Hampton Roads Military Developments

[hoobo]

Biotech would be difficult since the state is pushing Cville as the biotech city and Richmond with VCU/MCV wouldn't mind stealing it. Locally, Norfolk is trying to develop a biotech industry around Norfolk General and EVMS. ODU should start a biomedical engineering program. If Oceana is redeveloped, VB and ODU should team up on a tech park geared towards nanotech, lasers, and robotics. VB shouldn't try to rob Norfolk of what it's trying to do. And whatever happens, ODU has to be at the center of it because university research is what attracts start-ups and investment.

As vdogg has said, VB has to look at the potential of redeveloping Pacific Ave and the rest of the strip. That still is VB's largest money-maker and it won't be affected by the loss of jobs at Oceana.

[hoobo]

SoCal was hit hard by military base closings and the loss of aerospace jobs. The economy tanked in the early 90's since it was so dependent on these industries. As the economy diversified, SoCal has recovered. Home prices hit a low in 1994 dropping in some areas by 50% from 1990 levels; they have since tripled, quadrupled, and in some cases quintupled. It will take time, but the economy will recover. HR, not just VB, needs a game plan.

[rusthebuss]

Biotech would be difficult since the state is pushing Cville as the biotech city and Richmond with VCU/MCV wouldn't mind stealing it.  Locally, Norfolk is trying to develop a biotech industry around Norfolk General and EVMS.  ODU should start a biomedical engineering program.  If Oceana is redeveloped, VB and ODU should team up on a tech park geared towards nanotech, lasers, and robotics.  VB shouldn't try to rob Norfolk of what it's trying to do.  And whatever happens, ODU has to be at the center of it because university research is what attracts start-ups and investment.

As vdogg has said, VB has to look at the potential of redeveloping Pacific Ave and the rest of the strip.  That still is VB's largest money-maker and it won't be affected by the loss of jobs at Oceana.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

We do have jobs like that.......cough Jefferson Labs.......cough has one type of laser that people come from all over the world to work with. There is only two of them. One in Europe and one here. I think that Jefferson labs also work with quarks i think is how you spell it. The smallest part of a atom. Correct me if I'm wrong.

[hoobo]

We do have jobs like that.......cough Jefferson Labs.......cough has one type of laser that people come from all over the world to work with. There is only two of them. One in Europe and one here. I think that Jefferson labs also work with quarks i think is how you spell it. The smallest part of a atom. Correct me if I'm wrong.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yeah, they do particle acceleration using lasers, not the development of lasers per se. And you're right about quarks unless something new has been discovered. However, I'm talking about commercial and military lasers. The one at Jeff Lab is for atomic research. Plenty of other labs use them for bio and chem experiments. There's a growing commercial market from lasers for cosmotology, surgery, manufacturing, etc. The military is trying to develop a laser gun. It's a growth market.

[Viper]

I just read about that military laser a few days ago. They finally figured out how to make one strong enough to shoot down missiles that can safely fit on a jet.

Quark is the smallest currently known subatomic particle.

I see many of you already pointing out some great possibilities here. Instead of condemning the buildings, build more (and bigger once the jets do leave), tech parks, med labs, office parks.....

We could have done that with Cecil but it's too far away from the urban area unlike Oceana which is ironically what is causing the BRAC to want to move it out.

[okinawatyphoon]

Oceana's fall could cause domino effect in Va.

And vdogg, could you take the smiley off next to this topic on the forum? seeing as it is practically the only one on the forum and this is no longer a happy story, could you please take it off?

[reggie3]

If you want to turn Oceana into an international airport, the city would still have to condemn all those houses and businesses, and then some. Someone from the military was talking about this in an article and he said that if Oceana was a commercial airport that planes would not be flying at all from there right now because of the development. So be careful what you wish for...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I'm interested in knowing why those houses would have to be condemned? Airliners typically do straight in approaches not carrier breaks at 1000'. Additionally, airliners are quieter than military jets, and have an incentive to get quieter since encroachment is a problem at airports world wide.

