Lake Nona - Medical City

[GregoryMCSE]

Like every other facet of America life circa 2023 politics is ruining this site.  I really hate political discussions on non political sites. Also hate when people label broad swaths of society with corrosive labels.  As a person born and raised in Florida, I can tell you that Disney is a complex issue.  Views for and against Disney real cross party lines.  Let’s be civil and accepting of different view points.   

[shardoon]

So, disclaimer, I am a conservative with liberal leanings. I'm pro choice, pro 2nd amendment, but do support red flag laws and intense background checks, fiscally conservative. I do not check all the boxes on one side of the ballot. With that being said, I have to balance everything when making a choice. I tend to vote republican, because I have more disagreements with what the Democrat party has become compared to the republicans.... although my patience was tried with Trump, but still would have rather ed him then Biden. 

I was hopeful DeSantis was gonna be less Trump, but this ego fight seems like it's Trump's ego. 

What he should have said was that he disagreed with Disney's position, but supported their right to have the disagreement. End it right there. No reedy creek takeover, lawsuits, stupid press conferences talking about opening prisons on disneys land........dumb. he also tanked his political future. 

With that being said, it is equally pathetic that people are jumping on the political train blaming him for disney pulling out of lake nona. They were hemorrhaging money and were laying people off right and left all over including in precious California. If DeSantis was the governor of California, the left would blame him for that too. Disney originally wanted to come here, but then they needed to tighten their wallet. If they were planning on coming, dirt would have been moving years ago, but it was delay delay and then when covid was over, there was a lot of economic downturn........nothing to do with the fight with DeSantis. Although, it was a great opportunity to make a business decision that they were planning to make regardless and make it about DeSantis.

Even worse, I've heard some on the left blame the star cruiser closing on this too. GTFO with the robotic line of thinking on everything. It's ok to be in the center and have different opinions.....not just the party line. 

Yes, DeSantis is an ass in this and he probably ruined his political fortunes. 

 

[F-L-A]

1 hour ago, GregoryMCSE said:

Like every other facet of America life circa 2023 politics is ruining this site.  I really hate political discussions on non political sites. Also hate when people label broad swaths of society with corrosive labels.  As a person born and raised in Florida, I can tell you that Disney is a complex issue.  Views for and against Disney real cross party lines.  Let’s be civil and accepting of different view points.   

It is impossible to discuss the cancellation of this project while completely ignoring the reason for its cancellation (spoiler: it was DeSatan.) Local development and growth of the local economy are being gutted by terrible governance. If that's too political for you, I don't know what to tell you. 

[jrs2]

1 hour ago, F-L-A said:

It is impossible to discuss the cancellation of this project while completely ignoring the reason for its cancellation (spoiler: it was DeSatan.) Local development and growth of the local economy are being gutted by terrible governance. If that's too political for you, I don't know what to tell you. 

...then probably just keep it in the Coffee House.  Otherwise, this is going to turn into a circus.

[jrs2]

For the record, I was against the dissolution of RCID even though I have a laminated pinup of the governor in my hope chest.

https://www.wesh.com/article/disney-development-florida-desantis/43932626

https://nypost.com/2023/05/18/disney-cancels-plans-to-move-2000-jobs-to-florida/

The Post article kind of lays it out timeline-wise; Chapek makes the plan to move; Disney loses money; Chapek is fired; Iger returns; Iger cost cuts on several fronts, including pulling the plug on the Nona campus.  Good article.

Edited May 19, 2023 by jrs2

[KJHburg]

Do I think your governors actions might have contributed to this cancellation maybe a small bit.  But overwhelming it is Disney is cost cutting due to lots of problems.  If it is completely dead they will put the land on the market or allow the developer Tavistock to do something else.  Disney has bigger problems that Gov. Desantis right now.   This has not dimmed Florida's star attraction one bit.  

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/02/08/business/disney-earnings.html

from this article:

""In his first earnings report since he came out of retirement to retake the reins of a troubled Disney, Mr. Iger unveiled a new operating structure for the company — one designed to galvanize its film and television studios while drastically cutting costs. As part of the restructuring, Disney expects to cut costs by $5.5 billion and eliminate roughly 7,000 jobs, or about 4 percent of its global total.

