Soleil Center I & II at Crabtree

[ChiefJoJo]

from Bob geary's article in the Indy (last year):

The site isn't that small--it's almost five acres--but only 1.37 acres of it is zoned Office & Institutional-2 for some reason nobody can seem to remember. And, also for no discernible reason except that it's a zoning category created specifically so that state government could build its monstrosity of a "mall" in any configuration it wanted, O&I-2 has no height limit. But anything over 50 feet, the Council must approve.

Enter the Soleil group, a Cary-based company that runs hotels. It bought the old Sheraton with the intention--taking what they say at face value--of gutting and upfitting it to Westin Hotel standards. But when they took the place over, they realized--uh, oh--it's much worse than we thought. We're going to have to tear it down and start again. Ouch, huh?

But here's the problem. To be able to afford a teardown, they couldn't just build on the same footprint, they had to build bigger, which meant higher. But only the 1.37 acres were eligible to go higher without a rezoning, which means the condo stack had to be extremely spindly and therefore very high.

Are you with me? If Soleil had used all five acres for the deck-hotel-condo setup, they could've put the 54 condos into maybe six more floors, or seven or eight, but they wouldn't have needed 24 more. But that would've required a rezoning application for the entire site, which takes time and might've generated opposition. But Soleil could build a 42-story tower on the O&I-2 portion with nothing more than site plan approval, which is what the PC recommended and the council approved in the usual wink of an eye.

And by the way, why 54 residential units, exactly? Because O&I-2 does have a density limit of 40 residential units per acre, and that's all Soleil could stack up there without, again, needing a rezoning.

It's really a BS process if you read this, and he's really got it right. The real reason they went with this once they knew a teardown was req'd, is because they were afraid to apply for a rezoning petition. Five acres, but only the 1.37 is O&1-2 @ 40units/acre, so you have 1.37x40 = 54 condos stacked way up in the sky. Coincidence? The Soliel Group could have achieved even more density without the rediculous height if they just applied for the rezoning and built on the whole 5 acres, but instead, they exploited the zoning code and our idiotic council fell for it. In the end, I think it will make Raleigh look incredibly foolish.

[sax184]

Soleil now seems like a bait and switch. The project originally named GlenTree, with its four star hotel, condos, no office space, and a negliable affect on traffic, is passed in a week without going to committee? Then they add a 14-18 story office tower and expect the same "don't ask questions or we'll take our hotel and go elsewhere" treatment?

You're exactly right, and because Raleigh is owned by the real estate developer/sprawl complex, bait and switch is generally how business gets done in Raleigh. One week from concept plan made public to Council approval. It still blows my mind.

As for the TTA line "going where people want to go" canard, I'm sorry, but the line is in THE RIGHT PLACE. Downtown Raleigh, NCSU, and Duke Hospital (yes, I know it's not in the 12 stations, but it is most likely to be station 13) are three of the biggest concentrations of employment (read: daily trips). It also goes through RTP which contains 40,000 workers and one station is very close to 13,000 of them at IBM.

Maybe you *want* to go to Crabtree or Triangle Town Center, but people DO go to work, whether they want to or not, at places along the rail corridor, in large numbers. There are extensive plans for high density development at all the stations, including zoning in place for 50 Dwelling Units an acre in Downtown Cary.

The outer loop on the map east of Holly Springs and south of Knightdale- who wants to go there? What's there? If we used that criterion as a deciding choice in transportation investment, we would never build new roads, and only widen existing ones.

[ncsugrad204]

Why are you guys harpering over spill milk. First this is a very good development . Yes they may have played the council but they have taking a depleted piece of property with high value and untilized it with a very tall structure that for the time being will be out of place. but they are in a great location in the fact that it is a valley and most of the height of the building will be seen on the glenwood corridor. The area was zone for very dense development and i believe that is what they are given. Also not many of the neighbors complained and many of them endosred it. So if these people endorsed it why does it bother us who live someplace else and probably not in raleigh?

