Triangle Regional Transit

[DwnTwnRaleighGuy]

Can someone please help remind me where we are now in this process? It is my understanding that the "special transit advisory group" gave there recommendations, (on Feb 29), to the two Triangle Metro Planning Organizations to mull over? How long is this process? Thoughts as to when we might hear more specific numbers, figures, dates? If we need to be pushing our leaders, ( i.e. mayors, council members), then we need a little more to go on. Maybe I am being a bit to overzealous, but I am really getting excited about this project!

[ChiefJoJo]

Yes, even though the STAC recommendations show that the US70 corridor as priority bus, long term Raleigh sees that corridor as another important link to Durham and they see much growth and envision some kind of rail system going in. I remember Mitchell Silver mentioned that it will be part of the transit component of the comp plan when I had a brief meeting with him.

[DPK]

New poll put out by Elon University, covered by N&O and WRAL:

http://www.newsobserver.com/news/story/1003335.html

http://wral.com/traffic/story/2589303

Here's the actual poll data from Elon Poll, since the media don't seem to care:

http://www.elon.edu/level2/images/e-web/elonpoll/031708.pdf

What I find interesting is this...

The poll, released today by Elon University, found 82 percent support for widening roads and improving public transportation to address traffic congestion. Majorities also favored building more roads (72 percent), increasing park-and-ride lots (73 percent) and adding carpool or high occupancy vehicle lanes (52 percent).

[staffer]

New poll put out by Elon University, covered by N&O and WRAL:

http://www.newsobserver.com/news/story/1003335.html

http://wral.com/traffic/story/2589303

Here's the actual poll data from Elon Poll, since the media don't seem to care:

http://www.elon.edu/level2/images/e-web/elonpoll/031708.pdf

What I find interesting is this...

Followed by this...

The money has to come from somewhere. Idiots. You can't have your cake and eat it too. Oh, we want new shiny things, but don't want you to tax/toll us on anything.

* hand to forehead *

[ChiefJoJo]

^ Hmm. It's not surprising that people would reject tax and fee increases off hand, but it is surprising that there is very significant support for mass transit and passenger rail funding stateswide. You can bet if a similar poll were held in just the urban counties (such as Guilford, Forsyth, Wake, Durham, Orange), support would have been even higher. Mecklenburg voted to keep it's 1/2 cent transit tax, by a 70/30 margin. This is ammunition for the Triangle as it moves to seek mass transit funding... and also for the state to expand passenger (high-speed) rail service.

TTA is now rebranded as Triangle Transit. They unveiled the new logo, website, and buses today in an event at Moore Square.

They have lots of good info, including their routes on google maps with street view! Check it out. (They still need to redirect/kill the old webpage though.)

[orulz]

I like the new website quite a bit. They corrected the most annoying issue with their old website, and now the trip planner on the front page automatically defaults to the current time and date. Their current route planning software is OK, but I think I would rather see they (and all the Triangle agencies) switch to Google Transit instead. The interface is slick and much easier to use.

I've heard that the seats on the new buses may be a step down from the old buses. I haven't ridden on one of the new buses yet, so I'll have to wait to see for myself.

[cthayes75]

actually, there was strong support for local taxation:

[DB78]

Previous quoted post deleted

I hear ya cthayes. I haven't looked at the polling questions yet, but you do have a good point about getting a desired result depending on how you word a question. I mean that in a general sense, not specific to this issue. Personally, you pretty much can't find a more economically conservative person than me but I support a 1/2 sales tax increase. The other tax proposals are pretty asinine.

I'm also the person who at one time proposed the NC Constitution needs to change to allow more than the 100 charter school maximum it allows. We have gotten to that 100 maximum. Considering charter schools typically cost about half as much to fund (not to mention better results), the State of NC would save tens of millions of dollars each year, which could be used to do quite a number of things for transit. But I'll stop there before I get in trouble again for bringing this up.

[staffer]

actually, there was strong support for OTHER people raising their taxes. The poll never asked specifically if they would vote to raise their own taxes to pay for these things.

Sure, if people in other counties want to do it, fine. But not in MY county.

It was a horribly worded poll.

