Triangle Regional Transit

[ChiefJoJo]

V, I agree with you wholeheartedly. Transit is a necessity here for a variety of reasons, including global competitiveness. We need to start ASAP.

WRAL: transit could help air pollution. Well, no big shocker there. I think the part that the anti-transit crowd misses is looking at the opportunity cost of not having transit on congestion and AQ. If TTA built phase by 2012, it might only have 6,000 riders on opening day, but the real benefits are reached as growth occurs and new development settles around TODs (instead of the burbs) which helps mitigate some of the increase in congestion and AQ issues.

FYI, the next STAC is tomorrow morning.

[vitaviatic]

Good writeup on BRT -- It's a four part series featured in the Wired blog. You can follow the links from the first one to successive parts:

Wired -- 09/25/2007

Of note...The capacity issues. Especially as noted in Part IV, the successful BRTs (namely Bogot

[ChiefJoJo]

Feds to NC: expect less $ for transportation. It's something we in the biz have been seeing for quite some time now... revenues are flat compared to needs and costs are severely outstriping purchasing power. As a result, the funding pools are severely overprogrammed, and going bankrupt. Since this was in the context of the STAC, I posted it here, but it affects highways too.

Unfortunately, we are going to pay dearly for not getting a transit line up and started earlier. I think this emphasizes that rapid transit needs to be 100% locally-driven, and paid for with a significant contribution of dedicated local funds. We need to proceed with this 2035 transit plan, have the MPOs adopt it, and move forward ASAP with a small locally (& state?) funded demonstration project, perhaps (as vitaviatic mentioned above) on existing NCRR rails, operated by Amtrak... stops in DT Ral, NCSU, Cary, RTP, Durham. I imagine this could be done very cheaply, using refurbed rail cars. Once service is operating for a year or two and Cherokee is up and running with their development sites, we can then more easily sell to the public the idea of expanding the service with new tracks and stations between Raleigh and Durham and asking the General Assembly for permission to implement a transit tax... then build the rest of the lines with state and--if available--federal funds.

[orulz]

Since when did it become so vital, so fundamental, that the 18.4 cent per gallon gas tax be set in stone, inflation be damned? If there's not enough money in the highway trust fund to build what needs to be built, why can't the gas tax be raised, at least enough to keep up with inflation? Am I missing something here?

[mattm]

I'll explain it with just a quote: "Read my lips; no new taxes!"

As it is, 18.4 cents was set way back in the 1996 TEA highway authorization bill (or was it 1994). There's a really good discussion of the whole issue on the Brookings Institution website at http://www.brookings.edu/es/urban/publications/gastax.htm

[ncwebguy]

It is interesting that during the last decade of oil industry consolidation that was supposed to lower prices, prices (and profits) have gone up while holding the federal tax in check and bridges like the one in Minnesota collapse.

Even the Brookings article is from March 2003 -- pre-Katrina and $3/gallon gas! I wonder what the "buying power" and "adjusted for inflation" numbers are today?

Capping North Carolina's state gas tax was/is stupid. We can't build roads cheaper because we're collecting less in taxes. With the state's growth, we can't afford to handuff our ability to maintain, let alone improve, the state's highway system, yet we've done exactly that.

If there isn't any gains in having a collective federal gas tax, it should be phased out and let states replace it with their own tax base with the $.184/gallon. It made senese when building a unified interstate highway system, but it has been built out now.

With fuel efficiency increasing, we shouldn't solely rely on the gas tax either. Tolls collected to build *and* maintain loops (540, maybe 440) can free gas tax dollars for through roads (I-40, I-85, US 70, US 64, US 1, etc.) and contriube some (not all) funding for traffic-reliving mass transit bus and rail options.

[Gard]

There was an article a while back in the N&O (can't seem to locate it now, anyone else remember it?) that told of the gas tax becomming less and less reliable for the state as a source of revenue. It went on to state that NC was participating in a study with the Federal govt. that would tax you instead on the number of miles you travel vs. a gas tax. They would basically require chips in cars that could be tracked via gps and your car would report your mileage to the appropriate places. For instance, you drive from NC to CA and you could get a tax bill from each of those states, in addition to the cities and counties you drove through for using their roads. Talk about a way to get money out of you! I can see that becoming a court battle. It would basically make every road a toll road.

[DB78]

Gas prices have gone up for 1 simple reason- worldwide demand going way up, while supply is relatively stable. China and India have about 40% of the world's population. Newsflash- they want to live the same standard of living we do, which as we all know includes lots of cars and motorbikes instead of bicycles and on foot. No major new oil fields have been discovered in a long, long time. If prices reach a certain point, shale oil becomes economical, putting the US in a great situation.

