Triangle Regional Transit

[Jones_]

Can anyone give me an update on the TTA, I'm not local and I seem to find different feedback as to the reality/timing of the project depending on where I search....

Are stations scheduled to be open as early as 08? If so where? Any feedback is appreciated

[monsoon]

^Indeed. This topic was started in 2004 when they still had an active plan to put the commuter rail line through the triangle. I recommend a read through it and you will get a pretty good synopsis of what happened to derail the plan. I suppose at some point we ought to archive this topic and start a new one on the future of transit in the Triangle.

[Gard]

^Indeed. This topic was started in 2004 when they still had an active plan to put the commuter rail line through the triangle. I recommend a read through it and you will get a pretty good synopsis of what happened to derail the plan. I suppose at some point we ought to archive this topic and start a new one on the future of transit in the Triangle.

[mattm]

Oh, I dunno... "Triangle Regional Transit" is a pretty timeless title. I could see it splitting into different forums once the individual projects start to take shape, though, like they have in the Charlotte forums.

[ChiefJoJo]

The nutshell really is that the old plan had stations opening in '08. There were station plans online and almost 100% of row had been acquired...all that was need was the Federal buy in which did not happen. Supposedly ridership projections could not be substantiated in a way the FTA was happy with. So now the TTA is moving forward with new conceptial idea but now funding method in place.

Those better suited, please fill in details.....Jojo, Vitiviatic, Transitman......

[gregflynn]

I am one of the STAC members. I've been lurking. The STAC process has been slow going, wading chest high in data, while wrestling with corridor anacondas, land use, jurisdictions, restrictions, economics and transit modes. It will not be done by the end of October. Two more meetings have been added to the schedule: November 15 and December 4.

[mattm]

There's several of us STAC members active on here. We probably should watch ourselves so we don't run afoul of the public meeting laws.

[monsoon]

I am one of the STAC members. I've been lurking. The STAC process has been slow going, wading chest high in data, while wrestling with corridor anacondas, land use, jurisdictions, restrictions, economics and transit modes. It will not be done by the end of October. Two more meetings have been added to the schedule: November 15 and December 4.

[orulz]

A lot of these studies may have been required by the FTA new starts process. There is a drawn-out process that must be followed in order to qualify for New Starts funds.

By forgoing New Starts this time, some of this "red tape" can hopefully be eliminated.

[ChiefJoJo]

Isn't this what killed the first plan? Endless meetings, studies, etc that ran from 1994 to 2006 where time finally ran out? If they had managed to stay on a reasonable schedule and get the thing going around 2000 as originally envisioned I suspect they might have gotten the funding to build the original commuter line. It seems to me that constant studies instead of taking some kind of visible action is one of the factors that cause the public to lose interest in the first place and hence the political will to fight for the money went with it.

[gregflynn]

This just came in my email:

NORTH CAROLINA RAILROAD COMPANY

NEWS RELEASE

October 30, 2007 Contact: Kat Christian

Public Affairs Director, North Carolina Railroad Company

(919) 954-7601 Ext. 230

NORTH CAROLINA RAILROAD TO STUDY COSTS TO ADD TRACKS BETWEEN

GOLDSBORO AND GREENSBORO FOR COMMUTER SERVICE

RALEIGH, NC

[orulz]

Sounds great... this seems to dovetail with the STAC plan for commuter rail through the region. 4 trains in the AM, 1 train midday, and 4 trains in the PM is a far cry from rush hour departures every 15 minutes that TTA was planning, but it's a start. Anybody care to speculate where the stations would fall? I think it's a safe bet that some of the locations in the TTA plan will be dropped, but every 5-7 miles even through the heart of the Triangle would probably not be enough.

The article also indicates that this go together with PART's plans between Greensboro and W-S as well. That would be 9 trains a day between, say, Hanes Mall in Winston-Salem and downtown Goldsboro. Sounds more like an intercity corridor than a commuter line to me, but what's in a name?

[mattm]

A quick peek at the track map shows the following points through the triangle region:

MP 53.6 TTA 9th St. station

MP 54.7 Durham station

MP 62.4 TTA N. RTP station

MP 64.1 TTA S. RTP station

MP 70.7 TTA W. Cary station

MP 72.5 Cary station

MP 77.1 TTA Fairgrounds station

MP 81.2 Raleigh station

Obviously they won't want to stop at all those points, but just as obviously they should take advantage of the design work TTA did and make use of some of them. The fairgrounds and one of the RTP stations would be good candidates. Of course I would expect them to also stop at all the existing Amtrak stations. For that matter the Piedmont, Carolinian, and upcoming mid-day train are probably already included in those 9 trains in their thinking.

