Charlotte-Douglas Airport (CLT) Expansion

[SydneyCarton]

On 1/24/2022 at 8:42 AM, csweet said:

Where do you think flights out of CLT are originating? LOL

Puddle jumpers from Raleigh, Columbia, Richmond, and other regional cities.

Do an Expedia search of AA flights from Raleigh to London.  They all go RDU to Clt to Lon.  The same is probably true for other cities in the region like Columbia, Richmond, etc.

 

 

Edited January 25, 2022 by SydneyCarton

[Richhamleigh, DC]

On 1/21/2022 at 12:25 PM, CltFlyer said:

Interesting to note.  Only 4 cities on this list have a current metro population of less than 12 million.

7.  Atlanta-6,089,815- 1 Airport 

10- Chicago - 9,618,502- 3 Airports* (2 significant)

13- Dubai- 5,640,000- 2 Airports* (1 significant)

15- Dallas- 7,637,387- 2 Airports

 

If it weren't for the sheikh money  in Dubai.  It wouldn't be on the list.  

 

ATL wouldn't be on the list if it weren't for Delta.

[CarolinaDaydreamin]

3 hours ago, Phillydog said:

ATL wouldn't be on the list if it weren't for Delta.

Atlanta is the single best located Airport in the US for connections. Delta is the most profitable airline in the world because of Atlanta. AA in Charlotte is a similar story to a lesser extent. 

[TCLT]

On 1/22/2022 at 8:27 PM, TCLT said:

This is kinda true from a ground service perspective. Admrials club are more plentiful and have more amenities at the high value hubs. Flagship lounges, Flagship First dining, various levels of Five Star Service are only available at higher revenue hubs. And the investments AA makes in facilities at high revenue airports is way more than what they put into CLT. The planes and inflight service is more or less the same at all airports, but the overall experience isn't. 

Prime example, this JFK Terminal 8 refresh.

Quote

As customers arrive at Terminal 8, a co-branded premium check-in area providing personalized, concierge-style service for top-tier guests will replace American’s former Flagship First Check-In space. Thoughtfully designed architectural elements will also define an exclusive new check-in space for eligible business customers.

Once through security, three distinctive custom lounges combining the best of both brands will provide a refined, welcoming preflight experience for select guests based on cabin of travel and loyalty program status. The expanded premium lounge offerings will incorporate seating for approximately 1,000 of American and British Airways’ most loyal customers. Each lounge has been designed with original high-end finishes — evoking a unique sense of space while elevating the experience and service offered to every guest.

• The most exclusive lounge will have an all-new champagne bar, fireside lounge and a la carte dining room, which reimagines American’s Flagship First Dining into a fully immersive experience.
• Adjacent, another premium lounge — with sweeping airside views, a wine bar, cocktail lounge, library and buffet — will offer an elevated, lively experience.
• American’s Flagship Lounge and Concourse B Admirals Club will be repurposed into a contiguous lounge for eligible business class customers.

 

[TCLT]

On 1/24/2022 at 9:04 AM, SydneyCarton said:

Do an Expedia search of AA flights from Raleigh to London.  They all go RDU to Clt to Lon.  The same is probably true for other cities in the region like Columbia, Richmond, etc.

You do understand this is the entire point of a hub and spoke network...

If you do a search of AA flights from CLT to London, you'll realize there's a nonstop flight from here. So what exactly is the point you're trying to make?

edit: Actually, it's probably better if you don't answer that.

Edited January 26, 2022 by TCLT

[SydneyCarton]

11 hours ago, TCLT said:

You do understand this is the entire point of a hub and spoke network...

If you do a search of AA flights from CLT to London, you'll realize there's a nonstop flight from here. So what exactly is the point you're trying to make?

edit: Actually, it's probably better if you don't answer that.

Someone woke up on the wrong side of the bed.  My point is that many flights from Charlotte aren't originating with people from the local area but rather from connections from other metros in the region like Raleigh.  

Edited January 26, 2022 by SydneyCarton

[TCLT]

6 minutes ago, SydneyCarton said:

Someone woke up on the wrong side of the bed.  My point is that many flights from Charlotte aren't originating with people from the local area but rather from connections from other metros in the region like Raleigh.  

Insightful

[csweet]

1 hour ago, SydneyCarton said:

Someone woke up on the wrong side of the bed.  My point is that many flights from Charlotte aren't originating with people from the local area but rather from connections from other metros in the region like Raleigh.  

Based on your posts here, and under other topics, you are either 14 or a bot.

[15895]

2 hours ago, SydneyCarton said:

Someone woke up on the wrong side of the bed.  My point is that many flights from Charlotte aren't originating with people from the local area but rather from connections from other metros in the region like Raleigh.  

I'll answer your question since it seems like you're sort of there.

