Triangle Regional Transit

[orulz]

A commuter line from Triad to Triangle without a larger network of mass transit to move and connect people is a pointless waste of money.

[Creasy336]

Here in Burlington there has been a push to get busses circulating throughout Alamance County. The Burlington/Alamance urbanized area is the largest area in NC without a bus system currently. We had a bus system at one point that was inadequate and later shut down in the 80s. I think the whole corridor mentioned is poised for commuter rail, note that almost every major univerisity is located along the rail line except UNC, student/faculty ridership could be huge. In areas where their isn't transit (as in busses), i'm sure by the time the line is started there will be. The sad part is, if this line becomes a reality it will probably come before TTA and Eastrans to it will be the Triangle's commuter rail for awhile. Just something to think about. The same discussion about this line is currently going on in the Triad forum.

[JDC]

A commuter line from Triad to Triangle without a larger network of mass transit to move and connect people is a pointless waste of money.

[raleightransplant]

There really are a TON of major employment and residential spots along this line. If you look at present-day I-40 between the Triad and Triangle, it's obvious to me that this thing could really move people to where they're needing to go.

[orulz]

I'm not quite sure how the service on this line could be structured since there are so many diverse origins and destinations all jumbled together.

One possible benefit this has over the TTA plan, is that the TTA plan required construction of a completely new set of tracks, separated from the freight tracks by 20-something feet. This idea will use the existing railroad. Even if they need to build new tracks to make it happen, Adding tracks to an existing railroad is probably a lot cheaper than building a whole new parallel railroad.

NCDOT's previous and already planned projects to add & signalize a second track to the NCRR seem to be budgeted at $1.5-$3.5 million per mile. That's just for the tracks, though, not the stations. Wonder what the cost per mile of just the roadbed, track, and signals for the TTA line would have been?

[vitaviatic]

This seems to be shaking out logically. The big winner in this announcement is Goldsboro, which is now included de nuevo into the fold. There already exists Piedmont and Carolinian service throughout the Crescent, so basically this is more or less a beefing up of an already existing service.

It has always made much more sense for the state to invest the funds it had promised to TTA, to instead direct it to its own NCRR, whereby all the double tracking/multi-mainlining could be done in-house, and to grant TTA tenant operator status on the NCRR. It's a much cheaper option in the end, as well as a much more flexible one, in that NCRR could design for HSRC, as well as freight, from the outset. It significantly lightens the financial load for TTA as well. That said, if the NS and CSX local switching operations do indeed move eastward, it will undoubtedly clear up the corridor to where I think 8 trains a day is pretty conservative. Running trains doesn't congest the mainline -- breaking trains and shoving cars into spurs for industry spots does. If this work can be organized enough to be done in the early AM hours (this is better for the freight customers anyway, as they have the loads ready for morning ops), this clears up even more running room.

If the NCRR finds its way into funding for track improvements, commuter rail becomes a fast-starter. Now let's hope that the several entities can get their engines pulling in the same direction.

[urbanvb]

Kind of off topic right now but would someone uppdate me on the current status for LR in Raleigh. Is Cherokee still working with TTA ?

[orulz]

I suspect, though it's only a guess on my part, that this whole plan is David King's brain child. He was deputy secretary of NCDOT for some time, focusing on rail and transit. He seems to be politically well-connected, and reportedly was instrumental in getting the current list of NCRR improvement projects into NCDOT's TIP (as in, without King there pushing the cause, it simply would not have happened). So, he no doubt is close with the board at NCRR, too. And now, he's head honcho at TTA.

I wonder if he had anything to do with the 1998 buyout of the outstanding 25% of NCRR stocks, too?

This makes me think of King because a couple years ago I heard him speak about rail in NC. His stated goal with the NCRR was hourly, all-day service between Raleigh and Charlotte, as well as commuter connections and intercity connections to the NEC and the rest of the southeast.

[vitaviatic]

I think you're right, O. It's amazing how much Mr. King seems to be getting done from a peripheral position. Of course, he has a very successful, fully functional model to follow -- Amtrak California.

Despite the "Amtrak" at the beginning of the name, Amtrak California is all Caltrans. Amtrak does the day-to-day crewing and maintenance of the operation, but the planning and execution comes from Sacramento. Keep in mind that most of the Capitol Corridor (Sacto to Oakland and San Jose) is operated along Union Pacific trackage. Way busier, way more complex topographically. Without the state's combination of enticements (contributing to track improvements and double tracking, etc.) and strongarming, it is very doubtful that Southern Pacific (even in its allegedly "dire financial straits") would have played along. I have always said that operating mass transit at the state level is not a bad idea, especially in the "string of pearls" configuration of North Carolina cities. It eliminates trivial bickering over minutia, and creates a seamless operation over a much wider area, lending the operation to a much greater efficacy.

