Triangle Regional Transit

[Spartan]

^Have these bumkins ever traveled anywhere? It took a trip to Charlotte to see mass transit-light rail style. Have they ever been to Europe, Portland, Boston, etc. etc.?

[JDC]

ncwebguy - I enjoyed your comments on the WRAL story.

Like Charlotte, it looks as though we'll have our fair share of opposition to regional rail of any kind. Some folks just don't know what's good for them I guess.

[monsoon]

......

Like Charlotte, it looks as though we'll have our fair share of opposition to regional rail of any kind. Some folks just don't know what's good for them I guess.

[orulz]

There was a huge segment in yesterday's N&O about the future of transit in the triangle.

Check it out here.

They address the question of what form transit in the Triangle should take, and how we should pay for it.

It mentions the two corridors that we already know about (Chapel Hill-Durham and Durant Road to Downtown Raleigh.) It also fleshes out the NCRR commuter rail proposal a bit more: the idea is to have four trips in each direction during each peak period, and one trip in each direction at midday. That would be a total of 9 daily round trips: not a whole lot, but enough to be useful.

The article says that a 0.5% sales tax hike across Wake, Durham, and Orange would raise about $82 million per year. Other possible revenue sources include:

• Increase vehicle registration fee by $5: $5 million

• Increase rental car tax by 5 percent: $8.7 million

• Increase real estate property tax by 0.05 percent: $45.7 million

• Increase vehicle property tax by 0.05 percent: $5 million

• Levy a real estate transfer tax of 0.4 percent: $57.8 million

• Levy a local gas and diesel tax of 5 cents per gallon: $31.9 million

• Levy a local income tax of 0.25 percent: $43.8 million

[ncwebguy]

Edited: Admin's note. Please read the rules when creating links to news papers and other discussion boards. We don't want to become a newsclipping service for the newspapers

I apologize for confusing Charlotte's half cent tax with the one the legislature approved last year. It is interesting that .5 cent sales tax would bring in $82 million, so the .25 cent tax would still generate a decent $42 million/year and wouldn't need any approval from the General Assembly. Though the half cent tax has a history of success in Charlotte, so it may be the way to go. This plus the existing rental car tax (which could be increased), and a TIF-like tax on land near the transit corridors could be enough to get something going.

The land, design, etc. already purchased with the federal money are not wasted. The land has probably gone up in value over time, so it would be even more cost prohibitive if we were at square one today.

I do think it needs more political AND business support. Orange and Durham counties have always been for it; Wake county commissioners are (finally) seeing the light, and the current Raleigh city council is as potentiall pro-transit/progressive growth as it has been in years.

[monsoon]

.....

I apologize for confusing Charlotte's half cent tax with the one the legislature approved last year. ....

[Durhamite]

I acutally rode Charlotte's Lynx this past weekend from Scalybark to the 7th St station. I posted my comments on the Charlotte forum. We'll definitely need something similar to this in the Triangle to provide transit alternatives.

The LRT ride was smooth, etc., but I was awe struck with amount of development in Southend (I was well aware of mass developments in Uptown). I think that's what the LRT could do for the Triangle, stimulate and densify growth along the proposed corridors.

[monsoon]

....

The LRT ride was smooth, etc., but I was awe struck with amount of development in Southend (I was well aware of mass developments in Uptown). I think that's what the LRT could do for the Triangle, stimulate and densify growth along the proposed corridors.

[Durhamite]

To be fair, a huge amount of that development you are referring to in Southend was generated in the almost 10 years the Trolley operated there. (the claim is that it was 1/2 Billion worth) At $40M the trolley was a much less expensive system but did not have the reach nor capacity of the current Lynx system. It's not entirely clear how much of this development would occurred anyway since there is a lot of development around downtown which is not on the transit line.

[ncwebguy]

The trolley in Charlotte was part novelty, part proof of concept for transit, but not mass transit in itself. The route was short and joggers/bicyclists could make better time than trolley riders.