Compare Oceana:

Oceana and take off from there.

to Atlanta:

Hartsfield Intl

or LAX for example:

LAX

or even Norfolk Intl

ORF

Norfolk Intl has 2 runways total with airliners limited to just one of those. It has no ability to take land heavy aircraft even if the airlines wanted to. Also, while the current effort to get international flights is commendable, I think people have forgotten that we had a Norfolk to Toronto (I think) flight, and they pulled out after a few months due to lack of interest. Additionally, while there is a study to build a 2nd runway at ORF, I think it's time to face the facts that Norfok Intl is limited by its surroundings (Shore Drive, I-64, Military Highway, Lake Wright, VB Industrial Park, NAB Little Creek, etc) even more than Oceana is.

Oceana has 4 outstanding runways and plenty of potential terminal, parking, and hotel space. There is even space for maintenance hangars, and the commercial areas that always pop up around major airports. Boeing 737 and 717 class aircraft land there frequently, and C-5 and C-17 heavy lift cargo craft also have the ability to operate from there. A biger airport would go a long way to bringing people into the area so that they can fill up any new beach hotels that are built, as well as help feed the growing cruise industry. Also, you don't become a real metropolitan area until you have a major airport which ORF does not have the ability to be. Norfolk doesn't have to give up ORF because airlines like Southwest prefer to fly out of the smaller of mulitple airports in a region.

As far as a biomedical park. Richmond has been working on that for years with some, but not phenomenal, success even though they already had considerable advantages. They already had pharmacy companies in the area, they were already home to a major hospital, multiple universites, and a medical college. VA Beach has none of these.

Commercial park - Is there already a lack of commercial space in the region that would indicate a need for 12,000 more acres worth of LOW RISE campuses? If you think an airport would need transportation upgrades for that area then imagine what would be needed to move people into and out of those office buildings.

Housing / Mixed Use developments - They'll be plenty of housing available if Oceana leaves. Also, there has to be somebody around to use these mixed use developments.

[urbanfan]

I'm interested in knowing why those houses would have to be condemned?  Airliners typically do straight in approaches not carrier breaks at 1000'.  Additionally, airliners are quieter than military jets, and have an incentive to get quieter since encroachment is a problem at airports world wide. 

Compare Oceana:

Oceana and take off from there.

to Atlanta:

Hartsfield Intl

or LAX for example:

LAX

or even Norfolk Intl

ORF

Norfolk Intl has 2 runways total with airliners limited to just one of those.  It has  no ability to take land heavy aircraft even if the airlines wanted to.  Also, while the current effort to get international flights is commendable, I think people have forgotten that we had a Norfolk to Toronto (I think) flight, and they pulled out after a few months due to lack of interest.  Additionally, while there is a study to build a 2nd runway at ORF, I think it's time to face the facts that Norfok Intl is limited by its surroundings (Shore Drive, I-64, Military Highway, Lake Wright, VB Industrial Park, NAB Little Creek, etc) even more than Oceana is.

Oceana has 4 outstanding runways and plenty of potential terminal, parking, and hotel space.  There is even space for maintenance hangars, and the commercial areas that always pop up around major airports.  Boeing 737 and 717 class aircraft land there frequently, and C-5 and C-17 heavy lift cargo craft also have the ability to operate from there.  A biger airport would go a long way to bringing people into the area so that they can fill up any new beach hotels that are built, as well as help feed the growing cruise industry.  Also, you don't become a real metropolitan area until you have a major airport which ORF does not have the ability to be.  Norfolk doesn't have to give up ORF because airlines like Southwest prefer to fly out of the smaller of mulitple airports in a region.

As far as a biomedical park.  Richmond has been working on that for years with some, but not phenomenal, success even though they already had considerable advantages.  They already had pharmacy companies in the area, they were already home to a major hospital, multiple universites, and a medical college.  VA Beach has none of these.

Commercial park - Is there already a lack of commercial space in the region that would indicate a need for 12,000 more acres worth of LOW RISE campuses?  If you think an airport would need transportation upgrades for that area then imagine what would be needed to move people into and out of those office buildings.

Housing / Mixed Use developments - They'll be plenty of housing available if Oceana leaves.  Also, there has to be somebody around to use these mixed use developments.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Where to start?