[cthayes75]

the reason the poll asked whether people support allowing counties to levy a 1/2% sales tax for public transit, (58.3% support or strongly support) or allowing it only with a referendum, (75.7% support or strongly support) is that those are the policy issues on local taxation before the General Assembly at this time.

[DwnTwnRaleighGuy]

My concern now is that the Wake County Commissioners are considering an increase in the sales tax to help pay for schools. This will certainly make it all but impossible for the Transit group to get a half cent sales tax passed. IMHO!

[orulz]

DwnTwnRaleighGuy, good point.

If the county commissioners push the 1/4 cent sales tax for schools, then it will be much more difficult to pass a transit sales tax on top of that.

The money for school construction SHOULD have been coming from impact fees all along.

[ncwebguy]

There are some parallels between Wake County's school and mass transit needs.

The mid-late 90s through today and beyond population boom was mostly driven by young families moving here due to the lower cost due to low taxes and impact fees yet somehow managed to provide a high quality public school system. These young families had several kids due to lower costs of living, and trailers sprung up on every school campus. Despite all this, a school bond *failed* years ago, because Republican leadership convinced enough voters that we didn't need any more new schools, the school board was greedy/corrupt, and they should work harder and smarter with what they had. The school system has been trying to play catch up ever since. Their solution to do more with what they have -- year-round schooling -- has been unpopular and led to court battles. Now the Republicans want to raise sales taxes to put a band-aid on the problem they created. There was little to no political will to fix the school problem until it was too late.

Transit has had, and continues to have, the same problems. Local conservatives (and Art Pope) told everyone we don't need mass transit -- gas is cheap, we can build all the roads we need (and I-540 was the only road we needed), and cars are sooo much better than the socialism/communism of shared anything. The people who look ahead lost again to the people who look at things right now (or in the past). Now that traffic is getting worse, gas is getting more expensive, and people are slowly realizing sprawling development is not sustainable, we are only now looking for answers. It will cost more tax dollars to do today what should have been started years ago. And the Iraq war has cost us any chance at recooping federal fuel tax dollars for a mass transit system.

The Republicants, who don't want to raise taxes to the necessary level to provide schools or transit, are now making people choose one or the other. Choosing both is somehow not an option, even though it is the best option for the future. The same right-wing conservatives who complained about the *potential* inefficiency, corruption, and political abuse in public schools and transit for decades are only now turning an eye toward the *reality* of inefficiency, corruption, and political abuse in their sacred cow, the toll-free, road/bridge/highway personal transit network.

Other counties might not care, but the General Assembly still has the final say. The GA offered the 1/2 cent sales tax or transfer tax option *because* they know growing areas are going to start needing additional revenue to handle the growth already here and more to come.

The NC Education Lottery raises money for smart start, college scholarships, and schools across the state, not only for the Triangle/Wake County. It replaced the corrupt government actions that led to shady video poker operations. Which of course was spun by the right as government eliminating competition, ignoring the Cherokee Inidan's casino and the lottery dollars that were going into other states' coffers.

[cthayes75]

Other counties might not care, but the General Assembly still has the final say. The GA offered the 1/2 cent sales tax or transfer tax option *because* they know growing areas are going to start needing additional revenue to handle the growth already here and more to come.

[Jones_]

And why shouldn't the League be powerful and be able to look out for its members? Transit, schools, infrastructure of all kinds via whatever palpable form of tax a community votes in is simply necessary to be a society instead of a Libertarian free for all where only the wealthy get an education and can afford gas to get around. The League does a decent job at looking out for lots of peoples interests instead of say your standard Pork or Tobacco Lobbyist. Waiting for the market to dictate everything is reactionary and makes levity of our evolved brains. We can loook, into the fuuuuture, and see that things might be baaad if we don't do something nooow. What your average Libertarian forgets is that individual rights are not a bubble, they overlap...you don't have the right to exist on this planet by yourself...overlapping rights means the cost of certain key things must be born by all, clean water, clean air, an army....this, to most people, would also include transit.

[DwnTwnRaleighGuy]

From what I am now hearing, it sounds as if maybe, just maybe Wake county would do a *full* 1 cent sales tax. With *maybe*half of it going for transit and then half for schools?

