Soleil Center I & II at Crabtree

[carynative]

Check out this satellite photo:

Google Maps of Brier Creek

Look at all the higher-density housing on the left side of Brier Creek Parkway, and look at all the retail on the right side. The two are separated by a huge, high-speed road with acres of parking at both. It would be hard to intentionally design a more pedestrian-hostile setup. It's ridiculous to separate this stuff as Raleigh has done because they have guaranteed that every time someone who lives along Brier Leaf Ln needs a gallon of milk, they're getting in the car to get it, adding unneeded congestion to US 70 and Brier Creek Parkway.

It would illustrate your very valid point more effectively if the photo weren't so old. More than half of Brier Creek isn't shown on this photo. Wal-Mart and most of the shopping center weren't build when this was taken. Driving through here at times is horrible, I couldn't imagine just trying to cross Brier Creek Parkway to get to the restaurants. We have good friends who live here and NEVER would we go to their apt. and dare to cross the parkway for a night out, we just drive.

I think that the Soleil Center (as good economically as it is for Raleigh) is just going to create massive traffic problems in the Crabtree area. Ever tried to get through there between Nov. 28 and Dec. 24. Even on a daily basis its just bad.

[Cary NC]

Traffic is definitely an issue in Crabtree area. I wonder if the developers will hookup with Crabtree and build a pedistran bridge to hook the mall into the hotel.

Secondly. I think a trolley from Crabtree to glenwood south would be a great way to alleviate some entertianment traffic. Your thoughts.

(maybe not the appropiate thread to discuss, just let me know.)

[carynative]

I've always thought that a pedestrian bridge from the Soleil into the mall (probably at Macy's) is the only smart opition. Creedmoor Road at the mall is too busy for anyone to cross safely and it could be enclosed with glass for comfort and maybe even a moving sidewalk. Also, it would be a real striking feature for that area. I'm sure Macy's wouldn't mind the foot traffic and additional potential shoppers.

[ChiefJoJo]

You can bet that if it needs to come at the developer's expense, a ped bridge won't happen.

[plus2]

There should be a Crabtree Area Development Initiative, where all the players in the area (the mall, Soleil, Kidd's hill developers, Brookhaven neighbors, Embassy Suites, Highwoods, etc.) come together and discuss plans for creating a "neighborhood." They could each pitch in a little money and throw in some money from the city to pay for streetscape improvements, pedestrian bridges or other connectivity projects that would benefit all the players involved.

It would take leadership, but I think it would go a long way into making the entire Crabtree area a destination (not just a mall).

[carynative]

You can bet that if it needs to come at the developer's expense, a ped bridge won't happen.

Agreed. I was just saying it "wishingly." I agree with Plus 2 that there is a great opportunity for a neighbood athmosphere to develop in the Crabtree area; however, it will take work. The great barrier to connectivity is the high traffic volumes on the two main routes in the area, Glenwood and Creedmoor/Creedmoor Rd. Ext. I think that by scope of their projects, the Soleil developers and the mall folks would need to take the lead on any initiative and I think they should, given the impact of their facilities in the area.

[cophead567]

Traffic is definitely an issue in Crabtree area. I wonder if the developers will hookup with Crabtree and build a pedistran bridge to hook the mall into the hotel.

Secondly. I think a trolley from Crabtree to glenwood south would be a great way to alleviate some entertianment traffic. Your thoughts.

(maybe not the appropiate thread to discuss, just let me know.)

i've thought of the same thing. with more residents moving around glenwood south, some kind of trolley or mono-rail or just something connecting that area to crabtree may be an option. i think you would have to get really creative to get from one end to the other as building a corridor would be tricky.

i agree with everyone on the fact that soleil is not helping urbanity in the area. the way i see it is that the hotel portion, i think, will be a success. close to the mall, easy drives to downtown, RBC center, airport, i-40. a good central location for visitors to the area. office tenants? not to sure about the desire here, anyone?

[DwnTwnRaleighGuy]

One of the biggest players in such an endever,(State DOT), hasn't been a good player in a long time. There have been time when other developers came along and wanted to help pay for road changes, but DOT said, NO! It either wasn't in the cards for them or just not interested in that area of town. This was probably between 5-10 years ago. Maybe things have changed at the DOT?

