 5 businesses can advertise on the same billboard as opposed to having five separate ones in the same location. Have you seen it at night and if so how does it look and does it create more light/glare than a normal billboard at night?

I really don't see how the audio could be affective since you'll be whizzing past there at a pretty good speed. If it's not really affective, then I might not be for that part. Just seems senseless and more noise pollution IMHO, but I could be wrong about that.

Yeah mracca Zing is not the place for the progressive thinkers in this town. I read them everyday and caught that stupid one. Those are just the people that fear change, growth, progress and anything modern talking. I think the hardcores of that group are small in numbers but very vocal. I think that group would be more happy if this area had a parked old covered wagon w/a billboard written on its canvas canopy...that type of signage would warm their hearts.

Is this a Lamar project?

BTW once I get a new cell phone later this month, we made need a thread to just talk about signage: the good, the bad and the ugly.

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poonther Town

poonther

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I'm curious, poonther, how far to you is too far? At what point do we cross the line into the government exceeding its authority? What type of zoning or sign ordinances would you oppose, if any?

Gosh RJ, good but tough question for me to answer. I think I'd have to handle that on a case by case basis.

I realize I am more sensitive to bad signage and zoning than the average person, but that is b/c I was schooled and trained in that type of environment. I helped create, implement and enforce some of the toughest and strictest signage, zoning and appearance laws in this state and country. While I realize that has created a bias on my part, I also have seen the affects these type of laws have on a community and I believe they are primarily positive in helping a community in many different ways. I can also recognize immediately when I arrive in a community, what type of zoning, signage etc laws they have and I must say many of the more successful communities in our state and nation have these type of laws. I never expect Tally to have the same restrictive laws that Boca Raton has, but we sure could do a better job than we are doing now.

As for residential areas, I'm for zoning laws that restrict the type of usage, setbacks and height. All of the aesthetic laws I believe should be governed by the homeowners associations. Some will be, by vote of its residents, very restrictive and some will have no restrictions at all.

As far as commercial/industrial areas go, I'm for overall rules and then more restrictive rules in special district areas such as Kleman, the new Gaines Street corridor and to a lesser degree the overall downtown area.

My ultimate goal for shopping centers would be for the city to have a rule that states all tenants in a center must use the same type of signage (back-lit, monument etc) font, letter size and color for their signage. That's as far as gov. involvement goes. The center and its tenants are free to choose the style, font and color. I doubt this would ever really happen in Tally and it's not my ambition to push it.

Also keep in mind there is a mechanism for those that disagree w/these rules to have them changed on a case by case basis. That is what the Board of Adjustments is for. Those that feel these rules present a special hardship, disadvantage or have special needs can always petition this board, have their case heard and possibly receive a variance to these rules.

I am very much for landscaping ordinances especially in commercial developments. While I'm more fond of certain types of trees (palms over crappy myrtles) I'd never try and regulate the exact type of trees just exclude "trash trees" such as the Chinese tallow (popcorn tree) that is taking over N. FL. I think Tally does a pretty good job w/this type of ordinance.

I will say that unfortunately the Gameday signage is a done deal. It's been approved through the sloppy, but proper channels. Even if the sign code for Kleman or the City were changed today, the G'day sign would be grandfathered in and could remain as is. That to me is way more Tackyhassee than some lighted digital billboard.

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Florida Megalopolis

Florida

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I just can't wait to see what they do with the columns on the top floor of the building. I really wish they hadn't deviated from the rendering from which most people were sold on this project. This final product looks like the initial rendering which wasn't impressive to me at all.

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humzai Whistle-Stop

humzai

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Once I get a camera, I've given my last two away, I'll be willing to take pics of crap people want me to Man that last post was horrible I should really have proof read it. There are some benefits to condos if it's for occasional use you have no need to maintain it and the ones at the Tennyson are fairly large and nice although for the money you could get quite a bit larger and nicer with you actually owning some land and a driveway and stuff.

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