Dilworth developed without being near the trolley. Southend Brewery, Jillians, etc. were initially developed despite the trolley, not because of it. But the bigger projects (especially the Lowes home improvment) were spurred by the approval and buildout of the LYNX blue line.

The Triangle's "hurdles" are that it has no corridor that a starter trolley would demonstrate its viability. A failed trolley would result in no chance of transit for at least 30 years, even with $5/gallon gas. The closest would be Cary/Fairgrounds/NC State/Downtown, but the tracks get the cold shoulder through most of that stretch.

The problem with the "middle link" of the initial TTA backbone is that taking transit to the airport saves parking money, but taking transit anywhere in RTP does not. Since the FTA's models look at how things are now and make assumptions of ridership consisting primarily of rush hour and little else, new starts have no chance. But Charlotte is showing what we already know on here -- that people *will* ride the train from downtown to the burbs to shop and/or catch a movie, even though the end station was built as a park and ride for commuters from points south.

Finding the equivalent of that in the Triangle is the big issue the commission needs to answer to sell it to politicians and business interests. The RTP circulator, while not as useful/sexy as the other potential transit components, get Cisco, Network Appliance, EPA, Lenovo and other employers in the park advocating for transit. Also, IBM needs to be re-courted since the land they were donating for its stop appears to now out of the (initial) loop.

[orulz]

I have deleted some posts in this thread about the history of sales taxes in Mecklenburg County which is off-topic. Suffice it to say that sales taxes in NC are confusing.

I did some quick research and here are the facts as I understand them:

• The "base" state sales tax is presently 4.25% (this will increase to 4.5% in Oct 2008 and 4.75% in Oct 2009.)

• Over the years, the legislature authorized local sales taxes that apply counties in NC. As of 1971, those local taxes add up to 2.5%.

• In 1997, the legislature authorized an additional 1/2% sales tax in Mecklenburg County only, for the purpose of transit. This then went to a referrendum and was approved in 1998.

• Last year, the legislature authorized an additional 1/4% 'option' sales tax that can be approved by the counties without any additional legislation. I am not sure what counties are levying this tax at the moment.

• What is apparently on the table now for the Triangle is a 1/2% sales tax similar to Mecklenburg, that would have to first be authorized by the legislature.

[monsoon]

The trolley in Charlotte was part novelty, part proof of concept for transit, but not mass transit in itself. The route was short and joggers/bicyclists could make better time than trolley riders.

Dilworth developed without being near the trolley. Southend Brewery, Jillians, etc. were initially developed despite the trolley, not because of it. But the bigger projects (especially the Lowes home improvment) were spurred by the approval and buildout of the LYNX blue line.....

[ChiefJoJo]

Those trolley cars move at 30mph, quite a bit faster than a jogger or a bike. I did a series here a few years ago before Lynx was approved that discussed the trolley's effect on the area. I do agree that it isn't effective mass transit, but it did provide an alternative travel method especially for restaurants and shopping that you mentioned, and people did want to live by it. The Sierra Club, BTW picked up one of my photos from that series and used it in their magazine where they discussed Southend's revival.

However, as I mentioned earlier, it's not clear to me how much of this investment however would not have occurred anyway given this area's proximity to downtown. More telling is that so far, south of South End, there has been almost no new development announced around the Lynx transit stations, and the city had to actually add incentives to for developers to come in and develop land that it bought for the purpose. Time will tell I guess, but I am not sure the LRT is being used for much more than for people to avoid expensive downtown parking (because all the Park & Ride lots are free) and as a conduit for bus riders looking to get to the Charlotte bus station downtown. The bus riders thing is happening because they change the bus routes to drop people off at the Park & Ride lots and then from there they have to ride the LRT to get another xfer to an outgoing bus. Lowes BTW was in the works for a long time, and I doubt that many people will be dragging their home improvement projects onto the train.

