Triangle Regional Transit

[thewhister]

One thing that is kind of cool is that the Triangle's traffic hasn't gotten too crazy yet. It's getting worse for sure, but it is certainly still tolerable. I believe local and even regional rail demand will be heading to the forefront in coming years and we will stand to benefit from the renewed attention rail will get. Gas prices will continue to rise. I'll bet $3.50 by next summer and over $4 by 2010. Those are conservative estimates. No real signs of slowing down. Given that that's the case, airplane travel is getting lots of deserved bad PR and traffic congestion is grabbing headlines daily across the US, rail in all forms will become a pragmatic option for more people. Even the diehard car enthusiasts. I give it another 4-5 years before you start hearing everyday people start talking about rail and such.

[monsoon]

One more time. This is a topic to discuss the specifics of building a mass transit system in the Triangle Area.

It is not a topic to debate general transportation policy and taxes as we have an entire section on UrbanPlanet devoted to that, and I suggest that you take those arguments there. It's also isn't a topic to qualify your credibility by stating that you are a fiscal conservative whatever that means. Nobody really cares. The reason I am saying this again because because another off-topic post on these lines just appeared less than 12 hours after I asked for this to get back on topic.

To make this easy, and for the purposes of this topic, lets assume there is eventually going to be some sort of commuter rail and/or light rail in the Triangle area, and discussions should be limited to that framework.

[mattm]

I dunno; funding is a huge obstacle to improving mass transit in the Triangle no matter how you slice it. Granted, taxes can make for heated arguments, and there may be general forums for funding discussion, but the Triangle funding issue is certainly important. It really deserves its own place.

[monsoon]

It's ok to discuss how the area might go about funding rail transit in the area. What I don't what to have happen in this thread are whether we should be taxing people to pay for transit and that these taxes would be better spent on something else. There are other topics where that debate can take place.

[DB78]

Ok, I'll let go of the redirecting taxes and energy discussion. I certainly haven't read all 1400+ posts in this thread. What seems to be the overall consensus on how to fund the building of a transit line and then funding it after it is built?

[phoenixnc]

The charter schools is a good idea...

What would be the cost estimates of a functional monorail or subway system (wishful thinking...)

I'm thinking regional hub stops- North Hills, Brier Creek, Triangle Town Center, Crabtree, NC State, Downtown Raleigh, RBC center(maybe), RDU, RTP, some in durham, chapel hill, even cary, apex, fuquay, etc.

The "Subway" could connect to existing rail that could be improved, so we could bring rail to places with no existing rail line. The cars could be like a streetcar style, with power coming from the top, so there would be no need for a "third rail". I am sure this would be at least, or much more than twice or three times the existing rail proposal, but think of how worth it it would be. We could become a extremely well connected area (think DC) and density would be encouraged near stops. I am thinking with enough stops, the amount of cars on the road in the morning and evening could be cut by 25%, maybe up to 1/3 if the stations are placed well with plenty of park and ride and easy bus access.

I know this may sound insane, but the present plans do NOT reach enough people. The triangle needs to reach for the future and even if we want to believe we are still small towns that will stay that way, that is not the case. Our area will have over 2 million people in the not so distant future. Our roads cannot handle that, even with constant widening and highway improvement. With Raleigh doing so many projects downtown, think of it as a regional hub for transportation... Durham as well.

Now the only problem is funding...

First post by the way...

[JDC]

Welcome phoenixnc!

I think the consensus is that commuter-oriented rail is the best fit for the Triangle for many reasons. There are existing rail lines that could potentially be used for a regional commuter rail which could connect to streetcars in denser areas in Durham and Raleigh. The added bonus is that the relative permanence of streetcar lines (compared to buses) in urban areas tends to bring value to adjacent properties, helping revitalize downtowns, etc.

Bringing train service to RTP seems almost pointless. At first it would seem like a no-brainer, since the area employs so many people, but everything is so spread out. Even if trains made multiple stops inside the park, many employees still wouldn't be within walking distance of jobs. They'd have to run buses within the park to shuttle workers from stations to their offices. Who's going to do that when they could drive to work and park only steps from their jobs?

I know Durham once had streetcars that operated in many parts of the city. Anyone know if Raleigh ever had streetcars before?

[monsoon]

Like many cities of 100 years ago there was originally the Raleigh Street Railway. This system was operational at the turn of the 20th century and later was either incorporated or bought by the local power company. (which later became CP&L then Progress Energy). This was very similar to Duke Power and it's operation of street cars in Charlotte.

I saw in the web that like many cities, especially in the South, Raleigh removed the streetcars in the 1930s and replaced them with buses which were concerned more modern fashionable and desirable than the older streetcars.

