Charlotte-Douglas Airport (CLT) Expansion

[TCLT]

CLT-HNL is ending 1/3 btw and won’t be returning.

https://www.wsoctv.com/news/local/american-airlines-scrap-flight-clt-honolulu-scheduling-shift/SNPFAAIM7VH5ROB43EHIXWGGA4/

[LKN704]

I mentioned about a month ago that the route was being discontinued as it was extended through winter, and I predicted when it was announced that it would probably end once Covid settled down. Hawaii is simply just too low-yielding to waste a valuable widebody aircraft on. The Charlotte-Honolulu PDEW is practically zero, and the CLT-HNL flight overflies ORD/LAX/DFW/PHX, which all have nonstop  service to HNL on AA. 

The S22 Europe schedule is now loaded:

AA716 CLT-MUC, Departs at 4:10PM (772)

AA720 CLT-FCO, Departs at 4:20PM (772)

AA702 CLT-FRA, Departs at 4:40PM (772)

AA724 CLT-DUB, Departs at 4:40PM (772)

AA748 CLT-MAD, Departs at 6:20PM (772)

AA730 CLT-LHR, Departs at 6:46PM (772)

AA732 CLT-LHR, Departs at 8:05PM (772)

All of the flights seem to be timed much earlier than in previous years, likely to optimize connections. IIRC, the second LHR flight used to depart around 10PM. 

There will also be an additional 772 flight to MIA, one of four domestic widebody routes this summer, excluding Hawaii/Alaska. 

Rome resumes 5 April, Madrid resumes 27 March, and Dublin resumes 5 May. CLT-DUB will have the most capacity (in terms of seat count) of any AA route to Dublin this summer. 

[KJHburg]

Just curious why is Paris not a destination for AA from CLT as it was in the past.   Does Delta still fly Paris from RDU?  

[CLT2014]

8 hours ago, KJHburg said:

Just curious why is Paris not a destination for AA from CLT as it was in the past.   Does Delta still fly Paris from RDU?  

American has a limited widebody fleet this summer. They retired the Airbus A330 fleet during the pandemic and they were supposed to be backfilled by 787 deliveries. Instead, Boeing is behind schedule on deliveries so AA does not have as many planes as UA and DL right now that can operate long haul flights. AA had to look at all of their hubs and long haul routes and pick the most profitable and popular routes. CDG didn't make the cut from CLT.

DL is planning to resume service to CDG from RDU on Aug 3, with service only 3 times per week. DL is a part of SkyTeam with Air France, so they can offer onward connections to the rest of Europe and the Middle East via CDG, unlike American where trips terminate in Paris.

[kayman]

On 12/11/2021 at 9:28 AM, KJHburg said:

It would be a long flight but a lot of people do like to get their with a few stops as possible.  On my long flights to Asia from US like from DFW to Hong Kong which is over 16 hours you have to get up and walk around a bit and I stood and talked to people in one of the galleys.  You watch a couple of movies and some tv shows and you are there (finally).   

Correct me if I am wrong but the only city with service to Asia from the southeast is Atlanta.   For a region this size and populated there is room for one more.  

Agreed, CLT is too big of an airport or the Greater Charlotte metropolitan region to rely upon ATL or DFW as a connection to Asia.

[Richhamleigh, DC]

...and assuming you are making a connection, I'd rather go through CLT than ATL.  

[CarolinaDaydreamin]

1 hour ago, Phillydog said:

...and assuming you are making a connection, I'd rather go through CLT than ATL.  

Honestly I'd rather connect through ATL on a long distance flight. The lounges in Atlanta are much better and have showers etc.

[Miesian Corners]

3 hours ago, CarolinaDaydreamin said:

Honestly I'd rather connect through ATL on a long distance flight. The lounges in Atlanta are much better and have showers etc.

The Centurion Lounge has showers...

[elrodvt]

I prefer a larger airport as well simply because you have a lot more options when something goes wrong.

