Triangle Regional Transit

[Gard]

I also like the idea of the running an all Wake County commuter rail from Wake Forest to Cary.

[ncwebguy]

Maybe the investment in DMU gets applied to a "Wake train" from downtown Wake Forest through downtown Raleigh, NCSU, fairgrounds/RBC park and ride, Cary, and Morrisville (with transfers to RDU Airport and modified RTP shuttle/fixed route hub). This doesn't get all the RTP workers, but does gets a lot of the ones northeast of the park. Since the inital plans 15 years ago, Cary/Apex has, for better or worse, become a bigger "corner" of the Triangle than Chapel Hill/Carboro.

Durham/Chapel Hill can figure out which transit technology makes the most sense for them. BRT's flexibilty seems to be a fit for them, especially Chapel Hill since there are not train tracks in the right corridor.

All this plus NCRR running the Mebane (or further west) to Clayton (or further east) commuter train to help the exurb commuters and spark TOD in places like Clayton, Garner, Hillsborough, Mebane, Burlington, etc.

I was thinking about this last night and hated the lack of unity this creates vs. the initial plan, but then made the same conclusion of ChiefJoJo's point 2 that extending the Wake Train back to DT Durham and Duke campus would be easier once the trains are running *somewhere* in the Triangle.

[urbanvb]

Interesting article from the N&O.

A new half-cent local sales tax could augment local and state transit funds to pay for 150 new buses in the next few years and launch more than $1 billion worth of capital projects by 2020, said David King, general manager of the Triangle Transit Authority

[ChiefJoJo]

Here's another from WRAL.

I attended the later half of the STAC yesterday, and as painful as it is to sit through those meetings, I actually felt better about the group's progress, as finally they seemed to have a collective consensus on the overall (2035) vision/plan for the region, which DOES NOT include curb-guided buses from Durham to Raleigh ( ):

All that is left to do is decide on the first priorities for implementation by 2020, including how much the region can realistically afford. The sense was that a (1) half cent sales tax (producing about $85M/yr) with no federal or state funding assistance is the minimum level of effort that can still achieve some level of implementation of expanded express buses and a rail project or two by 2020. Other funding scenarios include perhaps assuming (2) 25% state funding, (3) 25% federal funding, and (4) some sort of TIF or property tax assessments around TODs. (David King said Cherokee has preliminary estimates showing that the N Raleigh line could be 20% paid for by property assessments around stations.) Certainly, if scenarios 2-4 are assumed, the 2020 plan would be significantly more robust.

For priorities, most everyone agreed a major bus expansion will happen over the next 6-8 years, expanding the TTA fleet by as much as 150-200 buses. On the rapid transit side, most seemed to favor starting on either end with Chapel Hill to Durham (BRT or LRT) and NE Raleigh to Downtown Raleigh or Cary (DMU). My sense it may be possible to build both by 2020 given reasonably conservative funding assumptions. It seems less likely that the group will decide to include Durham to Raleigh DMU rail project in the earlier 2020 plan, but rather plan to build it later. So, to me it's great news that the STAC favors DMU rail for Dur-Ral; it's just been viewed as being a bit lower on the priority list. Several also mentioned the RTP/RDU connector circulator as a regional priority as well (no mention of technology). Again, depending on the financial assumptions, all three corridors--connecting Chapel Hill, Durham, and Raleigh--could be built by 2020.

[vitaviatic]

Both the STAC stuff that Chief posted and the N&O article are so nonsensical on the face of it that I have to believe that there is something else going on.

It does appear that TTA is "punting the ball" on 3rd down with regard to the RDU line. The way in that they propose building the bookends first (essentially the Phase II North Raleigh and Durham/CH lines) makes no sense at all in terms of a comprehensive system without another option in play. As was pointed out, it may have been a placating move. i.e., put something in all parts of the district so that no one feels left out, and to avoid accusations of a "rehash" of the crippled TTA plan. I tend to think there is a handshake deal going on at the NCRR side of things, that they will run the intercity stuff, most likely by contract via Herzog, Bombardier, or some other entity -- and this makes sense, in that, for anywhere from a 25- to 100+ mile corridor of operations, the service level goes way beyond anything that a transit agency can reasonably handle. You will have full-sized train crews, trains with toilets and lounge cars, and other services that are (ostensibly, anyway) more efficiently contracted out to companies that operate at that scale. And if you try to sell a trip that long, even just DTD to DTR as just a seat with no ammenities, you will get few takers. An NCRR/NCDOT/Amtrak partnership is already in place, so that has always been the realistic resolution to me.