[Transplant]

How high does the flood plain go in this area? I seem to remember the mall flooded during a recent hurricane.

As far as TTA, this probably belongs in a different thread, but I'll ask it here: How many people live AND work within 1/2 mile of the line? Those will be the majority of people who take the line. From talking with just about everyone, it's not convenient to take a bus to the train, take the train, then hop on another bus, and most folks won't use it. The fact that its not even close to the RBC Center/Arena is just terrible.

[avery]

Why are you guys harpering over spill milk. First this is a very good development . Yes they may have played the council but they have taking a depleted piece of property with high value and untilized it with a very tall structure that for the time being will be out of place. but they are in a great location in the fact that it is a valley and most of the height of the building will be seen on the glenwood corridor. The area was zone for very dense development and i believe that is what they are given. Also not many of the neighbors complained and many of them endosred it. So if these people endorsed it why does it bother us who live someplace else and probably not in raleigh?

I live in Raleigh, about 1.5 miles from where the Soliel Center is going to be built. I completely agree with you though. Why are so many of you offended so much by this proposal? My guess is because 1) it will look out of place and 2) because it is not downtown. First, I don't think it will be completely out of place. I think it will look good and we will probably see more high-intensity development in the future here at Crabtree Valley. I think the second tower by Soliel helps tremendously to balance out the first tower and creates more uniformity. Second, there are plenty of proposals popping up downtown and I don't see it stopping anytime soon. If anything, it opened up the door for something greater downtown. I remember last year when the council balked at the Reynolds site, saying it was too tall for its location. What the heck??

That was an iteresting read from the INDY. I still don't see the problem though. The Soliel Group followed the guideline to a T. If anything, the zoning and comprehensive plan was flawed if this is not what the city intended. You guys that are complaining ought to get over it and accept the fact that Raleigh's new tallest will be delivered in a year and a half. Try to think forward and not backwards (i.e. where are we going from here?).

[jlblaes]

How high does the flood plain go in this area? I seem to remember the mall flooded during a recent hurricane.

As far as TTA, this probably belongs in a different thread, but I'll ask it here: How many people live AND work within 1/2 mile of the line? Those will be the majority of people who take the line. From talking with just about everyone, it's not convenient to take a bus to the train, take the train, then hop on another bus, and most folks won't use it. The fact that its not even close to the RBC Center/Arena is just terrible.

We live in N Raleigh near Creedmoor and Strickland - my wife works downtown in the Bank of America Building on Fayetteville Street and I work on Cent Campus at NC State. We'd love to take the train to work but we'd have to drive about 15 minutes to the nixed Spring Forest station and find a place to park or take a bus. I'd have to take a bus from the Reynolds Coliseum station to my office about 2 miles away.

My 20 minute commute now easily exceeds an hour.

Roundtrip would cost $6 a day I guess plus parking ?

I'm actually a supporter of the TTA and I'm not gonna ride.

JB

[Raleighsfinest]

I live in Raleigh, about 1.5 miles from where the Soliel Center is going to be built. I completely agree with you though. Why are so many of you offended so much by this proposal? My guess is because 1) it will look out of place and 2) because it is not downtown. First, I don't think it will be completely out of place. I think it will look good and we will probably see more high-intensity development in the future here at Crabtree Valley. I think the second tower by Soliel helps tremendously to balance out the first tower and creates more uniformity. Second, there are plenty of proposals popping up downtown and I don't see it stopping anytime soon. If anything, it opened up the door for something greater downtown. I remember last year when the council balked at the Reynolds site, saying it was too tall for its location. What the heck??

That was an iteresting read from the INDY. I still don't see the problem though. The Soliel Group followed the guideline to a T. If anything, the zoning and comprehensive plan was flawed if this is not what the city intended. You guys that are complaining ought to get over it and accept the fact that Raleigh's new tallest will be delivered in a year and a half. Try to think forward and not backwards (i.e. where are we going from here?).