[tozmervo]

46 minutes ago, elrodvt said:

I prefer a larger airport as well simply because you have a lot more options when something goes wrong.

This past weekend we flew from RSW back to CLT. I overheard a gate agent in RSW tell a customer something to the effect of "At least get to Charlotte, you'll have far more options to get home from there."

[CarolinaDaydreamin]

1 hour ago, elrodvt said:

I prefer a larger airport as well simply because you have a lot more options when something goes wrong.

Right. If you're on Delta (better airline anyway), you could still get on a second flight to London, Paris, Amsterdam or get on the AF, KLM flight that same evening. The centurian lounge is a certain improvement.

ATL is more efficient and more on time than BOS, MIA, ORD, JFK, PHL etc. Charlotte should be able to be a great option after the renovation is complete, but still has a lot of growing pains and American Airlines is about the worst international US carrier.

Edited December 13, 2021 by CarolinaDaydreamin

[Richhamleigh, DC]

https://simpleflying.com/play-24-hour-connection-loop/amp/

CLT or RDU?  I can see RDU...   Thoughts?

[deleted account]

It would be great, IMO, if we had another thread here or in the Coffee House for discussion of flights offered to other cities. Then I could completely ignore that thread and come here knowing I would see actual news about the physical expansion of the airport. To be clear, I'm not at all opposed to the discussion on routes...I'm just perpetually disappointed that there isn't more discussion of the expansion and sharing of pictures. I'm probably the only one though...

[LKN704]

Charlotte will (likely) never get a flight to East Asia. 

Just because the Charlotte region has been growing rapidly over the last few decades doesn't automatically point to a need for a flight to Asia (or frankly anywhere else in the world for that matter). It takes decades upon decades of consistent and diverse economic growth in a variety of sectors to produce the demand necessary for new air links between regions. 

International O&D data is classified/not publicly available, and really the only public-facing data set is from a Brookings Report that is dated from 2011. The largest East Asian market ex CLT was/is Shanghai, which only has a measly 22 PDEW (passengers daily each way). The next highest East Asian city was/is Seoul, at 18 PDEW. Tokyo was/is 15 PDEW. Hong Kong and Beijing were/are both around 14 PDEW. If you combined the local demand from all of those cities, you wouldn't even fill an AA 737 halfway to capacity.  Demand to East Asia is actually higher in Austin, Raleigh, Salt Lake City, St. Louis, Cincinnati, and Tampa than from Charlotte. 

Charlotte is a high-volume/low-yield connecting hub for AA...nothing more unfortunately due to the city's low O&D traffic levels. Despite the gigantic size of the hub, there is absolutely nothing the airline gains from adding a nonstop flight to East Asia from Charlotte, except for possibly wasting two aircraft (US/Asia routes usually require two aircraft to operate due to their stage lengths) on a money-losing route. AA has a decent Asian network ex DFW, and offers plenty of connections through their joint-venture and Oneworld partners ex ORD. With the exception of 15 small destinations which are essentially economically marginal in terms of East Asian traffic (Bangor, Burlington, Charleston WV, Daytona Beach, Erie, Florence SC, Greenville NC, Huntington WV, Ithaca, Jacksonville NC, Lynchburg, Melbourne FL, New Bern, Salisbury, and Roanoke), every city AA serves from CLT also has nonstop service to DFW and/or ORD. 

It isn't just a Charlotte thing either...demand to/from East Asia from the East Coast really tapers off once you leave NYC. Look at Washington DC, for example...the city sits in the third largest metro area in the country, not to mention the wealthiest, yet struggles to support East Asia service outside of Tokyo, Beijing, and Seoul. 

Remember that you cannot be everything to everyone, and airlines aren't excluded from that statement. AA has a fantastic network to Latin America and the Caribbean, and a decent network to Europe. Unfortunately decades of having the "wrong" hubs geographically and the "wrong" equipment to both serve East Asia has basically cost AA the ability to have a decent marketing presence in the region...and that's okay. ORD-Asia didn't work. LAX-Asia didn't work. SJC-Asia didn't work. They still serve the core East Asian cities of TYO, SEL, HKG, PEK, and PVG nonstop from the US and that is essentially all that can be expected from them IMO. 