[ChiefJoJo]

FYI:

The Raleigh Street Railway Company opened the state

[Jones_]

^^ when Fayetteville St Mall was dug up I saw some of the old track still in the ground at Morgan St.

[guy4charlotte]

I saw in the web that like many cities, especially in the South, Raleigh removed the streetcars in the 1930s and replaced them with buses which were concerned more modern fashionable and desirable than the older streetcars.

[pack-man]

it would be great to bring back the old streetcars. ridership would go up compared to buses.

[JeffC]

it would be great to bring back the old streetcars. ridership would go up compared to buses.

[pack-man]

We're all nostalgic for the trolleys, in this era of traffic clogged highways, but it isn't hard to see why they displaced the fixed route trains in the 1930s (and no, I don't believe it was some sinister plot by GM...just good marketing, IMO). Buses could go anywhere, and if you changed a bus route, you didn't have to make a major capital expenditure and dig up the streets. The reason we all feel negatively about buses now is because, with few exceptions, local bus service in this area absolutely stinks.

[JeffC]

whatcha want to bet the Hillsborough tracks are still there, buried under six layers of asphalt? Maybe the Glenwood ones as well? somebody needs to go out in the street with a metal detector....Jones133?

[orulz]

A few reasons streetcars were viewed as inferior to buses even at the time in the 1930s were that:

-Streetcars let people off in the middle of the street, where they had to dodge traffic when they get on or off. Buses could pull straight up to the curb.

-The actual vehicles running in NC were very old and rode terribly and rattled noisily

-The tracks were sometimes maintained to a very low standard

The reason that you argue a bus route is better (you can change it whenever) is both a strength and a weakness. You can change a bus route if travel patterns change but you can't for a streetcar. However, the presence of a streetcar route is a much stronger draw for TOD precisely because the route can't be easily relocated.

Nobody would even try to suggest that many, or even more than a couple, of Raleigh's bus routes need to be replaced by streetcar. Just those lines with higher ridership that serve destinations that aren't going to disappear any time soon.

[Jones_]

whatcha want to bet the Hillsborough tracks are still there, buried under six layers of asphalt? Maybe the Glenwood ones as well? somebody needs to go out in the street with a metal detector....Jones133?

[yfreemark]

Here are the latest STAC Proposals for potential Triangle Transit Service Upgrades, plus, at the bottom, the new look for the TTA, which is being rebranded Triangle Transit (no Authority).

Rail-Only Scenario:

Bus-Only Scenario:

Hybrid Scenario:

TTA's new look:

[DPK]

I like the hybrid scenario. I feel like it makes more efficient use of the available area. One mode of transporation can't do everything in any case.

The new buses look great; better than the current two tone things.

[Gard]

I love the hybrid scenario as well. It seems to be the most realistic and effective of the three. The new buses look great too!

[Rascal]

Is it at all feasible that they would do the rail only scenario? Like they would build rail lines to roxboro and wake forest without first having some kind of bus service to cultivate ridership. No city has rail without buses. I feel like it doesn't take a lot of insight to make these maps- just color in the rail lines and highways. I assume STAC has done more with its time than this, ie getting more detailed than just lines on a map. For example, do they know how rail running down NC 54 would work, where they would fit it into the streetscape, how they would handle crossings, how much land they would have to aquire, etc. I'm excited to see some results from the planning process, but is the pace enough to make anything ever happen?

[Jones_]

In the rail only scenario is that phase I line going up 54 and the phase II parallel to it going up Davis or 55?..I am not familiar with existing rail corridors that far west. Interesting to see such a concentration of facilities in that area...obviously that is where the employment concentration is but that the planners see both lines being needed, i.e., one can't handled projected demand, is quite interesting to me....seems like the standard west Cary and Morrisville subdivision is not dense enough to fill up to lines woth of cars....I like the optimism, but would a new line somehow associated with I-540 get more riders?

[mattm]

Is it at all feasible that they would do the rail only scenario? Like they would build rail lines to roxboro and wake forest without first having some kind of bus service to cultivate ridership. No city has rail without buses. I feel like it doesn't take a lot of insight to make these maps- just color in the rail lines and highways. I assume STAC has done more with its time than this, ie getting more detailed than just lines on a map. For example, do they know how rail running down NC 54 would work, where they would fit it into the streetscape, how they would handle crossings, how much land they would have to aquire, etc. I'm excited to see some results from the planning process, but is the pace enough to make anything ever happen?

[Keo]

Can anyone give me an update on the TTA, I'm not local and I seem to find different feedback as to the reality/timing of the project depending on where I search....

Are stations scheduled to be open as early as 08? If so where? Any feedback is appreciated

[Gard]

Can anyone give me an update on the TTA, I'm not local and I seem to find different feedback as to the reality/timing of the project depending on where I search....

Are stations scheduled to be open as early as 08? If so where? Any feedback is appreciated