[ChiefJoJo]

Interesting on the NCRR plans... whether we start with intercity commuter rail type option or not, I still think a more frequent service model with DMUs will have to be the next logical step. With the existing dbl-tracked NCRR, the future TTA lines (dbl-tracked) and high-speed rail, I am not seeing how everything will fit... I assume we are talking initially 2 shared tracks for freight + comm rail, plus 2 more tracks for TTA DMUs? I would think that TTA DMUs would require exclusive use of their own tracks for that level of service. If HSR were added, are we talking about 6 tracks?

Here's a diagram from the old N&O story showing how TTA's track might relate to existing tracks and future HSR tracks that would need to be straightened out for higher running speeds:

[orulz]

I've kind of got the impression that the four-track solution with two freight/passenger, and two DMU tracks, separated from each other, is off the table for good. Rather, capacity will be added to the existing NCRR where needed to accomodate additional trains. All trains will operate in "mixed" traffic. I see no reason why this could not be scaled much higher than 9 trains per day.

The 9 trains per day solution may result in (for example) double-tracking the entire corridor between Raleigh and Durham, and perhaps some new sidings between Cary Raleigh. If frequency is increased and more trains are added, then add more track to the existing corridor to accomodate. Not only does that lessen the initial capital outlay, but it might help to overcome some railroad opposition too. When the plan was to go from zero to 15 minute headways in one fell swoop, the railroad objected, resulting in the 26-foot separation requirement. But with incremental increases to frequency and capacity, perhaps the railroad would go along with it. (The proverbial boiling frog.)

[mattm]

I think we're talking just the existing one track plus more sidings for commuter rail. I'm not sure if these 4 AM and PM trains are in each direction, or sum total. Best case: 4 each way over a 3 hour stretch means a train each way every hour, so you need 1/2 hour between your sidings to handle meets. With max 79mph speed and 1 minute stops every 5-7 miles, you're probably talking about short sidings (at a minimum) every 20-25 miles down the track. We've already got one nice bit of double track, soon to be double main (meaning each track can handle traffic in either direction), plus several nice 2 mile sidings with full signalling and power switches on this stretch. There's a detailed map on the NCDOT website at http://www.bytrain.org/track/ As it is, the existing incremental improvements have made for tremendous on-time improvements for the Piedmont (as documented by transitman).

Interesting item about the spacing required. Big issue for freight rail not mentioned is that placing the Regional Rail tracks along one side cuts off potential customers. New customers come pretty rarely anymore so I can see them being worried about losing some. The Original, Way-Back-When plan not only placed the TTA tracks 15 feet over but actually proposed taking over some of the track already there! NCRR would have been cut down to one track between Cary and Raleigh. Needless to say this didn't go over too well once the plan tried to get out of the conceptual stage, but it does have a lot to do with the initial bump from a $100M project to a $400M one.

High speed rail is probably less of an issue now. Despite efforts for quite some time showing that a fast rail connection from Charlotte to Washington would be viable, no money has ever been forthcoming from the feds. I think they've backed off from proposing 110mph speed in this corridor now because of conflicts like this. As it is those few extra mph come at ever increasing cost. Costs are raised an entire order of magnitude going from 110 to 125, e.g., and certainly don't buy you any big increase in ridership. Going from 90 to 110 causes you to build a dedicated passenger track because freight refuses to run on Class VI track.

(Edited after seeing orulz): At some point the Regional Rail tracks are going to have to be put in. The long-term goal coming out of STAC is not just this rush-hour commuter line, but several other commuter lines feeding in, plus additional capacity needed as well. We ARE going to need dedicated track for that 10-minute headway on at least part of this stretch. However, we might be more willing to come up with the cash for it after this basic commuter rail becomes a stunning success.

[ChiefJoJo]

Bob Geary reports on the STAC meeting yesterday:

Apparently, there was a lot of discussion of the "linchpin" corridor--TTA Phase 1-- and whether it should be bus or rail... what should go first, and how all of it should be paid for.

I've probably written this a dozen times, but I think in the short term, the best approach is to continue operating the express buses on I-40 and try to move forward with a basic AM/PM commuter rail option on existing tracks first... but ultimately, in my opinion, exclusive dbl-tracked rail has to be the choice. I think the hybrid option that was shown, looks like a pretty comprehensive plan to cover the region with different mode choices for each corridor. Funding could be a mix of local sales tax, state funds, TOD tax districts, and eventually some federal matching funds.

[ncwebguy]

I am glad STAC has done the work they've done, but it is discouraging that they have only come up with questions, not answers, after six months of meetings, etc. And those questions are virtually the same as those that existed before the study started.