Remember for several reasons, in several (perhaps even most) East Asia-US markets, the market/POS is often heavily skewed towards Asian carriers. Frankly the US3 offer a poor product that becomes embarrassingly poor in Asia. Yes, JAL/Cathay/Singapore are amazing and offer both a hard and soft product that simply cannot be matched, but the product that DL/UA/AA offer just isn't appropriate. I've flown AA several times to Asia and witnessed countless deplorable actions from the cabin crew (screaming at foreign passengers who couldn't speak/understand English, pointing, etc) that wouldn't be appropriate in most cultures let alone in East Asia. 

 

[TCLT]

1 hour ago, JBS said:

It would be great, IMO, if we had another thread here or in the Coffee House for discussion of flights offered to other cities. Then I could completely ignore that thread and come here knowing I would see actual news about the physical expansion of the airport. To be clear, I'm not at all opposed to the discussion on routes...I'm just perpetually disappointed that there isn't more discussion of the expansion and sharing of pictures. I'm probably the only one though...

There’s at least one other poster who shares your opinion…

edit: to be clear that poster i'm referring to is absolutely not me ahem stiluvclt

But to be honest, this thread would be barren if it was solely for physical expansion. Plus airline network changes and associated topics are directly related to the physical expansion of the airport, economic development of the Charlotte region, corporate relocation, and all the other development discussed in the other threads on this forum. Airlines and networks are, in my opinion, integral to any discussion on a major airport.

Edited December 14, 2021 by TCLT
not me

[Richhamleigh, DC]

23 minutes ago, TCLT said:

There’s at least one other poster who share your opinion…

But to be honest, this thread would be barren if it was solely for physical expansion. Plus airline network changes and associated topics are directly related to the physical expansion of the airport, economic development of the Charlotte region, corporate relocation, and all the other development discussed in the other threads on this forum. Airlines and networks are, in my opinion, integral to any discussion on a major airport.

The potential expansion of air service to CLT, even if speculation, is worthy of discussion in this thread.  CLT could support additional international carriers.  If that conversation doesnt belong here, I apologize.

[carolina1792]

5 hours ago, LKN704 said:

Charlotte will (likely) never get a flight to East Asia. 

Just because the Charlotte region has been growing rapidly over the last few decades doesn't automatically point to a need for a flight to Asia (or frankly anywhere else in the world for that matter). It takes decades upon decades of consistent and diverse economic growth in a variety of sectors to produce the demand necessary for new air links between regions. 

International O&D data is classified/not publicly available, and really the only public-facing data set is from a Brookings Report that is dated from 2011. The largest East Asian market ex CLT was/is Shanghai, which only has a measly 22 PDEW (passengers daily each way). The next highest East Asian city was/is Seoul, at 18 PDEW. Tokyo was/is 15 PDEW. Hong Kong and Beijing were/are both around 14 PDEW. If you combined the local demand from all of those cities, you wouldn't even fill an AA 737 halfway to capacity.  Demand to East Asia is actually higher in Austin, Raleigh, Salt Lake City, St. Louis, Cincinnati, and Tampa than from Charlotte. 

Charlotte is a high-volume/low-yield connecting hub for AA...nothing more unfortunately due to the city's low O&D traffic levels. Despite the gigantic size of the hub, there is absolutely nothing the airline gains from adding a nonstop flight to East Asia from Charlotte, except for possibly wasting two aircraft (US/Asia routes usually require two aircraft to operate due to their stage lengths) on a money-losing route. AA has a decent Asian network ex DFW, and offers plenty of connections through their joint-venture and Oneworld partners ex ORD. With the exception of 15 small destinations which are essentially economically marginal in terms of East Asian traffic (Bangor, Burlington, Charleston WV, Daytona Beach, Erie, Florence SC, Greenville NC, Huntington WV, Ithaca, Jacksonville NC, Lynchburg, Melbourne FL, New Bern, Salisbury, and Roanoke), every city AA serves from CLT also has nonstop service to DFW and/or ORD. 