Anyway, the GPS taxing system will have to meet a very big uphill battle. Privacy concerns would be huge. Big Brother will be brought up, and rightfully so! It's unnecessary too. Cars that cause the most damage to roads generally use the most gas, and thereby cause more taxes to be paid. Stop funding the waste that we know as CORN ethanol and road repairs aren't as much of a problem

[ChiefJoJo]

OK, let's get this back on track a bit...

For the sake of argument, assuming we are going to have to foot a rather large bill for transit, how do you think we should fund it?

[DPK]

For the sake of argument, assuming we are going to have to foot a rather large bill for transit, how do you think we should fund it?

[orulz]

I think transit funding needs to come from a variety of sources - with far more local sources than now. I'm not an expert on the subject, but here's a couple ideas:

1. Local sales tax. Probably 1/2% throughout Wake, Durham, and Orange county. This can be leveraged both for operational and capital costs.

2. Financing from property taxes on station-area development. This could be done through TIFs or property tax assesment districts.

3. Infrastructure improvements (sidewalks, streetscapes) can be done by the DOT & the respective cities along the line.

4. Finally, a much smaller amount of state and federal funding.

[DB78]

OK, let's get this back on track a bit...

For the sake of argument, assuming we are going to have to foot a rather large bill for transit, how do you think we should fund it?

[ChiefJoJo]

The following plan was presented to the STAC last week... I think it's represents a pretty good effort at a comprehensive, multimodal transit plan... cost about $5B:

RED.............DMU

BLUE............commuter rail

DARK RED....Durham to Chapel Hill LRT/BRT

DASHED.......circulator streetcar or bus

GREEN..........express bus w/limited signal priority

YELLOW........express bus

PINK.............HOT (High Occupancy Toll) lanes

BROWN.........I-540 toll

[thewhister]

I'll get massacred for this, but.....

More charter schools statewide. They usually cost on average about half to educate public school kids and overall kids end up performing better. Plus, it gives parents that nasty thing called CHOICE (Oh heavens NO!!!) You save roughly $4000- 5000 per kid.

Put 200,000 more of NC's kids in charter schools = the savings of $800,000 Million to $1 Billion PER YEAR. Use the money from the savings in just 1 year and TTA is fully funded.

OR

Take the Triangle's share as related to it's share of the state population, and we take about 1/6th-1/7th of the saved money ($128-143 million) every year. You end up having TTA fully funded in less than 7 years. Get more than 300,000 kids into charter schools and TTA is fully funded in under 5 years. We can give the feds the finger and say 'thanks, but no thanks.'

Want even a snowball's chance in hell of having high speed rail (79 mph is NOT high speed rail)? Charter schools. Keep raising taxes and you end up making the same mistakes govts in the Northeast made, which is why so many from the NE left in the first place and are here now. Population and economic growth slows if tax schemes keep coming about. Low taxes are a big reason people have come here. Don't forget that.

Follow the advice of K.I.S.S.- Keep It Simple Stupid

[thewhister]

It is interesting that during the last decade of oil industry consolidation that was supposed to lower prices, prices (and profits) have gone up while holding the federal tax in check and bridges like the one in Minnesota collapse.

Even the Brookings article is from March 2003 -- pre-Katrina and $3/gallon gas! I wonder what the "buying power" and "adjusted for inflation" numbers are today?

Capping North Carolina's state gas tax was/is stupid. We can't build roads cheaper because we're collecting less in taxes. With the state's growth, we can't afford to handuff our ability to maintain, let alone improve, the state's highway system, yet we've done exactly that.

If there isn't any gains in having a collective federal gas tax, it should be phased out and let states replace it with their own tax base with the $.184/gallon. It made senese when building a unified interstate highway system, but it has been built out now.

With fuel efficiency increasing, we shouldn't solely rely on the gas tax either. Tolls collected to build *and* maintain loops (540, maybe 440) can free gas tax dollars for through roads (I-40, I-85, US 70, US 64, US 1, etc.) and contriube some (not all) funding for traffic-reliving mass transit bus and rail options.

[ncwebguy]

For funding sources, I like orulz's plans. I'd make the sales tax .25% to get the Triangle back to 7% -- I hate the current 6.75! I'd also add charging *full* sales tax on *new* vehicles -- cars, motorcycles, boats, planes, etc. The current 3% on cars is not covering the "impact fee" they have on our roads and highways.

I'd also make the gas tax a percentage of trailing wholesale costs, regardless of what that comes out to. The federal gas tax should also be set accordingly. The higher percentage of the federal gas tax made sense early on as it helped pay for the interstate system. Its low percentage of today (.184/2.70 = 6.81%) is why we struggle to maintain/expand it.

Why people fell hook, line, and sinker for equating "high state gas tax" to "high total gas tax" I have no idea, but now the tax is capped and it will be a political mindstorm to undo that mess.

