Triangle Regional Transit

[Cary NC]

Correct me if I wrong, but doesn't Denver do this already with many of their transit stations and downtown center.

[ChiefJoJo]

V, why not just do a TIF? Not enough revenue that way? Incidentally, that's what CATS is using a TIF in Charlotte to assist in finding the North line.

I think some sort of tax district self-financing method is defeinitely the way to go. No one else has to pay directly to fund the system in it's infant stages when political support is likely to be weakest. I would gladly pay for the right to have rapid transit access a few blocks from my home.

[vitaviatic]

Correct me if I wrong, but doesn't Denver do this already with many of their transit stations and downtown center.

[ChiefJoJo]

V, I'm convinced. The TIF is somewhat specuative, I agree. The assessments would be very defined, and clearly conservative based on your estimates, holding fixed the 2007 vaulations for the bonding capacity. It's a no-brainer. Sign me up and if TTA could get the state and RTP foundation to agree to the new stop and/or tax rules, it makes too much sense not to do it. The state may already be convinced of this basic type of approach, as they will be asked to approve the funding plan for the CATS North Corridor project. Hell, we already have the EIS, the rights-of-way, and the design plans for the stations. All that's left is public buy-in & funding.

I know this is water under the bridge, but why the hell didn't Claflin try something innovative like this 2-3 years ago instead of trying to stay the course with the FTA?

[JDC]

I see these Circulator buses when I'm in DC that make one-way trips to major destinations like Georgetown and the Mall. Does Raleigh have anything like that? I know Durham doesn't. Wouldn't it be cool to have a bus that made frequent, predictable stops to popular destinations, connecting the Hillsborough Street/NC State area with downtown Raleigh (and areas in between), or in Durham, a bus that connected the 9th Street/East Campus areas with downtown?

Something like that, I imagine, might get some people onboard who wouldn't normally take transit (including college students) - especially if it were free to ride. I think two reasons some people choose not to take transit in the Triangle is because A) routes are hard to remember and B) it takes longer than it would to drive and find parking. Circulators would also be a fantastic supplement to regional rail, if such a project is ever completed.

[ChiefJoJo]

There's an interesting article in the N&O today about the NC RR's pans for a frieght rail hub near Clayton they would use as a container transfer hub, where port shipments from Morehead City and Wilmington would be transferred to trucks for shipment westward via interstate.

The plans also could open for development one of the largest tracts under single ownership near downtown Raleigh. The railroad has discussed with Norfolk Southern a deal in which Norfolk Southern would leave its switching yard at a 20-acre site off Capital Boulevard for the proposed hub.

Robin Chapman, a spokesman for the Norfolk, Va.-based company, said it is open to a relocation. "We'd consider it," he said. "We don't see a move, but it really doesn't matter that much where we are."

Saylor said the hub also could be used as a passenger station if commuter rail service is begun between Wake and Johnston counties.

How about that... the NCRR president actually talking openly about rail transit using there lines and property. I think David King must have really gotten in his ear, because I can't ever recall anyone from NCRR to NS to CSX ever making any positive public comments on rail transit using their freight corridors. This could be a win-win, especially if NS moves their yard of Capital. Orulz can probably say for certain, but I think their yard is NW of Capital Blvd next to Five Points.

[orulz]

That's right - this is the yard near Five Points. It's owned by Norfolk-Southern and the yard is known as Glenwood Yard. It's just northeast of where the railroad tracks cross Fairview, near Capital Boulevard.

This is great news! I always had a suspicion that this yard was going to become obsolete, for several reasons:

1. It's small. I think it's too short to handle full-length trains, and they have to be split up in order to be switched.

2. It's poorly located. At one point Norfolk Southern favored this line over the NCRR for shipping things east of Raleigh, so it wasn't so bad, but thanks to NC's investments on the NCRR, they've moved all but local traffic off the line. Given Norfolk-Southern's current and planned operations, a yard actually located on the NCRR, not a mile and a half away, would make much more sense.

3. The tracks between the NCRR and Glenwood Yard are a bottleneck. It's a single-track line, and would be expensive to widen due to the numerous bridges where it runs parallel to Glenwood.