Well, Norfolk does handle large jets as we speak. The majority of flights out of Norfolk are heavy cargo. So yes norfolk has the ability to handle large heavy payloads. Will norfolk ever be able to handle the next generation of superplanes? Only if the annex some land. Norfolk, can still expand its runways, however it would be very expensive to do so, and would involve tunneling 64 below the runway and condemning land. Would this happen before building a mega-airport? Most likely. I don't see anyone wanting a mega airport when we have to regional airports. ORF already operates with major hub status, and NNWIA finally got a hub designation. Building a major airport will never happen because there is just no need for anyone to hub from this airport when you have D.C., Philly, Baltimore and Charlotte less than 4 hours away, Philly is 6 hours. Also, Norfolk still has not built there final expansion which would give the airport double the capacity it has now, which would put the flights in the range of being able to handle 8-10 million people a year. That is very considerable. There are airports in other cities that don't even run those types of numbers and ORF has the capacity to do it. It just takes time to get there. We will never be a dallas, L.A., N.Y. or other megametropolis, but we can be a major city. And ORF has the ability and room to take us there when it is needed.

Second,

If for some reason a decision was made to build a mega-airport, it would be built out in rural lands. Not in confined spaces. Which is why there was talk about building one out in Isle of Wight which tanked. They do this so that they have plenty of room to expand. However, i will digress and say that the land Oceana sits on would be plenty of room for a couple of two mile runways which would handle the largest aircraft out there easily. So room would not be an issue there.

Don't get me wrong, I do like the idea of building an airport at Oceana and closing ORF, but this will never happen. And Southside canot handle two airports by themselves. Unless tourists start flying in to VB. But it is a proven fact that a majority of vacationers don't fly in they drive.

[hoobo]

So Gov. Warner is saying that even if the planes move the DoD has no intentions of closing Oceana. Great. Thanks BRAC.

[rusthebuss]

So Gov. Warner is saying that even if the planes move the DoD has no intentions of closing Oceana.  Great.  Thanks BRAC.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Thats just a stab in my opinion. Now he thinks that the carriers will leave Norfolk because of the jets leaving. I don't know if thats true though.

[Viper]

A single carrier might leave but thats tied into the whole decommissioning of the Kennedy carrier in Mayport NS. I'm sure most of you are already familiar with that issue.

[rusthebuss]

A single carrier might leave but thats tied into the whole decommissioning of the Kennedy carrier in Mayport NS.    I'm sure most of you are already familiar with that issue.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yes we already know this! We are talking about them trying to take more.

[PeninsulaKiddo]

Yes we already know this! We are talking about them trying to take more.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

There are few, if any, Naval ports in this world that can compare to Norfolk. I'm not sure if the Kennedy will be decommissioned because given the fact that we're at war that would seem to be a big mistake IMHO... even if we did lose one (and they wouldn't take more than that--the Navy has made a point to say that) we'd still be the preeminent (sp?) Naval base in North America... maybe the Western Hemisphere. Not too shabby in perspective.

In another 10-15 years, even if we did lose the jets and whatnot and a carrier, it would all reverse. Once the new NC training field is complete the Florida training areas will become obsolete and the jets will probably be moved back (somehow BRAC sees all this moving as money-saving ).

[hoobo]

Oceana has 4 outstanding runways and plenty of potential terminal, parking, and hotel space.  There is even space for maintenance hangars, and the commercial areas that always pop up around major airports.  Boeing 737 and 717 class aircraft land there frequently, and C-5 and C-17 heavy lift cargo craft also have the ability to operate from there.  A biger airport would go a long way to bringing people into the area so that they can fill up any new beach hotels that are built, as well as help feed the growing cruise industry.  Also, you don't become a real metropolitan area until you have a major airport which ORF does not have the ability to be.  Norfolk doesn't have to give up ORF because airlines like Southwest prefer to fly out of the smaller of mulitple airports in a region.

As far as a biomedical park.  Richmond has been working on that for years with some, but not phenomenal, success even though they already had considerable advantages.  They already had pharmacy companies in the area, they were already home to a major hospital, multiple universites, and a medical college.  VA Beach has none of these.

Commercial park - Is there already a lack of commercial space in the region that would indicate a need for 12,000 more acres worth of LOW RISE campuses?  If you think an airport would need transportation upgrades for that area then imagine what would be needed to move people into and out of those office buildings.

