Triangle Regional Transit

[monsoon]

....Surely someone makes a DMU with more comfortable seats than what's on LYNX (not that I am of the opinion that's even necessary). ....

[ChiefJoJo]

This makes no sense and/or it is a broken goal UNLESS these companies are putting up considerable funds to build this system. If not, then they really should not have any say in what will happen. From what I can tell, there is no money on the table from the RTF, so why bother with them? What exactly am I missing here?

I would say that a regional transit system is a bit like putting the cart before the horse. The last one didn't work and I doubt they can get another rail based system off the ground. What needs to happen is that Raleigh, the only other city in the Carolinas with the resources at this time to build a system on it's own, should focus on building a train within the city with the stated goals of improving density without increasing car traffic. This will also have the effect of improving desirability of in town living and might help to curb some of the suburban sprawl.

BTW, the regional model has failed in Charlotte as the surrounding towns and counties have bailed from the plan (for the most part) and the Charlotte is now mainly focused on extending LRT within the city, rather than building a regional transit system.

[monsoon]

..... Clearly, Charlotte got it right as the business community was behind building a transit system from the start, and they didn't put up any money to fund the system as you are claiming is a prerequisite (besides the goldrush service). Without widespread business community support, the GOP would never have supported such a plan in Charlotte, and that certainly would not happen in Wake.

[ChiefJoJo]

We'll likely hear more details on this tomorrow, but the STAC has apparently forged a consensus plan today for 2020 regional transit priorities, including LRT from Chapel Hill to Durham, DMU rail from Durham to Cary, and DMU rail from Cary to DT Raleigh to NE Raleigh, not to mention a major expansion (+120) of buses to the regional system. The cost of just the rail projects is about $2B plus bus purchases and operating funds. They recommend levying a 1/2 cent local sales tax, and a $10 vehicle registration fee, supplemented by 25% state and 25% federal matching funds in order to pay for the system.

[Atlside]

We'll likely hear more details on this tomorrow, but the STAC has apparently forged a consensus plan today for 2020 regional transit priorities, including LRT from Chapel Hill to Durham, DMU rail from Durham to Cary, and DMU rail from Cary to DT Raleigh to NE Raleigh, not to mention a major expansion (+120) of buses to the regional system. The cost of just the rail projects is about $2B plus bus purchases and operating funds. They recommend levying a 1/2 cent local sales tax, and a $10 vehicle registration fee, supplemented by 25% state and 25% federal matching funds in order to pay for the system.

[monsoon]

....Why didn't they ask for a transit tax back in the 1990s when they were planning this rapid rail system?

[RiverwoodCLT]

Uptown business put up most of the money for this Trade Street station. CATS did not have the money to build this cover and business step up. I think the business in the RTP have plenty of money to come up with a transit stop and feed for the business in the park.

[DwnTwnRaleighGuy]

I am so excited, I can't wait to see the new Inter-model building/complex for downtown Raleigh at the Wye area/Warehouse District! As I remember, TTA wanted to build part of it underground? But they had a cost problem? Maybe business/Cherokee Partners could help off set the cost? We need to do it right the first time...IMHO!

[monsoon]

^Let's tell the whole story. CATS did have enough money to build that station, and had to cut out the cover over the station when news came out they had wasted $100M due to incompetence, mismanagement, and bad contractors (namely Parsons). So after it was cut, then businesses did donate enough money to build the cover. ($1M). CATS paid for the rest of the station.

[ChiefJoJo]

Let's keep this on topic please.

Back to the Triangle: WRAL: transit system inches closer to reality.

[Rascal]

So to that point the Charlotte mayor and Lassiter were being disingenuous in their claims about GOP support for transit when STAC visited. They don't have any skin in the game because what is missed here is that the transit tax is a county tax and neither the Mayor nor Lassitor, nor any other GOP member of the Charlotte city council had anything to do with the creation of the tax. It is the county government that did that and that government is almost always controlled by the Democrats.

[Gard]

Big article this morning on TTA Rail plans in the N&O: http://www.newsobserver.com/news/growth/story/923907.html

[monsoon]

^Granted this is coming from a 2nd source but what caught my eye is the sentence that service (the rail part presumably) would not be planned to start until 2020. If is indeed the case then it's very difficult to be excited about it as no doubt these plans will never survive until that time.

[orulz]

I think the article is saying that "These are the 3 lines we want to have operational by 2020." So presumably, the lines will come online, one at a time, at some point between now and 2020.

[ncwebguy]

The problem is that running trains through Research Triangle Park would be useless without a comprehensive plan for the land on/near the corridor *and* buy in from the business community/Research Triangle Foundation.

In February 2008, 50 years after its creation, RTP has more land than it knows what to do with. IBM is a perfect example, in that manufacturing/reconditioning was on site, then moved out, followed by phone support call centers, which in turn were shipped out elsewhere. But they still have thousands of people commute to their campus every day, most of them via single occupant passenger vehicle. This in turn removes any incentive to take mass transit, as transportation costs are only related to the vehicle and its opertation, with parking being "free."