4. It's in a nice, dense, residential neighborhood. In addition to having to deal with neighborhood complaints and potential liability, that means the property values are very high, too.

I have speculated for years that NCRR would look at moving their switching operations to a new yard somewhere around Garner or Clayton, though I wouldn't have predicted it would be an intermodal yard as well. First, Morehead City, conveniently located on the NCRR, does not handle container freight. Second, There is no way for trains to get to Garner from Wilmington (which does handle containerized cargo) without running on CSX tracks. Third, Garner and Clayton aren't close to any major interstates, except I-40. And N-S already has a sizeable intermodal yard near I-40 in Greensboro, which isn't that far down the road.

What WOULD make sense, however, is an intermodal yard in Selma, near I-95. That way, Norfolk Southern could transfer container freight coming from the west coast to trucks bound for destinations up and down the eastern seaboard.

***

Glenwood Yard being decommissioned was always inevitable, but I can see this setting into motion a number of changes to the way rail traffic, both passenger and freight, moves through the Triangle area.

If you've ever noticed, there are two rail lines heading north out of downtown Raleigh - the Norfolk Southern line west of Capital and the CSX line to the east. With Glenwood Yard out of the picture, there's no reason for the western line to remain, so why not consolidate the lines into a single right-of-way following the CSX alignment? Aside from a few tight spots, there's plenty of space to widen the CSX line, and in fact TTA already owns most of the parcels where it does get tight.

It would also require eating up part of CSX's yard near Seaboard Station and the Cotton Mill, but that yard is bigger than CSX needs it to be right now, and would probably be poorly located and inadequate for their needs if the line between Petersburg and Raleigh were restored as part of SEHSR. So, build CSX a new yard in Wake Forest or Youngsville, and sell what's left of the old yard near Seaboard Station to NCDOT, who could use it to expand their storage and maintenance yard for passenger trains.

That would eliminate the diamond crossing at Edgerton, and allow the old Norfolk-Southern line to be used for something else: a rail-trail, or better still, light rail! This would be the in-town portion of a Glenwood Avenue light rail line. Follow the rail line from downtown as far north as Fairview, torn west on Fairview to Glenwood, and follow Glenwood to Crabtree and beyond. This would be better than sticking to Glenwood all the way, because it would allow for redevelopment of the industrial areas along N. West Street and near Fairview & Capital, and half of Norfolk-Southern's Glenwood Yard could be partially redeveloped but the other half could serve as the maintenence facility as well.

Did any of that make sense?

[vitaviatic]

...The TIF is somewhat specuative, I agree. The assessments would be very defined, and clearly conservative based on your estimates, holding fixed the 2007 vaulations for the bonding capacity...

[ncwebguy]

I thought the TTA's state government station was/is between West and Capitol on the CSX line just northeast of the Glenwood South split. I guess this would keep those tracks open even if the N-S yard goes away. Or would TTA be realigned with a stop just north of 42nd street oyster bar -- bye bye auto garage and parking lot. With another stop somewhere near Bickett Blvd. or further up, with plenty of empty office space ripe for redevelopment and then onward north. Maybe that is why TTA has been quiet recently?

I see no difference in the "speculativeness" of a TIF and an overlay district. They look at a baseline to the nearby area and create funds based on the improvments. Six of one, half donzen of the other.

There *is* a circulator of sorts that is *free* for NC State students and state employees -- TTA. Buses run every half hour during non-peak times and every 15 minutes during peak times. I don't know why NC State and TTA does not promote this to increase ridership, but so far they have not. Several staff members -- housekeeping and food services -- rode the TTA bus for free from Moore Square to the Hillsborough Street stops -- bell tower and library.

TTA distributes a map for Duke students, faculty, and staff to see how their transit intergrates with TTA. UNC might have had one too, but NC State did not get a similar treatment as of last year.

[Creasy336]

Earlier in this thread when it was mentioned that all of the transit systems in the Triangle should be consolidated into 1. The main issue was the Chapel Hill transit system. Would it be possible to leave out their system, or give them their own seperate set of busses? On the Chapel Hill system, city employees, students, univeristy employees, and those in financial need could be given ID cards annually from their respective institutions and have them set up to also be transit cards that would allow them to ride for free.