What took me rather aback though (and I don't know if this was merely Smedes York being quoted out of context, although I highly doubt Mr. Siceloff would be that sloppy) was the statement that the traffic wasn't there on the RDU line. Maybe I misinterpreted that, but that was just down right weird, given the fact that the entire original TTA plan was predicated on that rail corridor. Man, you talk about giving fodder to the gripers! That statement basically says that, "Hey, our entire prelims were wrong, we were wrong, and everything we've done so far has been, well, inept!" We'd better hope that NCRR gets the commuter train put into place, because otherwise, I don't think it happens at all.

I have no problem with seeing Wake Forest to DTR started first. If that's what the area can afford, then so be it -- anything to get the ball rolling. However, this approach plays into the main problem that has dogged TTA from the start, and that's the balkanized, patchwork way that transit is come by in the Triangle. If you're going to run separate Wake and Durham/Orange operations, then you might be better off deleting TTA altogether, chartering a Bay Area-like "MTC" with oversight, taxing, and pursestring authority, to coordinate the disparate operations into a shared system. I don't really like that approach, but on a quid pro quo basis it would eliminate some of the predictable infighting over tax collections versus service levels.

Simply apeing Charlotte will not work for the Triangle. The Triangle is a polycentric metropolis that needs less concentrated solutions, and that fact, in my mind, actually bodes even more positive for the Triangle, if the transit community there can get out of its own way and stick with something. Busways around I-540, down NC-55, and out around the counties would be fine, but the area needs a spine, and buses are not the solution at all for this. Mark my words.

And finally, to say that RTP isn't transit ready would be accurate only in the context of stasis. Does anybody really think that RTP's core will retain it's bucolic, "campus-like" setting forever. I, for one, do not. It may never be a Pentagon City, but at the same time, the market and land use pressures will dictate that some of those huge tracts will be developed. IBM will probably start releasing some of their land-banked property as soon as their stock or pension fund needs bolstering. It already looks way different than when I was last there. Now, with the land values as high as they are, developers will be obligated to build high-profile, high-density projects just to recover the land-acq costs. RTP, more than anywhere else in the Triangle, needs mass transit to help shape itself for the future.

[DanRNC]

^Perfectly stated. Essentially what this plan boils down to is making a case to buy more buses. The powers that be in the Triangle continue to assume that the only people that use/will use mass transit are people that can't afford to buy cars so they have the "let them eat cake" mentality as efficiency is one of the main points that continues to be left out of these plans.

[ChiefJoJo]

What took me rather aback though (and I don't know if this was merely Smedes York being quoted out of context, although I highly doubt Mr. Siceloff would be that sloppy) was the statement that the traffic wasn't there on the RDU line. Maybe I misinterpreted that, but that was just down right weird, given the fact that the entire original TTA plan was predicated on that rail corridor. Man, you talk about giving fodder to the gripers! That statement basically says that, "Hey, our entire prelims were wrong, we were wrong, and everything we've done so far has been, well, inept!" We'd better hope that NCRR gets the commuter train put into place, because otherwise, I don't think it happens at all.

I have no problem with seeing Wake Forest to DTR started first. If that's what the area can afford, then so be it -- anything to get the ball rolling. However, this approach plays into the main problem that has dogged TTA from the start, and that's the balkanized, patchwork way that transit is come by in the Triangle. If you're going to run separate Wake and Durham/Orange operations, then you might be better off deleting TTA altogether, chartering a Bay Area-like "MTC" with oversight, taxing, and pursestring authority, to coordinate the disparate operations into a shared system. I don't really like that approach, but on a quid pro quo basis it would eliminate some of the predictable infighting over tax collections versus service levels.