The thing is that North Carolina would be in a position to manage the NCRR corridor in a much more efficient manner than California could possibly do with the Capitols. If triple tracking is called for, the state can do it, and far easier than it would be even to widen a two-lane highway to four lanes and a median. After all, it is a state asset that they are improving, and believe me, there couldn't be a better scenario than this. Bill Richardson got the same thing done on BNSF in Albuquerque, and will later in Santa Fe as well. This is easy stuff for NC. And as we've mentioned of late, if a whole raft of improvement packages for the NCIP and Morehead to move switching yards further east comes along, you've now built a huge political constituency for various projects, benefiting a much larger geopolitical area of the state, with a much bigger pool of funds to draw from.

It could get done between Raleigh and Durham, but we've addressed the myriad problems here ad nauseum. The rail infrastructure is far and away the biggest expense and logistical obstacle to getting fast, frequent commuter service underway. The Chinese Wall for TTA has been getting sufficient track improvements to get going. If that weight is removed, and taken on by the state through the NCRR, TTA will fly high. TTA as a tenant unit could literally be rolling within two years, with no funding problems whatsoever.

I think the $3.5m per mile figure would need to be revisited though, at least in the urban corridors where flyovers and other upgrades are needed. Steel and concrete costs are somewhere up in the stratosphere right now, headed for the exosphere as China, India, and the Asian Tigers continue their economic ascent. That said, even at $10m a mile it is still a great investment. Stations don't concern me. Stations can be what you want them to be, anything from a sterile concrete slab with a dozen glowtops to a fully enclosed building. If the Greensboro - Goldsboro route is used, the already existing stations are sufficient for now. Furthermore, stations (if done right) can be set up as separate profit centers, deriving income from static advertising (just like RDU does), gift shop/convenience store/snack bar/restaurant revenue (just like RDU does), and the conferring of air rights for commercial structures, just to name a few. Thus, the stations could even be bonded separately and constructed outside of the NCRR's budget if there were to be any benefit derived from that.

[ChiefJoJo]

In the FWIW category, I just returned from Portland, and of course they have an excellent transit system... but the interesting thing is I rode the MAX (Metro Area Express) light rail all over the region, and even on Saturday the cars were jammed, except the one to the airport... once we got to the last stop (PDX), I was literally the only person on my train who had any baggage with me. There were 2-3 others on the line that got off there (I assume) to either meet arriving passengers or get to work. Also, this MAX (Red) line, was built in 2001 as the third major extension since 1986. Even in a metro area is that is light years ahead of the Triangle in terms of transit and land use, the vast majority (95%+) of people going to/from the airport drive or get picked up in a car, so... in the lessons learned category:

• (just like I thought) running direct rail service to the airport isn't so important--especially initially

• IMO the people who complain "it doesn't go to the airport" are probably the last people who will actually use the system and probably should be educated or simply ignored

• in our system, we should focus on serving the downtowns, the universities, other focus areas (N Hills, etc), and future TOD areas

[RaleighRob]

^Some good points. While I think I saw a few more folks using the airport stop than you did, you're right...there weren't many. (And most of the ones who did use it seemed to be tourists.) It seemed that downtown was the part where the MAX lines truly had a critical mass of ridership...lots of young people (students?), some disabled riders, and senior citizens.

[DB78]

You know it's tough to discern the truth sometimes. I've heard great things about Portland's rail system in the media and here too. On the other hand, I've heard that the ridership of their rail system and busy systems has gone down noticeably and that there is more gridlock on the roads. I like mass transit- don't get me wrong. I'd definitely use rail whenever plausible in Raleigh. Being able to read a book, safely eat food without worrying about crashing, etc is great. But most people like their cars and the freedom it represents. This will change a bit as gas goes to $4 in 2-3 years and $5 in 5-6 years. Even then I suspect people will simply buy more efficient cars.

If even Portland is having trouble convincing all but a few percentage points of the metro area's population to ride mass transit, what chances are their that sprawled to hell areas like the Triangle will get good transit use?

I wonder if the inevitable rising of gas prices mixed with the extreme car dependency of planned areas like the Triangle won't be our achille's heel.

[Transplant]

First of all, there are already a great deal of destinations and sources on this line:

• Clemmons (bedroom community)

• Hanes Mall

• Forsyth Hospital

• Baptist Medical Center

• Downtown WS

• PTRP

• Salem College/Old Salem

• WSSU

• Kernersville (bedroom community)

• PTI airport

• Greensboro Coliseum

• UNCG

• Downtown Greensboro

• NC A&T

• Elon College

• Downtown Burlington (Labcorp!)

• Mebane/Efland (Booming bedroom communities)

• Hillsborough (Orange County government, bedroom community)

• Duke Hospital

• Duke University

• 9th Street

• Downtown Durham

• RTP

• Cary (bedroom community on steroids)

• NC Fairgrounds

• Meredith College

• NCSU

• Downtown Raleigh (state government, plenty of employment)

• Garner, Clayton, Selma, Goldsboro, all significant potential origins of traffic.