You and ncsugrad are my new best friends. I mean what the heck type of complaining is this? This is a top notch development!!!!!!! Just because it is much more prominant than the rest of the monotony, surrounding it, doesn't mean that it is a bad project. On top of that the design is exotic and a breath of fresh air for this town. It kills me to think that if a stuccoed 10 story project took it's place no one would complain. I hope Soleil makes it 50 stories, just to tick the mayberrys off.

[Transplant]

We live in N Raleigh near Creedmoor and Strickland - my wife works downtown in the Bank of America Building on Fayetteville Street and I work on Cent Campus at NC State. We'd love to take the train to work but we'd have to drive about 15 minutes to the nixed Spring Forest station and find a place to park or take a bus. I'd have to take a bus from the Reynolds Coliseum station to my office about 2 miles away.

My 20 minute commute now easily exceeds an hour.

Roundtrip would cost $6 a day I guess plus parking ?

I'm actually a supporter of the TTA and I'm not gonna ride.

JB

I have a similar situation, however I support the idea of the TTA, but not in its current implentation.

I fully support the Soleil Center I & II. Maybe they'll use the remaining ~3.5 acres for additional towers/development. I wouldn't be surprised.

[avery]

You and ncsugrad are my new best friends. I mean what the heck type of complaining is this? This is a top notch development!!!!!!! Just because it is much more prominant than the rest of the monotony, surrounding it, doesn't mean that it is a bad project. On top of that the design is exotic and a breath of fresh air for this town. It kills me to think that if a stuccoed 10 story project took it's place no one would complain. I hope Soleil makes it 50 stories, just to tick the mayberrys off.

This building looks like something right out of Chicago. It is something that Raleigh should be proud to have. Unfortunately, most of what I've heard thus far is complaining about how Soliel screwed the city and weasled thier way in here. I just don't get it. If anything, it appears that they are great local people with good intentions. I'll take this proposal anyday over that mess that was previously there.

[Raleighsfinest]

This building looks like something right out of Chicago. It is something that Raleigh should be proud to have. Unfortunately, most of what I've heard thus far is complaining about how Soliel screwed the city and weasled thier way in here. I just don't get it. If anything, it appears that they are great local people with good intentions. I'll take this proposal anyday over that mess that was previously there.

Thank you. Also it certainly does look like something out of Chicago . I wonder if the building will be shipped here instead? Man, UPS is going to have a field day behind this one!

[plus2]

I have a similar situation, however I support the idea of the TTA, but not in its current implentation.

I think you are where a lot of people are with the TTA. This design, wouldn't be my first choice either. BUT, it goes where the rail lines are, significantly reducing the cost. It also connects the major employment centers of the region. This is about as good as can be expected for the FIRST LEG!

Once we have it started, then future lines can connect other areas like Crabtree or the Airport. But we have to start somewhere, and the current configuration is the most logical start.

[MR-2]

This building looks like something right out of Chicago. It is something that Raleigh should be proud to have. Unfortunately, most of what I've heard thus far is complaining about how Soliel screwed the city and weasled thier way in here. I just don't get it. If anything, it appears that they are great local people with good intentions. I'll take this proposal anyday over that mess that was previously there.

Look back at all the glen-tree news in the N&O, or convention center news, and read the comments. They're almost disturbingly scary. They're the sort of blind radicalism you'd expect from some other state... some other city... not here. Apparently Cary attracts crazy people.

There's a very strong culture of suburbanism residing here, among many residents and corporations. Some people, particularly the ones that support the Soleil project, consider downtown Raleigh an economic sinkhole, and only surpassed in uselessness by the entire city of Durham. They consider Crabtree downtown if anything. They support the project because they seriously, utterly believe it will help pull business away from downtown.

They think that the lack of an affordable housing market downtown is the result of people not wanting to live in urban areas, rather than people being forced to live in suburban areas DUE to a lack of affordable housing.