Below is a route map from I believe US Airways. The function of the Charlotte hub for American Airlines is to connect people from different cities in a model that is called a hub-and-spoke system which basically means an airline flies thousands and thousands of passengers into a single location so people can have a one-stop connection. It is probably impossible to fill a plane with passengers from anywhere (including NYC) to New Bern NC or Gulfport MS. But when you have a few passengers from Montreal, Charlottesville, NYC, Paris, Chicago, Little Rock, etc. you can eventually have enough passengers to fill a plane.

At Charlotte, the planes come in waves (called "banks"). Most Hubs are Banks meaning flights come land and take-off in clusters to maximize connection opportunities.

Charlotte's American Airlines hub is about 90% connecting traffic and 10% O&D. O&D means Origin & Destination and basically that means people who start or end their trip at Charlotte (including for example if someone drove from Raleigh to Charlotte for a flight. They would be counted as a local Charlotte passenger.

So your hypothesis is correct, however, it's not just nearby metro areas connecting to Charlotte. It's all around the country (as show in the map above) and it's just a massive volume of people that makes it easier to fill planes.

I hope that was helpful? 

Edited January 26, 2022 by AirNostrumMAD

[KJHburg]

Is our local traffic still just 10% I know that is what was always said but we have had so much growth.  Plus tons of new parking at the airport that is used quite a bit. 

[TCLT]

27 minutes ago, KJHburg said:

Is our local traffic still just 10% I know that is what was always said but we have had so much growth.  Plus tons of new parking at the airport that is used quite a bit. 

The AA split is 90ish connecting and 10ish local. All traffic including the other airlines is closer to 80/20 split. I think the local numbers have ticked up somewhat from 10 and 20 over the last few years but those numbers are close enough for comparison. Even though local traffic has increased, AA has grown the hub overall which means more connecting pax as well so the split has remained relatively constant.

edit: Looks like CLT2014 got the actual data. 70/30 split means the AA split should actually be closer to 80/20.

Edited January 26, 2022 by TCLT
better info from CLT2014

[CLT2014]

22 minutes ago, KJHburg said:

Is our local traffic still just 10% I know that is what was always said but we have had so much growth.  Plus tons of new parking at the airport that is used quite a bit. 

For 2020, the city's report says the composition is "steady" at nearly 30% O&D. I believe the 10% metric is American Airline's market share at CLT, not the O&D percent.

"The composition of traffic in FY 2020 remained steady, with approximately 29.5 percent O&D and 70.5 percent connecting passenger activity. (O&D passengers are those beginning or ending their trips at the Airport, as opposed to connecting passengers who change planes at the Airport to reach their final destination.)"

https://charlottenc.gov/GS/procurement/publications/FY20_Airport_Statements.pdf

Edited January 26, 2022 by CLT2014

[JRCLT]

“An airline hub or hub airport is an airport used by one or more airlines to concentrate passenger traffic and flight operations. Hubs serve as transfer points to help get passengers to their final destination. It is part of the hub-and-spoke system.” (Google “What is an airport hub”)

So…CLT is a hub. Okay.

[csweet]

Does anyone know when the FIS/ Concourse D Renovations are going to start? They are supposed to be putting out the bid packages soon.

[BarrenLucidity]

On 1/26/2022 at 2:35 PM, CLT2014 said:

For 2020, the city's report says the composition is "steady" at nearly 30% O&D. I believe the 10% metric is American Airline's market share at CLT, not the O&D percent.

"The composition of traffic in FY 2020 remained steady, with approximately 29.5 percent O&D and 70.5 percent connecting passenger activity. (O&D passengers are those beginning or ending their trips at the Airport, as opposed to connecting passengers who change planes at the Airport to reach their final destination.)"

https://charlottenc.gov/GS/procurement/publications/FY20_Airport_Statements.pdf

Wow, that's a lot of non-AA O&D. Frontier, United, Delta, etc. 

Would kill for a JetBlue expansion. They won't but I would love Mint to SFO or SEA. 

Edited January 28, 2022 by BarrenLucidity

[CLT2014]

23 minutes ago, BarrenLucidity said:

Wow, that's a lot of non-AA O&D. Frontier, United, Delta, etc. 

Would kill for a JetBlue expansion. They won't but I would Mint to SFO or SEA. 

That doesn't mean the 30% O&D is all on other airlines. Some of the traffic on American Airlines at CLT is also O&D (just not the majority). For example, most of my personal O&D travel out of CLT is on AA such as CLT - LAX last month. I would have been an O&D passenger on the plane counting towards the 30% overall for the airport.

Some AA routes at CLT have a larger O&D percentage of passengers on the plane while others are almost entirely connections. For example AA CLT - New York routes have a good amount of O&D travelers, whereas most AA CLT - Greenville, SC flights are 100% connecting passengers. 

Given JetBlue's partnership with American Airlines, there is pretty much zero chance of significant expansion by them here at CLT. No point when AA has all the key routes covered with multiple flights per day. JetBlue is barely utilizing their one gate as is... just 1 daily flight to Boston. If anything, they are "gate squatting" with an entire gate at the airport empty other than one 12:30PM departure each day. More likely than an expansion is JetBlue exits CLT completely and just codeshares with AA on CLT - BOS, that already operates 9 nonstop flights between the two cities each day.