[vitaviatic]

As much as I have attacked the notion of regional rail as a failure and 90% of us have defended it, a regional transit plan that isn't preceived as viable will do nobody any good, and if that means going with two separate projects first, than I'm fine with it. At this point, I'm just glad CGBRT is gone and want to see something built and operating ASAP.

[ChiefJoJo]

Geary's take one and take two on the STAC process. He summarizes his thoughts on the same meeting from a week ago that I summarized above.

[ChiefJoJo]

EDIT: It is a bit of a stretch, but if urban development starts here, it could start movement eastward and justify a train stop near Wake Forest/Whittaker Mill/Atlantic Ave. If the first leg (championed by one Smedes York...) goes from downtown to Wake Forest, this could be a potential stop in the middle of a lot of easily-redevlopeable warehouse space! Wow.

[DwnTwnRaleighGuy]

Does anyone know if there is a rail line even remotely close to Crabtree Valley Mall? I think that there would be suffient ridership from say downtown to Crabtree...IMHO! Crabtree could be a great park and ride area as well.

[ChiefJoJo]

Does anyone know if there is a rail line even remotely close to Crabtree Valley Mall? I think that there would be suffient ridership from say downtown to Crabtree...IMHO! Crabtree could be a great park and ride area as well.

[Transplant]

All plans to date have not included mass transit of some sort up Glenwood (US70) from DTR to RTP(/Durham).

I think this is a mistake. There are a lot of aging strip malls which would be ideal candidates for 'North Hills' Style make overs.

Plan for a LR line now while its cheaper and possible!

[orulz]

Actually, all of the plans have included express bus service on Glenwood between Raleigh and Durham.

As much as I'd like to see an LRT line on Glenwood I think the express bus service (perhaps upgraded to BRT at a later date) might be a better / more realistic fit for the corridor.

If it were LRT, I'd rather see it built as Raleigh-Crabtree-RDU-RTP-Chapel Hill, rather than a secondary Raleigh-Durham corridor.

If it were an express bus or BRT, you could pretty easily do both of the above.

Regardless of what form the transit takes, I do think that a line down Glenwood should be prioritized over the rather pointless "RTP circulator".

[DPK]

I think this is a mistake. There are a lot of aging strip malls which would be ideal candidates for 'North Hills' Style make overs.

[ncwebguy]

I think the circulators will help a lot, and could be somewhat easy to set up by enhancing and tweaking existing service.

The east Raleigh circulator could go out to Wake Med via New Bern, but instead of coming back on New Bern/Edenton, could return via Poole/MLK in a clockwise route, or go out MLK and back New Bern/Edenton (counter-clockwise).

The "local" NW Raleigh circulators would have two routes -- Glenwood/Edwards Mill/Blue Ridge/Hillsborough Street and hit a lot of activitiy centers -- NCSU, fairgrounds/RBC, NC Museum of Art, Rex, Crabtree, Five Points, Glenwood South.

A second circulartor could go up wake forest to six forks to north hills to millbrook to glenwood. This would provide a lot of service to the Glenwood corridor, which seems to be a lot of people's top priority. The express bus would have fewer stops along the Glenwood spine, but run faster.

These routes could transfer people to the free downtown circulator at Glenwood/Hillsborough and never have to go into Moore Square or the multi-modal center.

The Capitol Blvd. route could be its own circulator.

All of these could provide park and ride opportunities at the extreme ends of their corridors as well, reducing the number of vehicles in downtown and saving people money on monthly parking space rental.

The RTP circulator would be an enhancment/replacement of the existing shuttle buses.

Once the Raleigh train came on line, the circulators could feed them at a potentinal Wake Forest/Edwards Mill or Wake Forest/Six Forks station, and a circulator/park and ride near the Triangle Town Center/540 area.

[orulz]

I personally think the RTP circulator is fairly pointless. I think that an enhanced shuttle setup would be more efficient at serving the greater RTP area. The only thing of note that the circulator does, is provide a RDU connection that's more than just a shuttle bus - although it would function exactly like one.