Housing / Mixed Use developments - They'll be plenty of housing available if Oceana leaves.  Also, there has to be somebody around to use these mixed use developments.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Oceana is less than 7000 acres not the 12,000 acres mentioned. Right now, there appears to be plenty of available land for office towers between DT Norfolk, DT Portsmouth, VB CBD, Osyter Point, and Greenbrier. If Oceana closed completely, that would open up Lynnhaven for high rise structures. VB doesn't need more commercial space (Corporate Landing offers plenty of campus style office tracts), but more industrial space. VB is also running out of housing sites. Regional expansion is pushing residential and industrial development out into Suffolk, Isle of Wight, James City Co, and southern Chesapeake. VB could capture this and make the area more urbanized by redeveloping Oceana. Housing starts would decline in the few years after losing Oceana, but demand will return especially demand for housig close to jobs (i.e. VB).

Richmond, Cville, and Norfolk are all trying to develop biomedical industries. VB doesn't need it because there are plenty of other emerging technologies it could try to target. I mention Norfolk, because as you have said you need a research university, medical school, and regional hospital. That would be ODU, EVMS, and Norfolk General, respectively. So even locally, VB is not in the running.

Mention LAX, John Wayne, or Burbank airports to people in LA and you'll get an earful. Mention Ohare to someone in Chicago, and you'll never hear the end of it. Surrounding residents don't want the plane noise. These airports aren't moving because they're already there. Try to build them today, and the FAA won't sign off on them. The FAA wouldn't sign off on the proposal to turn El Toro MCAS into an airport. El Toro is the same size as Oceana and surrounded by development.

HR doesn't need another airport. ORF is only at 4 million passengers. PHF is at one million. Let them get within 85-90% of capacity before discussing another airport. In your own argument you said ORF couldn't support a Toronto flight and most tourists prefer to drive than fly to HR. Then how would building an airport fill the hotels at the Strip?

[hoobo]

Thats just a stab in my opinion. Now he thinks that the carriers will leave Norfolk because of the jets leaving. I don't know if thats true though.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It's not. He's gone mad.

According to Global Security website, Mayport "can accommodate up to 34 fleet units, including two aircraft carriers."

"The Mayport Basin is located on the south side of the St. Johns River just inside the entrance jetties and westward of St. Johns Point. Berths consist of the two primary carrier piers (C1 and C2), another carrier berth at dolphins (C3), and several other piers for smaller naval vessels. Berths B2 and B3 have also been used as a carrier pier. Depths at all piers except Al are silted to about 38 ft at mean low water (MLW) and are expected to be dredged to 45 ft in 1982. Pier heights are 11 ft at delta piers and 12 ft above MLW at Bravo and Charlie piers while normal high tide is 5 ft above MLW."

Norfolk Naval Station is 1200 acreas larger than Mayport (4600 to 3400). Mayport is also located on St. John's River near its mouth and is accessed through a jetty. Norfolk is on sheltered but open water. Norfolk's location is simply better suited as a primary port.

[Viper]

... expected to be dredged to 45 ft in 1982.

Whoa, how old is that document?

Only one would be moved to Mayport NS. It can accommodate 2 but there's no need for that many there. Besides, that's 2 conventional carriers, not nuclear. Mayport NS is just now being thought over by the Navy to house a nuclear carrier.

[hoobo]

Whoa, how old is that document? 

Only one would be moved to Mayport NS.  It can accommodate 2 but there's no need for that many there.  Besides, that's 2 conventional carriers, not nuclear.  Mayport NS is just now being thought over by the Navy to house a nuclear carrier.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I thought it didn't have nuclear facilities, but didn't want to mention it without verification. That website is interesting. That number is old, but the article mentions possible consequences from BRAC 2005.

Main site of Global Security

US military bases

[Viper]

That's what I'm saying, sorry. It's not nuke capable yet but will need to be if they decommision the Kennedy so they can keep the East Coast Fleet carriers at more than one base.

[reggie3]

Unfortunately, Norfolk is as much a major hub as it is an International airport. I love ORF, and actually enjoy flying out and into it, but it does not have the size to be a major hub. DC-10 sized aircraft do fly in to and out of there, but it's been repeatedly stated in the media that it can't take a 747 which means it couldn't take the Airbus 380. Oceana could possibly take these aircraft (since I don't have the pubs related to either of those beasts I can't look up that information). Maybe somebody else can figure out if it can take a 777 or the future 787.

Also, if you wanted to expand ORF, not only would you have bury 64, but also Military Hwy, and get rid of the Lake Wright executive center depending on how long you want to make the runway.

Most people do drive to the beach, but is that because they prefer to do it or they see that as the only choice.