The oceans of parking in RTP office complexes is the high cost of free parking. It is a problem (monsoon's argument), but it can be corrected (CheifJoJo, orulz, others' arguments). A lot of potentially urban land has been paved over and turned into suburban parking lots in the name of security and competition. Companies can still have their secured campus *and* make money by selling off or developing the excess land for development. Durham county should be encouraging this, as it has the potential to increase its propety tax base.

As the "campus" office model is phased out, RTP land near the transit centersr could be converted to dense TOD cores, similar to "train stop" towns like Garner, Clayton, Smithfield, Hillsborough, etc. This would be smart growth to slow (and eventually contain/reverse) the sprawl spreading to Franklin, Nash, Johnston, Chatam, and Allamance counties. Companies benefit by having happy workers with shorter commute times *and* have to provide fewer parking spaces on their land. Triangle Metro Center could have been the first core and model for others to follow, but has been reduced to suburban development that will need to be retrofitted if/when a train comes online.

At the RTP stations, the train backbone can hand passengers off to the employers (and eventually residents going shopping or home). I like the idea of a circulator, like vitaviatic's Clarian Health example. However, in the early stages, I could see a hub/spoke system.

For years, RTP employers have been served by TTA's shuttles, but maybe they need to start paying their way and provide for their own, a la the rental car shuttles at the airport. Several lots are next to each other at RDU airport between the terminals, yet they don't share and provide their own transportation from terminal to rental car office.Plus this would be a marketing opportunity for the employers -- a Big Blue van/bus for IBM, a white and green hybrid/experimental technology for the EPA, a red letters on white for Cisco Systems, etc. Smaller employers and/or landlords could combine resources to flesh out a shuttle system similar to the one already in place. Corporate shuttles would remove some of the "stigma" attached to public transportation. Though transplants from other urban areas don't carry that baggage.

It is good to see the STAC has vetted through various options in routes, technologies, etc. and has a plan that comes together as one network, instead of dysfunctional parts with a lot of unnecessary duplication.

[monsoon]

....

It is good to see the STAC has vetted through various options in routes, technologies, etc. and has a plan that comes together as one network, instead of dysfunctional parts with a lot of unnecessary duplication.

[DanRNC]

I kind of feel that this plan is self-destructive in that the time line is so long and the cost is so high. Joe Bryan is already complaining that this plan takes money away from schools even though he tried his hardest to kill the school bonds.

[ncwebguy]

Is this suburban planet, where we don't have the power to change anything? A bizarro world, where costs double and population stays unchanged? Where we should not do anything, ever, since it costs too much, and there is a perfectly good freeway nearby with plenty of capacity at 3 am that no one is using? Should mass transit just be one bus-centric leap of faith where buses never break down, don't get stuck in traffic, and won't have routes shift with changes in wind direction and moon phases?

Since we are not expecting highway funds for several years in the near future, we shouldn't expect any mass transit dollars, either? We shouldn't see if this is what citizens want? A dollar spent planning for the future is obviously a dollar wasted. Even talking about it here is a waste of time, so that should stop too.

From the article:

* Build an electric-powered light rail line from UNC Hospitals in Chapel Hill to downtown Durham. The proposed 16-mile rail has an estimated cost of $739.4 million in 2007 dollars.

[orulz]

I think monsoon is talking about how the total expenditure in Durham and Orange county (15/501 corridor, plus the western portion of the regional rail corridor) will be more than half of the total expenditure on rail transit. That is disproportionate to the population. Durham + Orange = ~400,000 people, while Wake = ~800,000. As a resident of Wake County, I personally don't care; however, I can see how this could become a sticking point.

I suspect we haven't heard the whole story; things may change significantly when more details are released on the plans for circulators.

[Atlside]

They did seek and received approval for a rental car transit tax but it did not generate enough revenue. At the time it was assumed they would receive significant federal funding that quickly dried up after the Bush Administration took over.

[monsoon]

But, they never really committed to it by asking the counties to pay a tax.

[DB78]

I think monsoon is talking about how the total expenditure in Durham and Orange county (15/501 corridor, plus the western portion of the regional rail corridor) will be more than half of the total expenditure on rail transit. That is disproportionate to the population. Durham + Orange = ~400,000 people, while Wake = ~800,000. As a resident of Wake County, I personally don't care; however, I can see how this could become a sticking point.

I suspect we haven't heard the whole story; things may change significantly when more details are released on the plans for circulators.

[ChiefJoJo]

Triangle Metro Center could have been the first core and model for others to follow, but has been reduced to suburban development that will need to be retrofitted if/when a train comes online.

[orulz]

This is taking the talk a little off track but here's a thought of mine: I'm all for a half-cent local tax, but I have a big problem in demanding federal funds. It doesn't seem right to demand that people from other states have to help pay for OUR transit system. Saying "well other cities are doing it" is a statement of lacking principles, IMHO.

[Jones_]

The map with the article showed dates of 2016 for the Cary-Raleigh DMU portion.