Beverly Purdue is campaigning to repeal the Highway Fund Transfer bill she co-sponsored. How the $170 million shortfall will be accounted for in the general fund, I have no idea. But the transfer was set up to counteract moving the vehicle sales tax from the general fund to the trust fund. If the vehicle sales were subject to the same sales tax as almost everything else, half could go to the highway fund and the other half to counties and/or state.

Merging public school bus systems and area transportation systems could be looked into. It would take a lot of cooperation, but merging vehicles, maintenance, fuel costs, etc. could save money and increase service to a lot of areas that do not get any now. Making schools into "mini-hubs" with connectors running from school to school and limited stops in between could decentralize the current hub/spoke system and make riding the bus more practical for people wanting to get around within one part of town. Kids as young as middle school already ride CAT buses to get to some magnets, so the idea is already inforamlly in place. This could also rein in exurb sprawl, since parents would want to live somewhat close to bus stops.

As for the STAC map, there needs to be a mass transit alternat to 540 for SW Wake. Maybe local circulators that tie into an express bus that goes from downtown Fuquay-Varina to a few Apex stops to a multi-modal RTP hub to tie to the rail backbone and (non-rail!) connector to the airport terminals.

[Transplant]

The following plan was presented to the STAC last week... I think it's represents a pretty good effort at a comprehensive, multimodal transit plan... cost about $5B:

RED.............DMU

BLUE............commuter rail

DARK RED....Durham to Chapel Hill LRT/BRT

DASHED.......circulator streetcar or bus

GREEN..........express bus w/limited signal priority

YELLOW........express bus

PINK.............HOT (High Occupancy Toll) lanes

BROWN.........I-540 toll

[DB78]

For funding sources, I like orulz's plans. I'd make the sales tax .25% to get the Triangle back to 7% -- I hate the current 6.75! I'd also add charging *full* sales tax on *new* vehicles -- cars, motorcycles, boats, planes, etc. The current 3% on cars is not covering the "impact fee" they have on our roads and highways.

I'd also make the gas tax a percentage of trailing wholesale costs, regardless of what that comes out to. The federal gas tax should also be set accordingly. The higher percentage of the federal gas tax made sense early on as it helped pay for the interstate system. Its low percentage of today (.184/2.70 = 6.81%) is why we struggle to maintain/expand it.

Why people fell hook, line, and sinker for equating "high state gas tax" to "high total gas tax" I have no idea, but now the tax is capped and it will be a political mindstorm to undo that mess.

Beverly Purdue is campaigning to repeal the Highway Fund Transfer bill she co-sponsored. How the $170 million shortfall will be accounted for in the general fund, I have no idea. But the transfer was set up to counteract moving the vehicle sales tax from the general fund to the trust fund. If the vehicle sales were subject to the same sales tax as almost everything else, half could go to the highway fund and the other half to counties and/or state.

Merging public school bus systems and area transportation systems could be looked into. It would take a lot of cooperation, but merging vehicles, maintenance, fuel costs, etc. could save money and increase service to a lot of areas that do not get any now. Making schools into "mini-hubs" with connectors running from school to school and limited stops in between could decentralize the current hub/spoke system and make riding the bus more practical for people wanting to get around within one part of town. Kids as young as middle school already ride CAT buses to get to some magnets, so the idea is already inforamlly in place. This could also rein in exurb sprawl, since parents would want to live somewhat close to bus stops.

As for the STAC map, there needs to be a mass transit alternat to 540 for SW Wake. Maybe local circulators that tie into an express bus that goes from downtown Fuquay-Varina to a few Apex stops to a multi-modal RTP hub to tie to the rail backbone and (non-rail!) connector to the airport terminals.

[Jones_]

^^ throw out some more specifics....right now you just sound like a campaigning politician....

[DB78]

^^ throw out some more specifics....right now you just sound like a campaigning politician....

[Jones_]

Maybe so. Anyhow, there are probably dozens of ways to save money if you were to sit down and evaluate the situation. Again, the one that really sticks out in my mind and probably has the biggest net positive while saving the most money is charter schools, like I mentioned earlier.

I've gotten a closeup glimpse before of govt waste with state employees. Overall, a good 1/4th- 1/3rd of them are employed by the state govt just to give someone a job. Not all parts of the state employees, but specific portions- hell yes. I'm not talking engineers or teachers.

Town, city and state highway workers- you know the ones repairing roads. You could cut nearly half of them and no less work would be accomplished. That I know for a fact. Administrative and clerical staff- a good 1/3rd could be given a short term pension and sent on their way. Savings in just being more efficient with govt staff? Several hundred million per year when taking wages and benefits into account. I realize this will have me be the target of some moans and groans, but the truth isn't always pleasant.