Lets say for arguments sake that this were to pass, how would this effect Durham and Orange counties attempt to get a half cent sales tax, so that they could be in line for the transit system?

[ChiefJoJo]

I think a full cent tax would be a policy mistake, and there's a good chance the whole thing would fail. Wake should go with a 0.4% transfer tax and impact fees for schools, and a 0.5% sales tax for transit. Impact fees and land transfer taxes appropriately target much of the growth that generates the need for more schools in the first place. Wake added almost 40k new residents last year alone, so if you sell your house, there's a damn good chance a new resident will buy it and pay the 0.4% fee. The sales tax tends to be regressive, impacting the lowest income populations more directly. But transit tends to benefit these residents more directly by allowing those without cars to increase their travel options, while we build up the market share for choice riders, and build rapid transit corridors. I also think we need to keep the option open to use local taxing districts for the rapid transit station TOD areas to help reduce the general tax burden.

[DwnTwnRaleighGuy]

I think a full cent tax would be a policy mistake, and there's a good chance the whole thing would fail. Wake should go with a 0.4% transfer tax and impact fees for schools, and a 0.5% sales tax for transit. Impact fees and land transfer taxes appropriately target much of the growth that generates the need for more schools in the first place. Wake added almost 40k new residents last year alone, so if you sell your house, there's a damn good chance a new resident will buy it and pay the 0.4% fee. The sales tax tends to be regressive, impacting the lowest income populations more directly. But transit tends to benefit these residents more directly by allowing those without cars to increase their travel options, while we build up the market share for choice riders, and build rapid transit corridors. I also think we need to keep the option open to use local taxing districts for the rapid transit station TOD areas to help reduce the general tax burden.

[Gard]

Article this morning in the N%O on how people are looking for ways to trim their gas budgets for the month. IMO, this is the PERFECT time to promote new mass-transit options and get the supporting taxes on the ballot. The one route for taxes I would be worried about it adding one to anything related to gas or vehicles in general, as people are already trying to cut back in that area and are unlikely to vote for anything increasing them in that regard.

http://www.newsobserver.com/news/growth/tr...ry/1011143.html

[Jones_]

Or propose innovative financing ideas like say $40 a month passes with unlimited ridership. Thats less than a typical monthly gas budget and guarantees chunks of revenue to the Authority. I know revenue is only a part of the equation though. A portion of the increased impact fees should be used for transit absolutely.

[ncwebguy]

TTA's montly passes (also good for CAT and DATA) are currently $64/month, though fares have not changed in three years (March 1, 2005) while gas prices have risen considerably.

I used to buy a six pack of day passes for $20, or buy five get one free. Even though I only transferred from TTA to TTA at the RTP terminal, I didn't have to have the right amount of money, and could just swipe the pass once activiated. It worked out to $3.33/day which is cheaper than 1.5 gallons of gas/round trip (40+ miles) and $3/gallon gas, to say nothing of wear and tear on the car. Living close to Moore Square eliminated a CAT link, but even that wouldn't be too difficult for anyone who can read a bus schedule.

There is an opportunity cost to run errands on the way home that personal transportation provides, but I can adjust accordingly. I'll probably get back on the bus if gas stays at/above record levels.

[CapeFearRiver10]

So are you guys getting the rail or not?

[Gard]

So are you guys getting the rail or not?

[DPK]

Only time will tell. Nothing concrete as of yet.

[staffer]

The draft STAC (Special Transit Advisory Commission) report was released to the public this morning.

Here are additional links to the report and maps, which is broken down for easier downloading.

Executive Summary

Report Sections 2-7 (1mb)

Maps from Executive Summary: Map 1. Regional Transit Vision Plan (2.2mb)

Map 2. Enhanced Local and Regional Bus Service (2.3mb)

Map 3. Recommended Rail Investments (2.1mb)

Appendices: Appendices A-D

Appendices E-J (1.9mb)

There is a blog for STAC members to post threads on and comment by April 4 (this is open to public view under the Public Records Act). The public can comment at http://www.transitblueprint.org/stac/staccomment.shtml

A new draft will be produced after comments are received, to be acted on by the full Commission on April 24.