[sax184]

What I see is the only solution to many issues (sprawl, lack of transit, etc) comes down to poor leadership. The city council has to be blamed, including the mayor.

We're in 100% agreement here!

[ncwebguy]

CAT bus route 6 already runs from Glenwood South to Crabtree and beyond to Townridge Shopping Center, which could double as a park and ride lot. We don't need a trolley -- we need to use improve and promote existing public transportation. There could be better circulation options, a northwest connector from rex through crabtree up creedmoor, along millbrook, to Six Forks/North Hills. Another route could go from North Hills through north/north central raleigh over to Triangle Town Center. This would complement the existing Capital Blvd service (1), Crabree (6), North Hills (8), and Brier Creek (70e).

Soliel residents *won't* take the bus. They don't want to, they don't have to. They probably won't walk to Crabtree. They *won't* walk to the grocery store or restaurants. They *might* walk to work if they have a job in the office tower.

By contrast, RBC Plaza residents can, and probably will, walk to work, a wider variety of restaurants, and probably a grocery store. Capital City Grocery will open soon (stock is on some shelves) and will open an "express" location somewhere near F Street in the next few years. The cars of condo owners will be parked a lot more at RBC than Soleil.

Office workers in the X story tower (where X is a number changes all the time, and city council has not approved yet that I know of) won't all live in Soliel -- there aren't enough units. These trips, plus the hotel's staff and guests, will make the bad situation that is Glenwood/Creedmoor/Edwards Mill a lot worse. Out of all the Soleil visitors, only the hotel staff will likely use mass transit. There was never a restaurant or spa at the old hotel, so that will add to the visit count as well. People here are putting too much stock in "shopping at Crabtree" as a traffic reducer or perk.

That area has been spoiled by a perfect "anti-storm" -- the closure of the old Four Seasons by Sheraton, ECPI's move out Glenwood, Kidds Hill Plaza implosion, Capital Bank's exodus, and the opening of Southpoint, Triangle Town Center and Brier Creek shopping destinations have reduced traffic going through the area. There are easy-ish drives in and out of that area certain times of day, ten of twelve months of the year.

The traffic counts give the false appearance the existing infrastructure has enough excess capacity to support the Soleil project (tower and offices), but once Soleil and any other project in the area (Kidds Hill itself, the plaza's redvelopment, etc.) comes online, gridlock will ensue.

Also, there are two grocery stores "in" Brier Creek (Earth Fare and Lowes on the "apartment" side of the parkway) yet I've never seen anyone walk to either one. No one walks to Target or BJs either.

[JTsaysToYou]

Will soleil cause that much traffic? At least the condo part shouldn't there are only, what fifty-so condos? The hotel will, but again, compared to just another condo project with smaller units on a more spread out scale, will it really effect traffic all that much? I think the height convinces people it will, but the density doesnt seem like it would. Then again i may be completely wrong, am I?

[uptownliving]

I asked the question a month or so ago. Has Soleil applied for building permits yet? This would be an indication this thing is a go and would give a window of when construction would actually start.

[plus2]

The original Soleil building could not possibly increase traffic congestion. The hotel is a hotel! A lot of people won't even have cars, but remember a hotel of similar size was there already. The condos would only marginally affect the number of new cars.

The problem is with the increase in office space from Soleil 2. But again, there is already office space there so its only marginally more car traffic.

[urbanvb]

Trying to compare Va Beach to Raleigh is well a moot point as we don't really have a DT persay. Anyway, they say our 40 storey Westin tower (with condos) being built in our newly developing core will add about 5500 new cars to our already taxed Independence Blvd .. just as a point of reference.

[ChiefJoJo]

One thing to remember with respect to traffic generated by Soleil Center... the calculations the city looks at are at predevelopment uses (with existing hotel & offices in place) versus post development with the hotel/condos of Soleil. In other words, there may not be a significant increase in traffic compared to when the Sheraton was operational and those other offices were occupied. In fact, I believe that despite Soleil's height, the number of rooms is very close to what the Sheraton had, and the condo tower portion has at most 2 units per floor, which isn't very dense at all.