It isn't just a Charlotte thing either...demand to/from East Asia from the East Coast really tapers off once you leave NYC. Look at Washington DC, for example...the city sits in the third largest metro area in the country, not to mention the wealthiest, yet struggles to support East Asia service outside of Tokyo, Beijing, and Seoul. 

Remember that you cannot be everything to everyone, and airlines aren't excluded from that statement. AA has a fantastic network to Latin America and the Caribbean, and a decent network to Europe. Unfortunately decades of having the "wrong" hubs geographically and the "wrong" equipment to both serve East Asia has basically cost AA the ability to have a decent marketing presence in the region...and that's okay. ORD-Asia didn't work. LAX-Asia didn't work. SJC-Asia didn't work. They still serve the core East Asian cities of TYO, SEL, HKG, PEK, and PVG nonstop from the US and that is essentially all that can be expected from them IMO. 

Remember for several reasons, in several (perhaps even most) East Asia-US markets, the market/POS is often heavily skewed towards Asian carriers. Frankly the US3 offer a poor product that becomes embarrassingly poor in Asia. Yes, JAL/Cathay/Singapore are amazing and offer both a hard and soft product that simply cannot be matched, but the product that DL/UA/AA offer just isn't appropriate. I've flown AA several times to Asia and witnessed countless deplorable actions from the cabin crew (screaming at foreign passengers who couldn't speak/understand English, pointing, etc) that wouldn't be appropriate in most cultures let alone in East Asia. 

 

Raleigh/Durham has a huge high-income Indian population I wonder if there could be a better connection from NC to India in the future. All my co-workers travel to India yearly and it's a hassle.  Morrisville next to RDU is 30% Indian.  The closes direct flight to India is the Dulles-to-New Delhi flight.

Edited December 14, 2021 by carolina1792

[Miesian Corners]

9 hours ago, carolina1792 said:

Raleigh/Durham has a huge high-income Indian population I wonder if there could be a better connection from NC to India in the future. All my co-workers travel to India yearly and it's a hassle.  Morrisville next to RDU is 30% Indian.  The closes direct flight to India is the Dulles-to-New Delhi flight.

Vasu Raja, an Indian-American and Chief Revenue Officer of American Airlines, disagrees. 

[jjwilli]

Progress picture from the walkway to A North.

[CLT2014]

10 hours ago, carolina1792 said:

Raleigh/Durham has a huge high-income Indian population I wonder if there could be a better connection from NC to India in the future. All my co-workers travel to India yearly and it's a hassle.  Morrisville next to RDU is 30% Indian.  The closes direct flight to India is the Dulles-to-New Delhi flight.

The Triangle may have a relatively high percentage of its population with Indian descent, but because the CSA itself isn't that large.... it doesn't amount to very many people (less than 40,000). Assuming a flight to India ran 3 days per week, 52 weeks per year and is a Boeing 787 seating 234 passengers..... that's 36,504 seats each year that need to be filled which means nearly 100% of the Indian population in the Triangle would have to fly back per year on the specific days the nonstop operates and choose the nonstop flight to one specific city (versus a connecting flight to the actual city they are from within a massive country). The numbers just don't pencil out. If the flight was daily, the numbers are even worse... 85,410 seats to India per year meaning every single Indian in the Triangle would need to fly twice per year on the nonstop. Add in that RDU isn't a connecting hub, and an airline can't fill the seats with connecting passengers from other cities like they can in NY, Chicago, Washington DC, SF, et.

That's why the only nonstop flights to India from the USA are from four massive cities with over 100,000 Indian Americans: New York / Newark, Chicago, Washington DC, and San Francisco. 