[Transplant]

Did any of that make sense?

[Jones_]

I thought the TTA's state government station was/is between West and Capitol on the CSX line just northeast of the Glenwood South split. I guess this would keep those tracks open even if the N-S yard goes away. Or would TTA be realigned with a stop just north of 42nd street oyster bar -- bye bye auto garage and parking lot. With another stop somewhere near Bickett Blvd. or further up, with plenty of empty office space ripe for redevelopment and then onward north. Maybe that is why TTA has been quiet recently?

I see no difference in the "speculativeness" of a TIF and an overlay district. They look at a baseline to the nearby area and create funds based on the improvments. Six of one, half donzen of the other.

There *is* a circulator of sorts that is *free* for NC State students and state employees -- TTA. Buses run every half hour during non-peak times and every 15 minutes during peak times. I don't know why NC State and TTA does not promote this to increase ridership, but so far they have not. Several staff members -- housekeeping and food services -- rode the TTA bus for free from Moore Square to the Hillsborough Street stops -- bell tower and library.

TTA distributes a map for Duke students, faculty, and staff to see how their transit intergrates with TTA. UNC might have had one too, but NC State did not get a similar treatment as of last year.

[JDC]

Earlier in this thread when it was mentioned that all of the transit systems in the Triangle should be consolidated into 1. The main issue was the Chapel Hill transit system. Would it be possible to leave out their system, or give them their own seperate set of busses? On the Chapel Hill system, city employees, students, univeristy employees, and those in financial need could be given ID cards annually from their respective institutions and have them set up to also be transit cards that would allow them to ride for free.

[DB78]

Why can't they all be free? If we were all paying for it (through taxes of course) then perhaps we'd be more inclined to use what we're paying for.

The case for Fare-Free Transit. (They even mention Chapel Hill in this article.)

[vitaviatic]

Why can't they all be free? If we were all paying for it (through taxes of course) then perhaps we'd be more inclined to use what we're paying for...(They even mention Chapel Hill in this article.)

[JDC]

Idealistic, perhaps. Don't forget that our tax dollars also pay for roads, which drive on "for free" in North Carolina. Of course I don't think it's very realistic, not in North Carolina anyway (where you still hear the term "welfare wagon" from time to time).

I listened to an interview with the author of the story I linked to above, in which he talked about how much it costs just to collect fares. Think of all those electronic fare boxes. They've got to be pretty pricey.

Something else I thought of that I don't remember seeing in that piece: When you make the buses "free" to ride, ridership likely increases. Then the bus companies have more clout with advertisers ('cause more people seeing ads in buses). Then, as there's demand for more buses, they can charge more for advertising on ads outside buses because there are more buses for people to see. Of course, this is probably just a drop in the bucket, but it works in theory anyway.

[vitaviatic]

JDC...you have a great argument there. The bootstrapping effect from offering free service would in fact do as you say: 1) get more people on the bus; 2) due to higher ridership, secure more funding for more equipment; and 3) drive up onboard ad rates due to that same higher rider/viewer count. Unfortunately though, especially if you're operating over a wide area, these aspects will only get you halfway over the hump.

For one thing, most "free" routes use jitney buses, and quite a few with capacities of 16 passengers and under, so the operator can skirt the FMCSAs and use a non-CDL driver, thus lowering the driver qualifications and "saving money" in that process. (The resulting litigation from liability from accidents never seems to get factored in for some reason.) For such a small capacity vehicle, the ad rates would not vary that much. Futhermore, if the resultant extra funding from the increased ridership were on a 1:1 basis (a dollar received for every dollar spent on operation and maintenance) that would help. But the ratio is way below that, so once you cut out the farebox support, you get behind the expense curve really fast, and have no other means to recover other than bigger subsidies (and just ask Transitman how easy those are to come by).

From the articles I have read concerning the Triangle's transit agencies, they seem to be missing the boat on advertising. I keep reading about sunbaked bus stop signs with no seats or benches, no shelters, no trash cans...nothing. This is a complete waste of an opportunity.