To me it's never been about traffic, density or even design of the building (I love it)... just very poor planning... regardless of density, where is it appropriate to build very tall structures in our city? 40+ story/480 ft tall buildings belong in DT period.

[only]

40+ story/480 ft tall buildings belong in DT period.

Only in the Park/Burgess concentric ring sense, which never really existed in modern cities.

[ncwebguy]

Are the traffic counts from when the old hotel and offices were used a good measure?

That was at least five years ago, before the Edwards Mill extension from Duraleigh to Wade Ave, and before the area's last five years of growth. If the hotel was doing well, it would still be operating today. Also, the hotel did not have a spa or signature restaurant that drew additional traffic on their own. Is everyone who works at the hotel, restaurant, and spa going to fly there?

Is doubling the amount of office space going to only marginally increase traffic? No.

I know this is an old press release (Feb 2005), but Starwood thought there would be a Westin in place months ago.

This could have been managable if they stuck to the old 3 to 2 room conversion deal, without demolition or the added condos.

I am taking a seminar class at UNC on urban development and it said going from public approval to construction should be a *much* shorter process than the almost year Soleil has gone through.

A Oct 4th N&O story states three lenders are offering $100 million to fund construction, but this may be due to excess equity available for construction.

[JTsaysToYou]

I am taking a seminar class at UNC on urban development and it said going from public approval to construction should be a *much* shorter process than the almost year Soleil has gone through.

A Oct 4th N&O story states three lenders are offering $100 million to fund construction, but this may be due to excess equity available for construction.

Wait, Does that say that soleil is acting a little sketchy?

[Transplant]

Are the traffic counts from when the old hotel and offices were used a good measure?

That was at least five years ago, before the Edwards Mill extension from Duraleigh to Wade Ave, and before the area's last five years of growth. If the hotel was doing well, it would still be operating today. Also, the hotel did not have a spa or signature restaurant that drew additional traffic on their own. Is everyone who works at the hotel, restaurant, and spa going to fly there?

Is doubling the amount of office space going to only marginally increase traffic? No.

I know this is an old press release (Feb 2005), but Starwood thought there would be a Westin in place months ago.

This could have been managable if they stuck to the old 3 to 2 room conversion deal, without demolition or the added condos.

I am taking a seminar class at UNC on urban development and it said going from public approval to construction should be a *much* shorter process than the almost year Soleil has gone through.

A Oct 4th N&O story states three lenders are offering $100 million to fund construction, but this may be due to excess equity available for construction.

what (exactly) would you like to see on the property that the Soleil will be on?

[ncwebguy]

what (exactly) would you like to see on the property that the Soleil will be on?

I'm not a professional anything, but here is what I've had in mind since I saw the original Glen Tree renderings.

A nice, four star hotel (Westin is fine), with fewer rooms than the old hotel -- how many people want to stay in a four star hotel at any one time? Significant use (lobby/gift shop, conference rooms) would start on the second floor, if not third, to stay out of the flood plain. Parking would be hidden to the southwest that would serve the hotel, condos, and offices. Nice material touches on the outside, and a few floors of condos -- more than the current one or two per floor -- above that, giving a 10-15 story structure and about 20 super exclusive condos on the top floors with a view, location, etc.

On the Glenwood side, there would be an 7-10 story tower, with upscale stores on the "ground floor" -- a few feet above the flood plain like Staples/Borders/Costco near Wake Forest/Six Forks. This floor would have the hotel's Spa, fitness facility, high end coffee shop/sandwich shop (La Madeline?), and possibly some ultra-luxe botiques or an art gallery (which is the kind of experience Soleil wants to bring). This would also hosue a two story signature restaurant, either by a celeb chef or something high end a la Morton's (if they don't go to 222 Glenwood). The kitchen would be on the second floor, out of the flood plain and the traffic on Glenwood would lend a big city backdrop and bring a sense of urbanity to the area. Floors 3-5 would be the high end office piece, with 6 to the top (7 or 10) would be more high end condos with high celings and larger floorplans than the hotel tower's units. The office/condo/ritzy apartment (for people who don't want to buy) ratio could be determined by the pre-consturction demand. The condo floors would have their hallway along Glenwood with floor to ceiling windows, providing a noise barrier between the street and condos. The condo floors would get shorter with fewer units going up floor by floor, finishing with a single unit top floor unit. This would break out of the "box" mentality not just in the Crabree area but most of the Triangle. It could even be shaped like a Triangle if the footprint allows for it.