It isn't necessarily the fact that the project was approved, but the principle of the thing. From now on, no matter how poorly integrated a proposal is with traffic, with the city's zoning, with other development plans, or the market for that matter, it's fair game for approval. It could be as ugly as the proposed Freedom Tower in New York, and it's fair game. We can put spiky things up all over the place now. There's no incentive to concentrate the population in pockets that are easy to link with transit, and easy to make walkable.

[Eastwestrob]

This building looks like something right out of Chicago. It is something that Raleigh should be proud to have. Unfortunately, most of what I've heard thus far is complaining about how Soliel screwed the city and weasled thier way in here. I just don't get it. If anything, it appears that they are great local people with good intentions. I'll take this proposal anyday over that mess that was previously there.

As stated in another thread...It is my 2nd favorite tower in NC next B of A. And it is a very close 2nd.

[RaleighRick]

This building looks like something right out of Chicago. It is something that Raleigh should be proud to have. Unfortunately, most of what I've heard thus far is complaining about how Soliel screwed the city and weasled thier way in here. I just don't get it. If anything, it appears that they are great local people with good intentions. I'll take this proposal anyday over that mess that was previously there.

Absolutely. We need to look at this as a much needed development in Raleigh and not something that downtown missed out on. I would rather it be DT also, but according to Ken Adkins, the head of Wake County Economic Development, the city desperately needs this 4-star, architecturally significant hotel tower. Period. He entertains heads of major US and international companies and tries to sell them on this great region. When the exec flies in from Hong Kong, Singapore or Chicago currently the top two choices of hotel properties are the Marriott Crabtree or the Embassy Suites. Wow, how impressed they must be. The Soliel Center will be a major step forward for Raleigh in the world business community. And hopefully it raises the bar for all new buildings in Raleigh to be distinctive, impressive and lead to an even nicer tallest in downtown in the next few years.

[bdp]

Absolutely. We need to look at this as a much needed development in Raleigh and not something that downtown missed out on. I would rather it be DT also, but according to Ken Adkins, the head of Wake County Economic Development, the city desperately needs this 4-star, architecturally significant hotel tower. Period. He entertains heads of major US and international companies and tries to sell them on this great region. When the exec flies in from Hong Kong, Singapore or Chicago currently the top two choices of hotel properties are the Marriott Crabtree or the Embassy Suites. Wow, how impressed they must be. The Soliel Center will be a major step forward for Raleigh in the world business community. And hopefully it raises the bar for all new buildings in Raleigh to be distinctive, impressive and lead to an even nicer tallest in downtown in the next few years.

very well said...

[ChiefJoJo]

So those that support Soliel I, would you support it if it was 60, 80, 100 stories? Some of the comments here lead me to believe that many would so long as the design is appealing. Are there any limits as to what a developer can build and where they can build it? In this case, it seems there aren't too many. We approve a 42-story building at Crabtree, but we let NIMBYs tear apart a scaled down Coker plan (what morphed into Oberlin Court)?

I love the design of the Soliel Center, but I think it belongs DT or nowhere. The message we are sending to developers is, "you can exploit the zoning code and build whatever you want and we'll approve it, so long as there are no NIMBYs nearby." I think it will end up being a red herring and set a bad precident for the city in the future.

I realize this ship has sailed... I'm just trying to make a point about what this project may bring in the future.

[pdxheel]

So those that support Soliel I, would you support it if it was 60, 80, 100 stories? Some of the comments here lead me to believe that many would so long as the design is appealing. Are there any limits as to what a developer can build and where they can build it? In this case, it seems there aren't too many. We approve a 42-story building at Crabtree, but we let NIMBYs tear apart a scaled down Coker plan (what morphed into Oberlin Court)?

I love the design of the Soliel Center, but I think it belongs DT or nowhere. The message we are sending to developers is, "you can exploit the zoning code and build whatever you want and we'll approve it, so long as there are no NIMBYs nearby." I think it will end up being a red herring and set a bad precident for the city in the future.

I realize this ship has sailed... I'm just trying to make a point about what this project may bring in the future.