And BTW, I'm not against an increase in the federal gas tax, since it's been the same for 11 years. Instead of 18.4 cents it should be more like 26 cents by now. More state taxes needed? No. Especially considering how many businesses have moved to NC in the last few years, who end up bringing in lots more tax revenue to the state.

Why does a state like NC need to have the 2nd most state roads, only behind Texas?? I never understood that well.

[ncwebguy]

This is a thread on transit, not transportation (roads) or charter schools.

As things are now, there are few funding mechanisms for transit, so existing taxes will need to be raised and/or new taxes need to be created.

I'd like to see NC DOT to be operated more efficiently, but they seem to fight that every step of the way. The I-40 fiasco in south Durham was bad enough, but an agency that paid $3.6 million for a study on efficiency that has no documented report it is willing to share with the public is not going to change their ways any time soon. To say nothing of other recent scandals. Ending the "highway trust fund raiding" won't generate signficant revenue. Fact is, the sales tax on a car is less than almost everything else, I hope to be proven wrong, and mabye the DOT's typing pool will be thinned out, but we'll see how that plays out.

Any savings found there should go toward repaing/replacing bridges and other overdue infractructure work. So we still need to find a way to fund transit.

Taxes on vehicles and gas is not a way to "punish people who (gasp) drive and buy goods." It is a mechanisim for them to (gasp) pay for what they are using. I know this is contrary to the "don't tax, but still spend" values behind Gov. Jim Martin's "Roads to the Future" program that led to the current "equity distribution formula" that sends urban tax dollars to fund rual roads with extra capacity. But making people pay for what they use is fair.

The "people are moving here because taxes are low" comment is way off topic. And untrue. Taxes have been low here for decades, yet the population has significantly increased in only in the last 5-10 years. Why? One word, in many forms. Education.

The little secret of the quality of Wake, Durham, and other Triangle public school systems (not charter schools) has been spreading across the country. It makes it easier to get people to transfer here knowing their kids will get a quality grade school education. That education can be continued at not only the Triangle's three Research I institutions but several smaller schools and leading community college systems in the counties.

This educated workforce, in turn, feeds interns and employees to the Research Triangle Park. This attracts industry like biotech, Fidelity, Cisco, Network Appliances, Lenovo, etc. to retain and/or move major operations to the area. Combine that with housing prices that are lower than the northeast and west coast and moving here becomes a no brainer.

There are plenty of states with lower or no taxes, but have not attracted the growth we enjoy because low taxes are useless when the only people paying them have little more than a high school education. I don't envy them at all.

[monsoon]

DB78, This is a transit thread. Please start another topic if you want to have a discussion on taxes and governmental waste.

[DB78]

I don't wish to spend my whole time in this topic discussing taxes, etc. I was simply responding to some comments and questions. Just trying to contribute some ideas that lead us to getting a transit system without punishing people in the process.

One thing that is kind of cool is that the Triangle's traffic hasn't gotten too crazy yet. It's getting worse for sure, but it is certainly still tolerable. I believe local and even regional rail demand will be heading to the forefront in coming years and we will stand to benefit from the renewed attention rail will get. Gas prices will continue to rise. I'll bet $3.50 by next summer and over $4 by 2010. Those are conservative estimates. No real signs of slowing down. Given that that's the case, airplane travel is getting lots of deserved bad PR and traffic congestion is grabbing headlines daily across the US, rail in all forms will become a pragmatic option for more people. Even the diehard car enthusiasts. I give it another 4-5 years before you start hearing everyday people start talking about rail and such.

The Triangle is in a good position because- we are growing fast. People from all over are starting to take notice. I guess some people really pay attention to all those top 10 lists in magazines. Our projected growth will continue to be high during planning stages by state and federal politicians for when they actually begin taking rail systems as a viable option.

Of course places like California will get much more attention than we will, but we will still get our fair share of attention, considering our relative proximity between DC, Charlotte and Atlanta. North Carolina will continue to get more and more attention in coming years. Just in time for when some serious rail plans start to get put into place.

[Jones_]

Metro, we did get pretty tangental and its your call obviously but I think its cool to include side issues as long as we relate them back, DB did, I did not and apologize......funding transit being expensive, specfically cost escalation, was the main case made by local opposition..... Over coming that perception is one of the keys in getting the whole region behind the idea. Hopelessly clogged roads are too to a degree but that to date has led simply to a call for more roads. It is noteworthy that very often one political party tends to campaign against government waste and against mass transit of all types. DB has taken an unusal stance embracing one, waste, to use for the other, transit. With news outlets like the N&O and WRAL having so much influence and so little regard for things like facts and numbers, changing mentalities becomes front burner. People don't like having things rammed down their throat and in the conservative hallways I work in that perception prevails as it does still for things like the Convention Center. Sure some people will never be sold on it, but TTA has got to figure out a way to throw the swayable middle third a bone....