The point of all of this of course is that it is not a forgone conclusion that development will come because a train line is built. So care should be taken not to make promises for it that won't be realized and certainly financing that would depend on it. (TIFs for example)

[vitaviatic]

John Lassiter, a member of Charlotte's city council, said local Democrats, Republicans and corporate chiefs agreed that taxpayer investment in public transit is good for economic development, good for business and, therefore, good for Charlotte..."Republicans that are elected here, and I'm one of them, are much more progressive in their philosophy about infrastructure and economic development," Lassiter told his Wake County audience, "than perhaps some of the folks that serve your community -- who are more ideological."

[monsoon]

^That is one of the best points that I have seen about RTP. If you are going to send transit there, then you will need fundamentally change RTP so that real towns can be built there in order to take advantage of it.

On the other hand, why do this? The counter to the above would be to accept the fact that RTP is of by and for the automobile, and there isn't any reason nor inclination to change this. Future businesses and commuters will have to decide if they wish to continue to support the place. IBM for example has something like 1/2 it's workforce in mobile and home offices. And technology is going to continue to enable this trend to continue. The demand may never be there to warrant rail transit to RTP and the idea that we would build towns out in far flung locations would not seem to be a good idea.

So instead of building a commuter rail system such as the original TTA proposal, the other way to go about it is to change the paradigm to one where density and walkable neighborhoods are built IN Raleigh and supported by Light Rail transit such as what was done in Charlotte. Let's use transit to improve the cities we have now instead of building new ones. From a macro point of view, one would remove all the tax advantages for a business to be in RTP and take that money and use it towards improving the cities including building more transit.

I would not characterize Light Rail as a niche product, BTW.

[ChiefJoJo]

It's good to see some (at least vocal) headway being made in the press front, even if it's for a reason as pathetic as the aforementioned "Charlotte-envy". Charlotte deserves all the credit in the world for bucking the regional bias against transit as some alien "Adlanna thang". However I still have my already mentioned concern about the "Charlotte-envy" going a lot too far, to the point of completely apeing what they have done. In particular, I get a little nervous when I hear a lot of fawning over LRT as a cure-all.

At 9+ miles, LRT works in Charlotte. At 13 miles LRT works here in Denver, but with some wicked downtown parking economics at play. At 23+ miles, LRT will not work that well for what the Triangle needs. LRT is essentially a city bus on tracks, as many of you who have had transit adventures in other cities know. Designed the right way, it is way faster than a bus. It is more comfortable, has more room and capacity than a bus. The ecoutrements, such as climate control are more dependable than a bus. But the differences between LRT and buses stop there. For larger distances, you need a better, more comfortable transit product. That product is commuter rail.

Despite having plenty of talent onboard, managerially TTA did plenty of things wrong. Their marketing of the concept to the public sucked. Their lack of discipline as to the focus of the mission was tragic. But one thing they had right all along was their focus on commuter rail. By the time you throw 10 intermediate stations between DTR & DTD (all of which are needed), you are looking at a 45-minute trip between those two points. A 45-minute transit trip w/o a restroom, a snack bar, and a comfortable, airline-style seat is a "NO SALE" to me. I, like many of you, am a diehard transit supporter and user, but I wouldn't ride an LRT on that trip. I've been in an LRT seat for 25 miles. You're standing up for the last half of the trip, wishing to God it was over already. By contrast, I've happily sat in Pacific Surfliner, Capitol Corridor, and Metrolink trains for 80 miles and up, working on my laptop on the folddown seatback tray, and walking over to the toilet when I needed to, bought a soda when I wanted to. BIG friggin' difference! Put WiFi on it, and you've got, IMHO, a superior product to an automobile trip. Notice that Charlotte isn't planning LRT on its Lake Norman trains. Commuter rail, baby!

