Downtown Orlando Project Discussion

[gibby]

12 minutes ago, Jernigan said:

Orlando Central update - 6/27 requested an extension on variance for parking requirements.    I had believed this project was just a proposal to help sell the land, and it may still be.  Just wanted to share

Which project is this?

[jack]

1 hour ago, alex said:

One big reason for the high rents in Orlando is that so much of our housing is new. And for new multifamily, developers only build in the 200 to 300 unit range. That amount is the sweet spot for the numbers to work: developers have to balance very high parking requirements (garage constructions alone costs $10k per space, often a substantial amount of the overall construction costs) and the amenities people expect (pool, gym, lobby, game room, lounge, etc.). On top of that, they throw in some granite countertops and call it "luxury" to charge even more.

Because of this, we're not seeing 1) new infill apartment complexes built on smaller lots in the 20 to 100 unit range and 2) simple apartments. I think there's a huge unmet need for simpler apartments, by which I mean an apartment without "luxury" finishes, pool, gym, or parking spaces. Obviously, we're still a ways from building apartments downtown without parking (Miami just recently started), but hopefully the student housing and affordable housing in Creative Village will act as a model for this type of apartment building.

When something smaller does come along, it's usually a very rare find. How many townhouses/brownstones are there downtown? How many converted lofts and churches are there downtown? Older cities, especially up north, have a huge stock of pre-war rowhouses and warehouses, which we just don't have.

tl;dr We're not affordable because we mostly have brand-new, giant, amenity-rich housing complexes while not having any old apartment buildings.

Yes, but smaller builders are not the answer. Amenities cost money that need to be spread over a large number of tenants. Smaller buildings have higher operating costs which makes it hard to build. Eliminating the amenities help but that is not enough for most projects. Also, the parking and structural costs are what makes urban housing expensive. Going from formica to granite to quartz is a big price difference but it wont kill a deal. Build a high rise with no buildout and it would still cost a decent amount to rent. Cabinets, flooring etc. are a small part of the hard costs. 

[aent]

7 hours ago, alex said:

the student housing and affordable housing in Creative Village will act as a model for this type of apartment building.

 

I doubt it. Even all the new student housing near UCF is "luxury" student housing and amenity rich. It just makes so much more financial sense to add in those amenities and get the higher rent. I think we'll start to see a few older properties fail to renovate and maintain everything and yesteryear's luxury apartments will be tomorrow's standard apartments. Which I prefer anyways, who is going to be excited about cheap apartments? And the high end stuff is supposed to last longer, so it should be less likely to get knocked down 20-50 years down the line.

Edited July 2, 2016 by aent

[jrs2]

construction pricing in Orlando is too high.  Up north they use brick and in many places it's cheaper than here.  Orlando is inflated b/c of the housing crisis from a decade ago and fast growth which drove up prices in the late '90's and lead to the 2005 skyrocket of values, mimicking Miami.  Housing prices fell, but went up again.

Just look at industrial space...Orlando is lacking according to the OBJ, so the market favors the landlords.

 

[nite owℓ]

11 hours ago, GTR said:

Samsara is a wonderful concept, but was very unimpressed with the execution of the construction when I was shopping for a pre-construction unit and toured the open house.  Seems that is a theme with this developer from what I've heard - beautiful to look at but good luck with the quality. Kinda the exact opposite of the Brownstones. Would be fine if the prices where about 25% lower, but absurd prices to charge for amateur hour construction.

That's disappointing. The model unit shown on their website looks nice - what was "shoddy" about it? Yeah the prices are a bit high, but I was thinking that was due to the complete gut renovation of the structure. I've always envisioned that building repurposed for residential use so I'm just happy it survived the decades of intentional neglect brought on by the Diocese.

Where did you end up buying or are you still looking?

[TRENCH]

tldr: the housing bubble is going to burst again.  Houses that actually costs $60,000 are being sold for $150,000+ in the whole Central Florida area.  And I'm talking about houses built in the 1950's 3br/2bath that are deteriorating being sold for ridiculous prices.

[alex]

On ‎7‎/‎1‎/‎2016 at 9:08 PM, aent said:

I doubt it. Even all the new student housing near UCF is "luxury" student housing and amenity rich. It just makes so much more financial sense to add in those amenities and get the higher rent. I think we'll start to see a few older properties fail to renovate and maintain everything and yesteryear's luxury apartments will be tomorrow's standard apartments. Which I prefer anyways, who is going to be excited about cheap apartments? And the high end stuff is supposed to last longer, so it should be less likely to get knocked down 20-50 years down the line.

I've always hated the oxymoron of "luxury" and "student housing." But those are also in unincorporated Orange County. I'm hoping that between City of Orlando regulations and a fairly strict and selective Creative Village planned development/master plan we'll see some more diverse housing types.

I think the idea that today's luxury apartments will be normal/affordable in the future is the saving grace of Orlando's current insane rents.