Edited December 14, 2021 by CLT2014

[CLT2014]

6 minutes ago, jjwilli said:

Progress picture from the walkway to A North.

Its incredible to see how much larger the terminal is going to be. The breathing room is going to be so welcomed at check in so people don't have to be six inches apart.

[Miesian Corners]

1 hour ago, CLT2014 said:

Its incredible to see how much larger the terminal is going to be. The breathing room is going to be so welcomed at check in so people don't have to be six inches apart.

I hope you're right. When I look at the staging video and blueprints, the ticket lobby doesn't appear to get that much larger, as the ticket counters and queuing areas for TSA all get moved forward (towards the roadway). The area around the Queens Court on the ticketing level seems to be especially tight.

Edited December 14, 2021 by Miesian Corners

[LKN704]

2 hours ago, CLT2014 said:

The Triangle may have a relatively high percentage of its population with Indian descent, but because the CSA itself isn't that large.... it doesn't amount to very many people (less than 40,000). Assuming a flight to India ran 3 days per week, 52 weeks per year and is a Boeing 787 seating 234 passengers..... that's 36,504 seats each year that need to be filled which means nearly 100% of the Indian population in the Triangle would have to fly back per year on the specific days the nonstop operates and choose the nonstop flight to one specific city (versus a connecting flight to the actual city they are from within a massive country). The numbers just don't pencil out. If the flight was daily, the numbers are even worse... 85,410 seats to India per year meaning every single Indian in the Triangle would need to fly twice per year on the nonstop. Add in that RDU isn't a connecting hub, and an airline can't fill the seats with connecting passengers from other cities like they can in NY, Chicago, Washington DC, SF, et.

That's why the only nonstop flights to India from the USA are from four massive cities with over 100,000 Indian Americans: New York / Newark, Chicago, Washington DC, and San Francisco. 

Not to mention that US/India, like the majority of VFR markets (visiting friends + family) is extremely price sensitive. I know several people in DC who will happily book a flight with a long-layover in X country rather than taking the Air India nonstop just to save a $100 or so. A friend of mine flew Air China to New Delhi from DC via Beijing a couple years back and had a whopping 14 hour layover, all to save $80 or so. 

Just because a nonstop flight exists doesn't necessarily mean that people will book it. 

34 minutes ago, Miesian Corners said:

I hope you're right. When I look at the staging video and blueprints, the ticket lobby doesn't appear to get that much larger, as the ticket counters and queuing areas for TSA all get moved forward (towards the roadway). The area around the Queens Court on the ticketing level seems to be especially tight.

This was my observation as well. 

Thanks to the placement of escalators (both up and down) and the Queens Court area, I can't imagine the new ticketing lobby being wider than the existing one. The 3D Rendering Video available on the airport's YouTube page doesn't make the area appear that much wider than the lobby currently is:

I guess the queuing areas for TSA appear to be larger/wider so hopefully that will reduce overflow into the lobby. 

It would be great if AA stopped blocking access to Clear in their hub airports. 

Edited December 14, 2021 by LKN704

[Miesian Corners]

16 minutes ago, LKN704 said:

Thanks to the placement of escalators (both up and down) and the Queens Court area, I can't imagine the new ticketing lobby being wider than the existing one. The 3D Rendering Video available on the airport's YouTube page doesn't make the area appear that much wider than the lobby currently is:

I guess the queuing areas for TSA appear to be larger/wider so hopefully that will reduce overflow into the lobby. 

It really does look as if maybe we only gain a few extra feet in the width of the lobby area.

 

[CltFlyer]

 

 

With my best editing skills.  I have highlighted the floor space that will be lost by moving the counters up a few feet.  The area immediately around the security check points and queens court may not be noticeably wider, but the other areas should have what I would estimate to be 2 to 2.5 times more space than is currently existing.  

On another note, has anyone came out and confirmed that we will be gaining ticket counters with the expansion?  They aren't really increasing the width of the terminal and we are desperately short on ticket counters as is.