Agreed. Just because a building looks nice or is a certain number of stories doesn't mean it is good urban planning. This region lacks planning in a big way and it will come back to hurt us in the future. All the Soliel center does is bring short-term satisfaction that a tall building is being built.

[avery]

I just don't think a <500ft tower is bad for this location. I think it appears bad now, because it is currently Raleigh's tallest proposal and downtown is going through a revitalization at the same time, hungry for major announcements. If Raleigh gets three 500 foot propoosals and maybe a 700 footer in the future, no one on here would care if a few more high rises around 300-400 feet pop up in Crabtree Valley. It would just be a sign that Raleigh is growing up. If I'm not mistaken, Triangle Town Center and Brier Creek are designated as urban centers like Crabtree Valley. If Soliel were to have proposed this out near 540 in one of these areas, I would be against it. I think Crabtree is close enough to the city's center to accomodate it.

I hear what you are saying, but I don't think they are exploiting the zoning code. Rather, I think that they are following the code. I just don't understand why the blame is being shifted to the developers. They did nothing wrong. If anything, Raleigh would be to blame with this argument. Maybe they should revisit the small area and comprehensive plans to cap out heights in certain areas and I'm not talking drastically, maybe 350 feet. I don't want to see this building sitting there by itself with a sea of 5-6 story developments.

[sax184]

No, the blame here does not lie with developers. They have brought an out-of-place, anti-urban piece of development to the table that does nothing to make the city a more urban and less suburban place. But just because they don't understand what makes a city special doesn't make them villains.

The mistake here was made by the planning commission and the City Council, which ignored all practices of good government and ran the thing through so quickly your head would spin, with very little oversight.

In doing so, they proved that the comprehensive plan in Raleigh is a BIG FAT JOKE, and that the city runs on a "pay to play" basis where the developers are in charge.

[pdxheel]

I just don't understand why the blame is being shifted to the developers. They did nothing wrong. If anything, Raleigh would be to blame with this argument. Maybe they should revisit the small area and comprehensive plans to cap out heights in certain areas and I'm not talking drastically, maybe 350 feet. I don't want to see this building sitting there by itself with a sea of 5-6 story developments.

The problem is not the developer. He/she is doing what is allowed. The problem is Raleigh.

[RDUairport]

Sorry this is sorta off topic, but with the Soliel tower being anywhere from 42 to 46 floors, depending on how you look at it why is it only going to be ~480 feet tall. The BB&T is 29 stories (correct me if I'm wrong) and stands at 431 feet. Are the height deminsions for floors different due to one being for business while the other is more residental? Thanks for any information into this.

[Justin6882]

Each level for office space is usually bigger than that for residential. Which is why a residential project can have more stories, yet still be shorter or just slightly taller than a commercial building with less floors.

[RDUairport]

Justin6882,

Thanks for clearing that up for me. I figured it was something along those lines, but wasn't sure. I just hope Raleigh will be able to see something over 500 feet with a couple of years.

[NCpride]

No, the blame here does not lie with developers. They have brought an out-of-place, anti-urban piece of development to the table that does nothing to make the city a more urban and less suburban place. But just because they don't understand what makes a city special doesn't make them villains.

The mistake here was made by the planning commission and the City Council, which ignored all practices of good government and ran the thing through so quickly your head would spin, with very little oversight.

In doing so, they proved that the comprehensive plan in Raleigh is a BIG FAT JOKE, and that the city runs on a "pay to play" basis where the developers are in charge.

Just wondering how you call this development "anti-urban"? If it were downtown would you still label it this way?

[avery]

It is an urban development IMO. Sure, it doesn't have walkability or ground floor retail, but that is because of its location on a flood plain. This project have offices in Soliel II, a hotel and residential in Soliel I. Looks like a fairly complete project if you ask me.

I was thumbing through a Travel + Leisure magazine yesterday at the doctor's office and saw a full page ad for Soliel. Same as in the N&O, just glossier and a little easier to see. I bet once this thing gets built, everyone will drive by it and say, "damn that thing looks good."