What usually happens is that Lamar, or CBS, or some other third-party entity comes along and says, "Hey there, Mr. CAT. We understand that you have some passengers gettin' wet over there on Glenwood. Well we'd like to help you out. Just sign the dotted line here!" Then what proceeds to happen is this. The outdoor advertiser or broker will pay for and erect a bus shelter along a busy route, afix some litter cans to it, and proceed to plaster a 4' x 8' or 6' x 8' billboard to it. S/he pays a stipend to the agency for the use of their right to place a shelter at a sanctioned bus stop, then sells the spot just as s/he would a regular billboard. You see, this is what I don't understand about the cheapskating going on there. Bus shelters aren't built for bus riders. They are built for drivers of automobiles to pass by and look at! A well-designed shelter in a busy thoroughfare is not only a functional use of advertising, but also is less obtrusive than a full-sized board. And often with better visibility for the driver. I don't know if Raleigh, Cary, and all of their neighborhoods ending with "e" snob-zoned this type of shelter out in the code, but if so, they should be taken out behind the woodshed for doing so. If the operator is held to task for keeping the shelter clean, intact, and clear of grafitti, there shouldn't be any more eyesore problems with those than your run-of-the-mill fire hydrant. And wonder of wonders, the ad revenue actually does add into the bottom line!

We are working on a hovercraft ferry operation planned from Chicago to Benton Harbor, Michigan that would exploit the slop in the cost of housing between the two shores of Lake Michigan for a ridership. (We also have a similar service drawn up for Wilmington, but folks down there are too inclined to discount the utility of connecting Wilmington's convention center with Carolina Beach, and also too inclined to want it giftwrapped for us to give it high priority. Sound familiar?) One of the major revenue streams (up to a third of total revenues) would be derived from advertising on a passive plasma screen cycling ads as the craft crosses the Lake. We would subsidize each trip in this way through ads for realtors, businesses, etc., in addition to promoting products that we would sell onboard (sodas, chips, beer, etc.) and at gift shops at each terminal. Bottom line, the ads can't pay the freight, but it can sure help with the interest.

[ncwebguy]

Wolfline, NC State's bus service, is free because a part of every students' fees goes to its budget. They have no advertising to speak of, though the sports department pictures (gymnastics, swimminge, etc.) on the outside of some buses may signal a change to that policy. I don't know how things are now, but bus drivers rarely (if ever) checked for student ID back in the early 90s. So the Hillsborough/Avent Ferry/Gorman area has a free bus service along the lines of Chapel Hill. Chapel Hill keeps its bus system free due to a partnership with UNC. The town/gown relationship there is a lot more symbiotic than NCSU/Raleigh due to the size of Chapel Hill, and the town's economy tied to the well being of the university. If NC State shut down tommorow, Raleigh would still be ok.

The problem with advertising *inside* buses is that while you have a captive market, it is not a desired group with a lot of money to spend. Though any money made would help add to the overall budget, community leaders have opposed "forcing" ads on the ridership. TTA's buses might be able to achieve higher ad rates, but for some reason, that has not been explored.

Bus shelter ads may have been banned when they removed a lot of inside the beltline billboards. There was a picture posted somewhere on Urban Planet with a billboard just east of McDowell, north of the new CC site. There are two shelters on Hillsborough Street for Wolfline, CAT, and TTA. The one close to Horne is like a carport -- just a roof and a bench, so there is no "sidewall" to put ads on. It may have been built by the university. The one near the belltower has lights behind plexiglass, but I don't remember ever seeing an ad in there. The light may be there to prevent its use as an overnight shelter as well.

The nicest shelter I know of in the city of Raleigh, if not the Triangle, is the one on Glenwood south of Five Points. It is large and made of stone. I don't know if the Hayes-Barton neighborhood built it so "the help" can feel a little better about riding the bus, or if it is left over from the trolley line that used to go by there to the Bloomsbury trolley park on the land that is now Raleigh Country Club.

Inside-the-bus and bus shelter advertising would be prone to graffiti attacks, which might be why the bus systems and/or advertisers are reluctant to install them.

Between gas tax, vehicle property tax, registration and inspections fees, taxes on parts and labor for upkeep, and insurance tax, there are several revenue streams paying for the use of roads. Are those enough? Yes, for the road system in place 10-15 years ago. The taxes have *not* kept pace with the widening and expansions since then (to say nothing of the upkeep of the larger system), and the DOT is in a bind because it didn't push for the increased revenue years ago. But to say "bus fares should be subsidized to the point of being free because cars ride on roads for 'free'" is a misguided argument at best.