 

On ‎7‎/‎1‎/‎2016 at 2:30 PM, jack said:

Yes, but smaller builders are not the answer. Amenities cost money that need to be spread over a large number of tenants. Smaller buildings have higher operating costs which makes it hard to build. Eliminating the amenities help but that is not enough for most projects. Also, the parking and structural costs are what makes urban housing expensive. Going from formica to granite to quartz is a big price difference but it wont kill a deal. Build a high rise with no buildout and it would still cost a decent amount to rent. Cabinets, flooring etc. are a small part of the hard costs. 

That's what I was saying: let's tap into renters who are fine living in a mid-rise building with no amenities, no parking spot, and standard finishes. That means unit numbers are more flexible and we can start to fill in smaller lots. It won't give you an insta-skyline, but will bring a lot more people into downtown neighborhoods.

[FLClarkKent]

55 minutes ago, alex said:

That's what I was saying: let's tap into renters who are fine living in a mid-rise building with no amenities, no parking spot, and standard finishes. That means unit numbers are more flexible and we can start to fill in smaller lots. It won't give you an insta-skyline, but will bring a lot more people into downtown neighborhoods.

Does anyone know how many people live downtown these days? I'm curious what the numbers look like compared to five, ten, or 20 years ago.

[John Hargrove]

6 hours ago, alex said:

I've always hated the oxymoron of "luxury" and "student housing."

55 West proved this is possible. Not on purpose, though.

 

 

[alex]

Let's not confuse student housing with fraternity housing, though! He he.

[JFW657]

Channel 9 ran a segment on the downtown projects this afternoon.

Link

: Orlando sees spike in development proposals despite some delayed projects

Orlando is preparing to see more construction cranes after the announcement of a new high-rise in downtown--the city's first, since the 2009 recession.

It will be some time before ground breaks on the lot, but a 28-story building will be the symbol of new growth in the Orlando area.

The city is seeing a big jump in the number of developers pitching new ideas to the city.

So far this year, the city has heard 65 appearance review board cases.

That’s more than the total number of cases they had in 2011, when the board first started.

Channel 9 learned some of the city's most talked-about projects are behind schedule.

A new hotel and retail space was supposed to be built across from the county courthouse, but that plot has been sold with no plans to develop.

The Dr. Phillips Center for the Performing Arts is still fundraising for a new concert hall.

The proposed hotel has not been discussed yet.

And construction on the controversial high rise, Modera Central, was supposed to start July 1, but a spokesperson said it’s been delayed.

The University of Central Florida’s downtown campus now has a design firm, but hasn't broke ground yet.

A few blocks away, the Orlando City Soccer Stadium is still on track to open next March.

Orlando Mayor Buddy Dyer said in a statement that downtown Orlando is where everyone wants to be. 

 

[Dale]

That is what I'd call a dark cloud in every silver-lining report.

[JFW657]

Regarding the news about the 2nd phase of the Central Station property, that could be good news.

Maybe instead of the squatty midrise that was originally proposed, we'll end up with a highrise on that spot yet.

 

[jrs2]

^^

I don't think anything will get built at Central Station, especially a hotel.  I think so because the Magic are planning a big hotel in their "second phase" of the entertainment complex where OPD currently sits.  DPAC also wants a hotel nearby across from Grand Bohemian.  Residence Inn opened last year at Orange & Colonial.  I would bet against this ever happening.

[jack]

It does not seem like there are more projects. I'd reckon that many are small projects or facade improvements. Or, they were first proposed in 2014 and 2015. 

[jrs2]

so, what should be the next project to break ground, Tremont or 520?  I say Tremont, b/c based on the downtown track record on construction timetables the past few years, because Citi Tower is u/c, they won't break ground on anything within a block of it until it tops off.  520 would be within a block of it.

[Jernigan]

Growthspotter reporting that sale of Sentinel property to Miami firm is complete and they have no immediate plans to redevelop.   They also own the southern parcel at Centeal Station

[Dale]

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/business/brinkmann-on-business/os-new-owner-orlando-sentinel-20160712-story.html

[alex]

While I don't like the part about "long-range plans" (18 years of leases??), I think it's a good sign that it's the same developers as Midtown Miami. They've done a great job designing an urban neighborhood center and seeing it through (most of what's shown in the rendering has been built or is under construction now). It's also a good chance for Downtown to get some substantial retail.

[prahaboheme]

Didnt Midtown also buy up the Central Station plot?

[Jernigan]

Yes 

[orlandoguy]

First Green Bank has been confirmed as the new tenant for the former Old Southern building at 250 N Orange. Includes naming rights, ground floor branch with drive-thru, and office space above.

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/classified/realestate/os-orlando-green-bank-20160713-story.html

[cwetteland]

An OBJ article said that to meet their LEED green building certification they were going to put in new windows, solar panels, among other things. Not sure if that'll change the look. 

[JFW657]

In the linked article, somebody referred to the building as an "architectural gem".

Whaaaaa.......?????? 

 

[jack]

If I recall (and I am too lazy to confirm) midtown sold off midtown Miami. These guys are land bankers