The Raleigh circulators on the other hand make a lot of sense. I support them exactly as planned, but I'd like to see two extensions when money is available:

• Hillsborough is Raleigh's most walkable corridor.

• New Bern is the CAT route with the highest ridership.

• Glenwood ties Raleigh's #1 and #2 "nodes" together, downtown and crabtree.

  Personally, I would eliminate the RTP circulator, and instead turn the Glenwood 'circulator' into a second DTR-RTP 'line', by way of Crabtree and RDU.

• The Blue Ridge/Edwards Mill corridor isn't quite as transit-friendly as the others at the moment, but it has potential.

  I'd label it the "midtown" corridor, and eventually extend it as far as North Hills and perhaps all the way to WakeMed.

[vitaviatic]

For what it's worth...

At present, Raleigh in particular has an incredibly monocentric transit structure, which will not serve for an effective expansion, considering that the "hub" of this route system (unchanged in its basic structure for 60 years) is to the extreme southeast of the traffic base.

Generally accepted is the notion that a grid is the most efficient layout for a transit system. Since Raleigh is not laid out that way, some improvisation would be needed to acheive a "grid effect". A diagonalized route structure based in and around rail stations on the NCRR would be very effective at streamlining connections to the west of downtown.

(I had a character graphic to illustrate, but it disassembled itself during the save.)

Buses going around and around, chasing cars on the Beltline and Outer Loop will not serve for much. They need to follow as direct a line as possible, and stay within high density commercial and residential lines to be effective. Unless there is a geographical impediment (also affecting cars) in place, circularized routes tend to be unpopular. Traffic inertia tends to be more or less equal freeway versus street during rush hours, so adding the extra distance for loop routes would be a waste of time for the rider, and a waste of operating funds for the carrier.

[Transplant]

Actually, all of the plans have included express bus service on Glenwood between Raleigh and Durham.

As much as I'd like to see an LRT line on Glenwood I think the express bus service (perhaps upgraded to BRT at a later date) might be a better / more realistic fit for the corridor.

If it were LRT, I'd rather see it built as Raleigh-Crabtree-RDU-RTP-Chapel Hill, rather than a secondary Raleigh-Durham corridor.

If it were an express bus or BRT, you could pretty easily do both of the above.

Regardless of what form the transit takes, I do think that a line down Glenwood should be prioritized over the rather pointless "RTP circulator".

[ChiefJoJo]

A big group of Triangle elected officials and staff made a trip to Charlotte yesterday to ride the Lynx line and talk to CATS officials.

If there is one tidbit to take from this, it's this quote:

"It's very important, also, to gain a cross section of support," Wake County Commissioner Joe Bryan said.

It's fairly clear that a plan will be finalized in February, and at some point soon there will be a push for a referendum on additional funding, probably in the form of a half cent sales tax. As Bob Geary has pointed out in his blog, the #1 road block in a regional sales tax push would be the Wake GOP (Durham and Orange would likely pass easily) and the county commissioners, with point man, our old friend, Paul Coble. Fortunately, Coble and Gurley (former Vice Chair & Chair) are not in a leadership position anymore, replaced by the more moderate Bryan as Chair. I think it's fairly clear that Bryan is a pragmatic leader and is behind the transit effort. Hopefully, he can translate that into widespread support, especially in the GOP. If the broader business community is behind it, then that will help tremendously.

Also, here's a good blog entry on why it makes sense for local areas to self-fund their starter transit lines.

What has time got to do with it? Everything. Because time means political will and citizen backing, time means money and time means solutions. The shorter amount of time that occurs between the start of the idea and operation of the first line, the better off the city is and the more people see tangible results.

Charlotte just opened its first light rail line and used federal funding to build it. The CATS experience serves as a warning to new transit cities who take the network view on transit expansion. When we look back at it now, it does not seem like such a long time, but the 10 years or so it took to build caused a lot of trouble and roadblocks along the way. Charlotte escaped but others have not been so lucky.

Hmm, sound familiar?

[ncwebguy]

The WRAL link wasn't working for me, but I found the story here. It is good to see Joe Bryan involved *before* the STAC releases its report, though this trip was probably scheduled to coinside with it originally... Maybe "Charlotte envy" will get this going, since starting before Charlotte didn't help. It would be interesting to see what Charlotte mayor/gubenatorial candidate Pat McCroy would say about mass transit for the rest of the state.