[DPK]

The shelter over by the Belltower is owned by NCSU I believe. It has Wolfline route maps on the walls inside it. The fleet of Wolfline buses has also just been upgraded for the coming fall as a result of a new contract between the University and First Transit (replacing Veolia as the university's transit provider). The new fleet costed $350000/bus ($10150000 total!), but each new bus is environmentally friendly.

More details:

http://media.www.technicianonline.com/medi...t-2925269.shtml

[orulz]

Wolfline is now open to the public (as of 3 or 4 years ago.) You no longer require an NCSU ID to ride the buses. They did this so that they would become eligible for federal capital assistance (ie assistance for replacements of buses.) It's nice to see the wolfline buses finally getting replaced; those old Blue Bird buses were getting long in the tooth.

There are quite a few good bus shelters on NCSU's campus. The one at D.H. Hill Library along the Hillsborough Street frontage road is quite nice, as is the one on Morrill next to Carmichael Gym. There's some pretty passable shelters at the Park & Rides, too, but I don't think they're lit as nicely as the above two. I imagine there are some pretty nice ones at Centennial as well, but I never had any classes there so I wouldn't know.

[vitaviatic]

I'll try to post a picture of a representative bus shelter here within the next week, although they have them in DC too. At the rates they garner per month, the shelter is more or less paid for within the first couple of months. They are somewhat susceptible to graffiti, but with Lexan coverings it comes right off. The operator normally takes care of that, along with trash pickup as part of the bargain. But that could be contracted out as well. In practice, the shelter cleaning process usually shakes out as a Minority & Disadvantaged Business Enterprise contract, which are already mandated by the Feds for the agencies in receipt of transit funding.

Lights generally aren't required as the shelters are normally diagonaled toward the oncoming traffic in the street, so what streetlamps don't provide, the headlamps of the cars coming by do. It really isn't a budget buster at all. It's fairly easy money in the scheme of things, and especially in a wet climate like the Carolinas, it really aids the passengers in wait. I have a hard time believing the idea hasn't been broached yet there, but who knows, it may be a good business opportunity lying in wait for somebody out there. Gimme a call, I'll throw my two cents in!

Again, advertising on buses themselves is a non-starter. Especially with the Triangle's fleet sizes and rider profiles. Ads on the sides of buses and in shelters are aimed at cars and pedestrians. Those are the big money generators. Most of what you see onboard even here are PSAs and service advisories from the transit agency itself. As for the plasma screens ads that I alluded to, those would be appropriate for high-volume vehicles only (in effect, trains), and those making average trips of a half-hour or more. Yes, they are a captive audience, and you hear objections generally only when there is sound to the ads. The plasma screens are silent, so the passenger is not acosted by unwanted noise from the display, and needs only look at it if s/he really wants to. People are actually very accepting of the idea if they understand that such ads help to keep their fares lower than they would be without.

[ChiefJoJo]

Guys, I'm out in Portland, and it's a urban planners dream out here. I'm on the streetcar line and within a short walk of the three MAX light rail lines. Oh, and they are simultaneously building a new light rail line right thru downtown, to the SE of town and a new commuter rail line to the SW. Anyone who has any doubts about how transit can work to shape growth and move thousands of people must visit!

[RaleighRob]

^Dude! I was just there (Wed-Sat)! Small world.

I agree...they are the model for good urban planning, no doubt. The MAX lines were outstanding, and the streetcars too. And talk about walkability and bicycle access! It's as easy to live there without a car as it is in Manhattan. But definitely cleaner!

[Cary NC]

Commuter Rail from the Triad to the Triangle?

While the N.C. Railroad looks to get more freight traffic off our crowded highways and onto its tracks, the state-owned railroad is also thinking about new commuter trains that could serve the Triangle and the Triad.

[Transplant]

Commuter Rail from the Triad to the Triangle?

http://www.newsobserver.com/news/story/647336.html

edited by orulz: don't quote entire articles or entire sections of articles.