Edited January 27, 2022 by CLT2014

[TCLT]

23 minutes ago, BarrenLucidity said:

Wow, that's a lot of non-AA O&D. Frontier, United, Delta, etc. 

Would kill for a JetBlue expansion. They won't but I would Mint to SFO or SEA. 

All other airline traffic, which is 10% of total, is O&D since none of them operate a connecting hub here (yes there's probably some negligible amount of connecting itineraries sold on OALs). So that's a third of the O&D share.

[CltFlyer]

Charlotte back to 86% of the record 2019 passenger numbers in 2021.

https://cltairport.mediaroom.com/2021_YearEnd_Count

Construction/Airport Updates

“There’s excitement about what lies ahead for CLT, especially as we reach Destination CLT milestones,” Gentry said. “This year alone the Airport is opening an expansion of Concourse E, the west end of the expanded terminal lobby, The Club CLT on Concourse A, and new concessions throughout the terminal. Our plans also include installing several new art pieces and beginning construction on a 10-gate expansion of Concourse A. We’re looking forward to sharing these big moments with our passengers in 2022.” 

 

[KJHburg]

Yes here is a nice little graphic about passenger counts

[SydneyCarton]

From today’s Observer.

https://www.charlotteobserver.com/news/business/article257889843.html

 

Edited February 1, 2022 by SydneyCarton

[uptownliving]

12 hours ago, KJHburg said:

Yes here is a nice little graphic about passenger counts

I think it is also important to add more perspective to the  press release.

The last time the airport had passenger numbers that low was 2013, nearly a decade ago.  Compared to other airports Charlotte's numbers are very strong but its also important to remember that nearly a decades worth of growth at CLT has been wiped out by the pandemic.

For those wondering when Concourse B and C will be expanded look at the construction schedule for Concourse A:

Construction is due to start later this year....add 2 years for construction and that puts us in 2024.

When the new phase of Concourse A is open, Delta will move to those gates and American will take over the old Delta gates.

That allows half of Concourse B to be closed so that it can be expanded in 2025ish.

 

There are going to be more big changes with commercial aviation  and I think CLT is positioned well to take advantage and thrive in the new environment.

[JRCLT]

Concourse A set to break ground spring or summer this year?

[CltFlyer]

7 hours ago, uptownliving said:

I think it is also important to add more perspective to the  press release.

The last time the airport had passenger numbers that low was 2013, nearly a decade ago.  Compared to other airports Charlotte's numbers are very strong but its also important to remember that nearly a decades worth of growth at CLT has been wiped out by the pandemic.

For those wondering when Concourse B and C will be expanded look at the construction schedule for Concourse A:

Construction is due to start later this year....add 2 years for construction and that puts us in 2024.

When the new phase of Concourse A is open, Delta will move to those gates and American will take over the old Delta gates.

That allows half of Concourse B to be closed so that it can be expanded in 2025ish.

 

There are going to be more big changes with commercial aviation  and I think CLT is positioned well to take advantage and thrive in the new environment.

We reached that number without having most of our TATL flights though.  Once you add in a "hopefully" much expanded TATL offering this summer.  We will be closer to the 2014-2018 numbers  in 2022.  

Have they confirmed if they are expanding B or C first?  I think C was planned to be first, which would also include new FIS gates, but who knows if that has changed.  Given the timeline, by 2030, B and C expansions should be complete and they can move on to further expansion (midfield terminal?).  

It's easy to complain about how long it is taking to expand, but imho they are doing the best they can without having to give up gates while expanding.  

[KJHburg]

1972 photo of CLT and the dominant airline Eastern Airlines! and yes this stands as the Cargo terminal on West Blvd side of the airport. 

Edited February 4, 2022 by KJHburg

[videtur quam contuor]

On 6/1/2016 at 3:28 PM, tarhoosier said:

I can easily remember this previous terminal. It is still here on the West Boulevard side or the freight side of the airport. Just drive in and you can see for yourself. I am the old guy with the memory here on the board so I can tell you about the Dogwood Room in the upper level where anyone (pre-TSA) could have a meal or drink and watch the airport traffic. Everyone walked out on the concrete and boarded by a rolling step contraption. In the terminal there were coin operated machines, looked like news paper vending, but were insurance policies for sale for your next flight. Covered death by airplane a flight at a time. For real. This was a smaller town and the air traveling public made a different proportion than today. Not unusual to see someone I knew at the terminal either traveling or working. The idea of earlier air terminals was built on the railroad stations of the time; porters with bright colored uniforms, desk agents, paper tickets, lots of paper punches and rubber stamping.

Now, back to this century, the idea of pride in the representation of the city through the air terminal was certainly there 50 years ago as it is now. The airport was/is "ours" in a larger sense. That is my impression.

My post from 2016 about the older terminal. Well dressed travelers, air travel as an important and rare experience. Recent information shows 11% to 18% f US has never flown in  a plane, if you believe the surveys from several sources.