  There are some other destinations that could be linked via rail extension on the Chapel Hill spur (also owned by NCRR):

  • Carolina North

  • Carrboro

  • Chapel Hill

  • UNC

  There's also Seymour Johnson AFB in Goldsboro. Not on the line, but they have a rail spur and could probably be linked in.

  So, even without other mass transit links, this follows the age old, tried and true methodology of linking origins and destinations to make a useful transit corridor.

  But then again, on closer inspection, there actually IS a larger network of mass transit (let's not forget, buses are transit, too!)

  [*]The Winston Salem bus system

  [*]The Greensboro bus system

  [*]PART's regional bus system

  [*]Chapel Hill/Orange County's bus system

  [*]Durham's bus system

  [*]Cary's bus system

  [*]NCSU's bus system

  [*]Raleigh's bus system

  [*]TTA's regional bus system

  And, as luck would have it, all of the above systems have hubs that are on, close to, or planned to be moved close to, the rail line. And all of the cities could no doubt tweak or completely rewire their bus systems to be in sync with a rail line.

  Burlington, Goldsboro, and Smithfield are the largest cities on or near the line that don't have city buses, but perhaps they could step up to the plate.

  Don't get caught in a catch-22 where you say "We have no other fixed guideway transit, but a new transit line won't work without connections to existing fixed guideway transit." By that logic, you'd have to build a massive, full build-out scenario all at once to have any success, and that's just impossible.

  Well, this is a good list. And it is pretty clear that there are basically two areas, Triangle and Triad listed. Almost none of your list, however, contains a densly developed area. So best case, riders will have to take a bus, to the train, to another bus. Would people use this, sure, but not many. We are many years from having sustainable density for a project like this.

  How often will people in the Triangle want to travel (either by car or train) to any place in the Triad? Or vise versa?

  Once in a while at best. The State currently runs 2 trains from Raleigh to Charlotte, which pass over this very route daily! We should be able find actual ridership numbers.

  Train Schedule

  and the other one.

  If/When the TTA gets their act together and dense development follows, then I could see something like a Commuter Rail working. Instead of running these trains now, why not run busses?

[JeffC]

column by N&O political columnist Rob Christenson calling for better bus transit in Raleigh

From this weekend. Look how pathetic our bus system is compared even to other, smaller but older Southern cities...

[Transplant]

column by N&O political columnist Rob Christenson calling for better bus transit in Raleigh

From this weekend. Look how pathetic our bus system is compared even to other, smaller but older Southern cities...

[ChiefJoJo]

You know it's tough to discern the truth sometimes. I've heard great things about Portland's rail system in the media and here too. On the other hand, I've heard that the ridership of their rail system and busy systems has gone down noticeably and that there is more gridlock on the roads. I like mass transit- don't get me wrong. I'd definitely use rail whenever plausible in Raleigh. Being able to read a book, safely eat food without worrying about crashing, etc is great. But most people like their cars and the freedom it represents. This will change a bit as gas goes to $4 in 2-3 years and $5 in 5-6 years. Even then I suspect people will simply buy more efficient cars.

If even Portland is having trouble convincing all but a few percentage points of the metro area's population to ride mass transit, what chances are their that sprawled to hell areas like the Triangle will get good transit use?

I wonder if the inevitable rising of gas prices mixed with the extreme car dependency of planned areas like the Triangle won't be our achille's heel.

[Creasy336]

Well, this is a good list. And it is pretty clear that there are basically two areas, Triangle and Triad listed. Almost none of your list, however, contains a densly developed area. So best case, riders will have to take a bus, to the train, to another bus. Would people use this, sure, but not many. We are many years from having sustainable density for a project like this.

How often will people in the Triangle want to travel (either by car or train) to any place in the Triad? Or vise versa?

Once in a while at best. The State currently runs 2 trains from Raleigh to Charlotte, which pass over this very route daily! We should be able find actual ridership numbers.

Train Schedule

and the other one.

If/When the TTA gets their act together and dense development follows, then I could see something like a Commuter Rail working. Instead of running these trains now, why not run busses?

[DB78]

Maybe I'm drinking the koolaid, but Portland seems like a wonderfully planned mid-sized, urban city that values balanced transport options, historic community preservation and the environment--and really has deeply committed itself to those values.

Young professionals and baby-boomers these days want more urban and active lifestyles and this area provides little in those areas. Despite advances in technology and telecommuting, many planners think the early 21st century will lead to a rebirth of the city. Demographic trends are already telling us that, and climate change, oil prices, and obesity/health problems will only increase these trends IMO. Seriously, if this area doesn't get it's act together soon, it will be our downfall.