As for the Capitol Blvd/Wake Forest Road/Atlantic Ave rail staion, I think it made sense to be "either/or" with Highwoods in the TTA's original plan. But in a Cary to downtown to 540/Wake Forest line, there could be justification for *both* stations. Highwoods has a lot of employees, but few residents, and could be a hub to connect to North Hills. Edwards Mill has few residents but a *lot* of potential redevlopment properties. It could operate as a midtown park and ride stop at first and then develop over time.

Federal funding is more trouble than its worth, but it shouldn't be. It is crazy that interstates and loops are held to a completely different set of criteria, but wars and "tax refunds" don't pay for themselves... I do hope that whoever runs against Elizabeth Dole points out her approval of the federal government sending our mass transit *and* highway fund dollars elsewhere through her inactions over the last six years. We should be embarassed that we are a donor state year after year, but I think a lot of people don't even know it is happening.

[ChiefJoJo]

Another bit of good news from the N&O. Interesting that the tone of the N&O artlce tells us a bit more, that the meeting was focused on politics more than a train ride--makes sense. Perhaps I shouldn't have lumped Gurley in with "conservative troll" Paul Coble...

John Lassiter, a member of Charlotte's city council, said local Democrats, Republicans and corporate chiefs agreed that taxpayer investment in public transit is good for economic development, good for business and, therefore, good for Charlotte.

"Republicans that are elected here, and I'm one of them, are much more progressive in their philosophy about infrastructure and economic development," Lassiter told his Wake County audience, "than perhaps some of the folks that serve your community -- who are more ideological."

Lassiter's visitors seemed to get the message.

Wake County Commissioner Tony Gurley, a Raleigh Republican, said he was impressed by $1.8 billion in dense, mixed development that has been built or planned along the Charlotte corridor. The 9.6-mile South Corridor line opened in November.

"That is increasing the tax base," Gurley said in an interview.

...

"I don't expect the transit plan to create a significant reduction in traffic on the roads," Gurley said. "That won't be my only way of judging the quality of the plan.

"A good transit plan will stimulate economic development."

Wake Commissioner Betty Lou Ward, a Raleigh Democrat, said Wake should follow Mecklenburg's lead. If the county receives a good transit proposal, Ward would favor asking voters to approve a local sales tax hike to help pay for it.

It's mind-boggling that it took so long for these folks to 'get the message' but better late than never. Keep in mind, the county would have to approve any ballot measure, so that's at least three votes: Bryan, Gurley, and Ward, and I'm sure Webb would vote for it too.

I wonder if a transit tax vote will be pushed this fall? I think 8-9 months is enough time for the politicos and business community to come together, develop a strategy and take it to the voters successfully. Let's hope... times a wastin'.

[DanRNC]

^Have these bumkins ever traveled anywhere? It took a trip to Charlotte to see mass transit-light rail style. Have they ever been to Europe, Portland, Boston, etc. etc.?

[ncwebguy]

If this gets on this fall's ballot, it will join the vote for govenor, US Senator, *and* president.

Can this be the use for the NC Legislature-allowed half cent sales tax that Wake, Orange, and Durham counties (wisely) didn't put on last fall's ballot?

I hope the STAC report gets this, umm, train moving and that political *and* business leaders are all aboard (it's late friday, so the puns keep coming). My biggest fear is that if this does get on the ballot, the GOP use it as a lightning rod to get out the vote against this and for the Republican slate of candidates. My biggest hope is that the triangle is *finally* ready for this, and we go from talk to action.

I'm hardly well traveled, but have been on the DC, NYC, and London rail systems (above and below ground, except DC). Given the average age of the Wake County board of commissioners, it is scary that they collectively have *not* seen first hand the increased tax base that real mass transit generates.

[Cary NC]

^Have these bumkins ever traveled anywhere? It took a trip to Charlotte to see mass transit-light rail style. Have they ever been to Europe, Portland, Boston, etc. etc.?