The vote in Charlotte next week will have a big impact on what we can do going forward here. If the transit tax is upheld, it will demonstrate that people are happy with the increased bus service, etc. already provided and are willing to pay for future transit corridors. If the transit tax is repealed, I could see us having to take the "cheap" route and continue with express buses in mixed traffic and *maybe* buses in dedicated right of ways (for part of the route) in a few years.

[Creasy336]

ChiefJoJo, The NCRR will study implementing commuter rail from Greensboro to Goldsboro, with 4 morning trains, 1 mid day train, and 4 Evening trains. Unless these trains go opposite directions during rush hour, how is this effective commuter rail? What I mean is if 4 trains depart Greensboro in the morning Raleigh bound once the trains go past Goldsboro the train losses most purpose while Goldsboro and Raleigh commuters can't access RTP.

[mattm]

I don't think that's totally fair. Yes, those questions were there to start with, but the group wasn't necessarily in tune with all of them at the beginning. At this point we don't have just questions; we have a pretty good idea of what we want transit to look like in 25 years. There's still some big decisions to make about which approach/technology should be taken, and about whose piece gets built first/is the most important, but the broad picture is coming into focus quite nicely.

No doubt that next week's vote is crucial. Defeat of the transit tax will set back not just Charlotte, but the whole Southeast, and probably for decades. We'll all be living with minimal transit service except for a few privileged places. Even a handful of express buses will be a stretch to implement, let alone any busways, even. Look at all the trouble we have even addressing major highway bottlenecks or bridge maintenance.

[mattm]

ChiefJoJo, The NCRR will study implementing commuter rail from Greensboro to Goldsboro, with 4 morning trains, 1 mid day train, and 4 Evening trains. Unless these trains go opposite directions during rush hour, how is this effective commuter rail? What I mean is if 4 trains depart Greensboro in the morning Raleigh bound once the trains go past Goldsboro the train losses most purpose while Goldsboro and Raleigh commuters can't access RTP.

[Gard]

Good article in today's N&O on the comission studying the proposed TTA transit plans and choosing one by Feb: http://www.newsobserver.com/news/growth/story/763484.html

[vitaviatic]

Guarded applause for NCRR's initiative to study commuter rail for the Piedmont. I can understand the exasperation of many here, since in government the equation is pretty much "study=kill". Understand though that this is a private entity taking on the studies, so someone must have seen potential dollar signs in it somewhere, from whatever direction.

I think the idea is to originate the trains from Burlington and Goldsboro towards both Greensboro and Raleigh/RTP. They wouldn't stop in the middle but continue on so they could serve destinations throughout their target region. In the evening they would return. Especially with the Durham/RTP/Raleigh area, the trains from Burlington and Goldsboro would have to pass by each other in the middle someplace. There's something like 15 miles of double track already built in that stretch, with another 2 mile siding about to be built. The commuter study will evaluate whether that's enough, plus how much equipment is needed.

[mattm]

The TTA Regional Rail service facility was planned for north RTP, between Alexander Dr and Ellis Rd (I think that's the next road up). That factors into this conveniently -- the regional rail features could be partially implemented (station parking lots, service facility, dmu's in particular) in the commuter service. If Regional Rail ever comes to pass at a later date the amount of stuff to build would be less (track, bridges, platforms).

I haven't thought about the dispatching details too deeply so far. I used to own a program that could be used for those purposes () but have long since lost the password in order to run it in various head crashes over the years. Off the top of my head your station stops look a bit long for a commuter operation though.

[vitaviatic]

If the NCRR commuter operation could co-op the maintenance facilities with TTA that would be a money-saver on both sides.

Indeed the station dwell times in my example schedule are long, but that is just my way of padding the schedule for ADA events (which will often take 5 minutes or more). To be sure, there is some slop in this schedule, and as I don't know what the track speeds are, I have to depend on an undependable average speed which I have no doubt would be somewhat off. The only dwell times that aren't so padded are at the turnaround points, where 5 minutes would be pushing it. To reconfigure a push-pull consist, for an engineer to climb down from or onto a Genesis unit, maybe use the restroom, and walk to the other end and cut-in, that's a very small span of time. If DMUs are in play, it's a little simpler, but still somewhat time-consuming.

My chief worry about the through-train operation is that with too many counter-traffic trip miles and minutes, that there will be a lot of empty seats, and will set a bad precedent for future rail projects from underperformance. 130 miles is a tough service area to pull off for an operation in the "commuter" classification. The "Capitol Corridor" does it between Sacramento and the South Bay Area, but they have a lot more trains to play with, and virtually all multiple mainline all the way to Oakland. It isn't without its problems, but it's a good template for NCRR.

Anyway, glad to hear of the progress afoot.