So what if the original TTA plan failed? Who cares? It doesn't mean that the concept was a failure. TTA's primary job, other than negotiating with NCRR to get a viable system on the table, is to market the concept to the public. Once the public is educated about what they are actually getting, none of that history will matter. LRT may be fine for a Seaboard/Wake Forest line as far as service time & distance goes, but it won't be as cheap as DMU to start. LRT is a niche product, as is any type of mass transit. I just don't seeing the Triangle as a whole incorporating LRT the same way as Charlotte did as a municipal -- as opposed to metropolitan -- service.

[monsoon]

.....

Here's why: The Research Triangle Foundation (RTF) STAC-member stated very clearly in a recent meeting that that RTP would not support any regional plan without serving RTP, and presumably, that meant both regional service and local circulator-type service. ....

[ChiefJoJo]

Exactly what would the loss of RTF support mean?

[DwnTwnRaleighGuy]

Please forgive me if this is old news. But I just read in the TBJ that the State Transportation Dept has a sub-committee looking at the possibly of setting up a "Transit Trust Fund", similar to the NC Highway Trust Fund. This would possibly be set up to provide funds for rail, buses, trollys, and maybe greenways and bike paths? Interesting...

[Gard]

Please forgive me if this is old news. But I just read in the TBJ that the State Transportation Dept has a sub-committee looking at the possibly of setting up a "Transit Trust Fund", similar to the NC Highway Trust Fund. This would possibly be set up to provide funds for rail, buses, trollys, and maybe greenways and bike paths? Interesting...

[ChiefJoJo]

FYI, WRAL has a program focusing on Triangle transit airing Sat at 7pm.

Apparently, even Phillip Isley will support a half-cent tax now:

Philip Isley, the only Republican on the Raleigh City Council, said today that he could support a half-cent tax increase for transit if the right transit plan were developed and sold properly to voters.

There seems to be some good momentum building here for getting this going...

[monsoon]

Clearly it would mean (1) no consensus on a regional transit plan--which was a stated goal of the STAC process--and (2) a major loss of support of the business community in the region. ...

[JDC]

I can see where both ChiefJoJo and Monsoon are coming from. Why put effort into serving the least walkable place on earth with transit when we could focus on the already-urban districts like DTR, DTD, NC State, even "downtown" Cary? My gut reaction is to reject the idea of RTP or any similar office or industrial "park." If Glaxo and IBM want transit, move the operation to a city - not a sprawling campus.

But on the other hand, we could just drop a station in the middle of RTP somewhere and hope for the best. If TOD starts popping up around the station and there's demand for land near the station, then great. And if not, at least we got RTF's support and got a system running.

I've been doing some doodling on Google Earth and the tracks are in place between Duke/9th Street in Durham and the Progress Energy Center in Raleigh. I think vitaviatic was right on in a previous post: let's pony up the cash for a couple of DMUs, the proper signaling, a few basic platforms and a maintenance facility and SHOW - not tell - the powers that be that transit can work in the Triangle. Surely someone makes a DMU with more comfortable seats than what's on LYNX (not that I am of the opinion that's even necessary).

That's a shocker that even Isley is interested in transit. Wasn't he the guy demanding Raleigh gets its money back from TTA so they could build more roads?

[orulz]

But on the other hand, we could just drop a station in the middle of RTP somewhere and hope for the best. If TOD starts popping up around the station and there's demand for land near the station, then great. And if not, at least we got RTF's support and got a system running.

[Jones_]

Novice transit person here, but I wonder if dropping that station in RTP, and then telling the employers, ok its here, now you send shuttles out to pick up your employees, would be viable? RTP created most of this mess and seems to contribute little, directly anyway, to resolve problems. What would be wrong with RTP funding its own circulator or spoke and wheel system attached to the TTA station? Does not some of the talk already involve existing "circulator" systems (DATA, CAT) reconfiguring around the stations? Should we all be wiping RTP's butt forever, or should it be potty trained?