[Creasy336]

I would love to see DMU's used for the commuter line. I have reading alot about how they are used on the Miami Metro;s Tri-Rail commuter line that is 72 miles long. They had lots of success so far with the DMU trains they have started using to replace traditional locamotives with push and pull railcars. Here is wikipedia's article on the success they've had using DMUs.

[yfreemark]

Just so we can get some basic facts out there about Portland, here are official Tri-Met Stats:

FY 06 Total Boardings (Bus and LRT): ~ 96 million

FY 03 Total Boardings: ~ 89 million

FY 99 Total Boardings: ~ 76 million

FY 93 Total Boardings: ~ 57 million

FY 88 Total Boardings: ~ 47 million

(obviously, I've just picked a few years - but ridership has increased every year since 1988, except for FY 05-06, when there was a very slight decrease in bus ridership).

The evidence shows that Portland's mass transit system has become increasingly important, doubling ridership in the region in less than 20 years, with an average of 307,200 weekday rides in FY 06, compared to 158,800 in FY 88.

Portland's system works.

[Jones_]

Maybe I'm drinking the koolaid, but Portland seems like a wonderfully planned mid-sized, urban city that values balanced transport options, historic community preservation and the environment--and really has deeply committed itself to those values.

Young professionals and baby-boomers these days want more urban and active lifestyles and this area provides little in those areas. Despite advances in technology and telecommuting, many planners think the early 21st century will lead to a rebirth of the city. Demographic trends are already telling us that, and climate change, oil prices, and obesity/health problems will only increase these trends IMO. Seriously, if this area doesn't get it's act together soon, it will be our downfall.

[Transplant]

Probably my last post regarding a Triad<->Triangle Commuter line.

Let me ask proponents of the line: Should the state and municipalities spend money on the commuter line before or after regional lines get built?

[Creasy336]

If the NCRR gives us a pricetag on the line thats feasible on their tracks then yes. The article said 4 commuter trains per rush hour serving Triangle commuters from Goldsboro to Burlington, and Triad commuters from Clemmons to Burlington. Until how the line would operate gets clarified, I take it as two seperate lines with a transfer in Burlington. I don't see how they can have 4 trains per rush hour going across the whole line due to conflicts in commuting patterns. I think the municipalities should spend money on the commuter lines if they are guarunteed to get the lines before their regional rail gets started, say for instance TTA's phase 1 might not start construction until 2011 or later due to various problems, but the commuter line can be running as early as late 2010 early 2011. Then the region would get a boost being able to commute from Goldsboro to Burlington with added stops at maybe NCSU, Morrisville (RTP), RTP, and others. As far as the Triad's regional rail its a no brainer being that the Triad may not see any form of regional rail until after 2020. The state would benefit from having 2 of it's largest metros connected even further through rail transit. But if TTA comes out next year with a plan to start construction through the help of Cherokee or whoever than forget about commuter rail on this line for the moment and go ahead with TTA's phase 1 A.S.A.P!!

[vitaviatic]

...I just returned from Portland...and even on Saturday the (MAX) cars were jammed, except the one to the airport... once we got to the last stop (PDX), I was literally the only person on my train who had any baggage with me. There were 2-3 others on the line that got off there (I assume) to either meet arriving passengers or get to work. Also, this MAX (Red) line, was built in 2001 as the third major extension since 1986. Even in a metro area is that is light years ahead of the Triangle in terms of transit and land use, the vast majority (95%+) of people going to/from the airport drive or get picked up in a car, so... in the lessons learned category:

• (just like I thought) running direct rail service to the airport isn't so important--especially initially

• IMO the people who complain "it doesn't go to the airport" are probably the last people who will actually use the system and probably should be educated or simply ignored

• in our system, we should focus on serving the downtowns, the universities, other focus areas (N Hills, etc), and future TOD areas

[Subway Scoundrel]

In the FWIW category, I just returned from Portland, and of course they have an excellent transit system... but the interesting thing is I rode the MAX (Metro Area Express) light rail all over the region, and even on Saturday the cars were jammed, except the one to the airport... once we got to the last stop (PDX), I was literally the only person on my train who had any baggage with me. There were 2-3 others on the line that got off there (I assume) to either meet arriving passengers or get to work. Also, this MAX (Red) line, was built in 2001 as the third major extension since 1986. Even in a metro area is that is light years ahead of the Triangle in terms of transit and land use, the vast majority (95%+) of people going to/from the airport drive or get picked up in a car, so... in the lessons learned category:

• (just like I thought) running direct rail service to the airport isn't so important--especially initially

• IMO the people who complain "it doesn't go to the airport" are probably the last people who will actually use the system and probably should be educated or simply ignored

• in our system, we should focus on serving the downtowns, the universities, other focus areas (N Hills, etc), and future TOD areas