If a former NAS has a lot of use options why hasn't Florida been able to find enough tenents for the former NAS Cecil Field to make continuing down that road worthwhile? What industries are expanding at a pace that they need that kind of land? 7k acres is alot of land even with multiple tenents.

[rusthebuss]

Unfortunately, Norfolk is as much a major hub as it is an International airport.  I love ORF, and actually enjoy flying out and into it, but it does not have the size to be a major hub.  DC-10 sized aircraft do fly in to and out of there, but it's been repeatedly stated in the media that it can't take a 747 which means it couldn't take the Airbus 380.  Oceana could possibly take these aircraft (since I don't have the pubs related to either of those beasts I can't look up that information).    Maybe somebody else can figure out if it can take a 777 or the future 787.

Also, if you wanted to expand ORF, not only would you have bury 64, but also Military Hwy, and get rid of the Lake Wright executive center depending on how long you want to make the runway.

Most people do drive to the beach, but is that because they prefer to do it or they see that as the only choice.

If a former NAS has a lot of use options why hasn't Florida been able to find enough tenents for the former NAS Cecil Field to make continuing down that road worthwhile?  What industries are expanding at a pace that they need that kind of land?  7k acres is alot of land even with multiple tenents.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Oceana is being realigned and not closed. They are still going to be running special ops out of there. So maybe the buildup can still be built around it. Even with the jets leaving the navy still might require some of the same stipulations as they do now.

[hoobo]

Sorry Viper, had a couple grammatical mistakes in there. Meant to thank you for verifying my thoughts.

reggie3, as rusthebus stated, it appears Oceana will be realigned. Anyway, as Viper has mentioned, Cecil is on the outskirts of the city so finding tenants has been difficult. Florida made it into an aerospace research/manufacturing park which further reduced the kind of industries willing to move in. Oceana is surrounded by development in a city running out of usable space. The situations in Orange County, CA are more relevant. Both Tustin and El Toro are in the process of redevelopment. OC is running out of available land just like VB is.

As for airplanes, both Airbus and Boeing have information on their websites relating to necessary runway lengths. ORF can handle all but the largest of commercial jets (747, 777, and the in-production 787 and A380), and it can handle the 2 Boeings in emergencies. These 4 airplanes are all overseas jetliners. (No US Airport (except maybe Denver) can handle the A380. No passenger US airline or airport has shown interest in the A380. Lousiville and Memphis will be forced to expand their runways for the UPS and FedEx operations.) The largest plane ORF can handle is the 757. Is there a need for ORF to handle the overseas planes? ORF runway is 9000 ft long. Norfolk wants to construct a parallel 7000 ft runway. San Diego has one runway and it is 9400 ft long. There is no room for another runway yet San Diego handles 15 million passengers. John Wayne in Orange County handles 10 million passengers and the longer of its two runways is only 5700 ft. Locally, PHF has 2 runways the longest of which is 8000 ft. There are plans for a third. If it hasn't already done so, PHF should get the land to extend to 12,000 ft (the length required for a 747). Oceana doesn't need to be an airport, the local aviation infrastructure is fine.

[rusthebuss]

Yeah we still have alot of room with the current airports to grow. Oceana to become an airport would be the dumbest thing that they could do with that land.

[Viper]

Oceana is being realigned and not closed. They are still going to be running special ops out of there. So maybe the buildup can still be built around it. Even with the jets leaving the navy still might require some of the same stipulations as they do now.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I haven't read this anywhere but right here. Can you link me to something official stating that?

I've always read the BRAC was pushing for complete closure and not a realignemt. I also fail to see how SpecOps can't be moved. I'm not trying to knock on you, I just haven't read that anywhere but here.

Hoobo, no problem, we all make them.

[vdogg]

I haven't read this anywhere but right here.  Can you link me to something official stating that?

I've always read the BRAC was pushing for complete closure and not a realignemt.  I also fail to see how SpecOps can't be moved.  I'm not trying to knock on you, I just haven't read that anywhere but here.

Hoobo, no problem, we all make them.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

From Pilotonline

The governor reminded lawmakers that Oceana would remain a military base under the BRAC recommendations even if the jets are moved.

[Viper]

I mean, do you have anything offical like from the BRAC itself. Warner could be playing politics here just as many here say Jeb is in Florida.

I wonder why more do not mention that aspect of it. Most media points to a complete closure.