The whole complex would have a unified look of glass, steel and light, and something unique, like a gradual curve, rounded corners, spires, etc. A good balance between office, hotel, condos/apartments and general public uses with traffic yet be high end enough to make a statment and a decent profit.

RE: the N&O finance story -- the three offers for financing shows that getting a construction loan is *not* the reason bulldozers and cranes are not on site already. Something else is holding things up, either permits, approval for the office piece, or something else. Is this sketchy? Who knows...

[JTsaysToYou]

$20 says they're uping the height to beat RBC

[Transplant]

I'm not a professional anything, but here is what I've had in mind since I saw the original Glen Tree renderings.

A nice, four star hotel (Westin is fine), with fewer rooms than the old hotel -- how many people want to stay in a four star hotel at any one time? Significant use (lobby/gift shop, conference rooms) would start on the second floor, if not third, to stay out of the flood plain. Parking would be hidden to the southwest that would serve the hotel, condos, and offices. Nice material touches on the outside, and a few floors of condos -- more than the current one or two per floor -- above that, giving a 10-15 story structure and about 20 super exclusive condos on the top floors with a view, location, etc.

On the Glenwood side, there would be an 7-10 story tower, with upscale stores on the "ground floor" -- a few feet above the flood plain like Staples/Borders/Costco near Wake Forest/Six Forks. This floor would have the hotel's Spa, fitness facility, high end coffee shop/sandwich shop (La Madeline?), and possibly some ultra-luxe botiques or an art gallery (which is the kind of experience Soleil wants to bring). This would also hosue a two story signature restaurant, either by a celeb chef or something high end a la Morton's (if they don't go to 222 Glenwood). The kitchen would be on the second floor, out of the flood plain and the traffic on Glenwood would lend a big city backdrop and bring a sense of urbanity to the area. Floors 3-5 would be the high end office piece, with 6 to the top (7 or 10) would be more high end condos with high celings and larger floorplans than the hotel tower's units. The office/condo/ritzy apartment (for people who don't want to buy) ratio could be determined by the pre-consturction demand. The condo floors would have their hallway along Glenwood with floor to ceiling windows, providing a noise barrier between the street and condos. The condo floors would get shorter with fewer units going up floor by floor, finishing with a single unit top floor unit. This would break out of the "box" mentality not just in the Crabree area but most of the Triangle. It could even be shaped like a Triangle if the footprint allows for it.

The whole complex would have a unified look of glass, steel and light, and something unique, like a gradual curve, rounded corners, spires, etc. A good balance between office, hotel, condos/apartments and general public uses with traffic yet be high end enough to make a statment and a decent profit.

RE: the N&O finance story -- the three offers for financing shows that getting a construction loan is *not* the reason bulldozers and cranes are not on site already. Something else is holding things up, either permits, approval for the office piece, or something else. Is this sketchy? Who knows...

Thanks.

As far as "how many people want to stay in a four star hotel at any one time? " I'm pretty sure developers would do some research. I like the idea of the structure built into multiple buildings. I also like the idea of the triangle footprint. Something like the Flat Iron Building would be sweet.

[ChiefJoJo]

Again, the ONLY reason they didn't do something on the order of what ncwebguy mentions (I tend to agree with the scale of what he's talking about) is because Soleil Group exploited the zoning code, which has no height limit above the portion of the tall tower. They knew they'd have the votes on the city council (who fell for it), so why go through a long rezoning process when you can use "shock and awe" and get it approved. I guess you could say it was shrewd business on one hand or poor planning on the other. Either way, this is the example of just how easy it is to get nearly any project built in Raleigh these days.

[JTsaysToYou]

^sadly, yeah, very true. Except when it comes to public art, and things that are cool.

[carynative]

If It Ever Gets Built Well, if it never materializes (and you know with as many proposals as are out there that some won't) at least they can claim to be the ones for knocking down the ugly Sheraton.