“We must return creativity to the center of the company, increase accountability, improve results and ensure the quality of our content and experiences,” Mr. Iger said on an earnings-related conference call with analysts.""

An example from Charlotte:  new CEO comes in and cost cutting and remote work due to Covid cancels brand new 800,000 sq ft office.

https://www.carolinajournal.com/centene-cancels-charlotte-hq-plans-amid-lawsuits-and-remote-work-trend/

New CEOs will make changes just like new "old" Disney CEO did and the new Centene CEO did.  

[jack]

47 minutes ago, jrs2 said:

For the record, I was against the dissolution of RCID even though I have a laminated pinup of the governor in my hope chest.

https://www.wesh.com/article/disney-development-florida-desantis/43932626

https://nypost.com/2023/05/18/disney-cancels-plans-to-move-2000-jobs-to-florida/

The Post article kind of lays it out timeline-wise; Chapek makes the plan to move; Disney loses money; Chapek is fired; Iger returns; Iger cost cuts on several fronts, including pulling the plug on the Nona campus.  Good article.

I think it is fair to say that the primary cause was not our governor. But the governor could be a small contributing factor to not relocate. We all talked about this on this sub when it was announced that many of the employees in California did not want to move. 

Regardless, politics ain't beanbag. DeSantis would get all the credit if they moved and get blamed if they canceled. 

[jrs2]

12 minutes ago, jack said:

I think it is fair to say that the primary cause was not our governor. But the governor could be a small contributing factor to not relocate. We all talked about this on this sub when it was announced that many of the employees in California did not want to move. 

Regardless, politics ain't beanbag. DeSantis would get all the credit if they moved and get blamed if they canceled. 

true, but in the article I posted they said that hundreds of Disney employees already moved here.  Disney said they'd give them the option to move back.  How would that play out?

[KJHburg]

1 hour ago, jrs2 said:

true, but in the article I posted they said that hundreds of Disney employees already moved here.  Disney said they'd give them the option to move back.  How would that play out?

My question would be why could not remote work and with the largest Disney parks concentration 20 miles away why should they move back?  Once you get a nice big new house it will be real hard to move back to California shrink your footprint and now with a much higher interest rates.  Some of these probably will stay and Disney will find a way to keep them working even if means carving out a small office for them.   Let's see what happens with this land will Disney sell it back to Tavistock the developer or hold on it for a few more years.   This project was already delayed what 3-4 years so what is a few more in the end.  But 7000 employees are losing their jobs with Disney due to cost cutting.  

As for that overpriced Star Wars hotel could Disney not see the market for that would be very thin?  that has absolutely nothing to do with the Governor or anything else with Florida.  It was just a stupid idea from the get go. 

[Ora]

Even if desantis isn’t the cause of losing 2000 jobs and billions in investment. Is it pro business republicanism to create a feud with your largest employer and economic engine and make doing business in your state hell if you dare speak against their opinion. If republicans can’t run on being pro business what are they going to run on? Attacking trans people? Being anti-woke. That’s cute until you have to win something outside of a primary. 

[prahaboheme]

6 hours ago, shardoon said:

So, disclaimer, I am a conservative with liberal leanings. I'm pro choice, pro 2nd amendment, but do support red flag laws and intense background checks, fiscally conservative. I do not check all the boxes on one side of the ballot. With that being said, I have to balance everything when making a choice. I tend to vote republican, because I have more disagreements with what the Democrat party has become compared to the republicans.... although my patience was tried with Trump, but still would have rather ed him then Biden. 

I was hopeful DeSantis was gonna be less Trump, but this ego fight seems like it's Trump's ego. 

What he should have said was that he disagreed with Disney's position, but supported their right to have the disagreement. End it right there. No reedy creek takeover, lawsuits, stupid press conferences talking about opening prisons on disneys land........dumb. he also tanked his political future. 

With that being said, it is equally pathetic that people are jumping on the political train blaming him for disney pulling out of lake nona. They were hemorrhaging money and were laying people off right and left all over including in precious California. If DeSantis was the governor of California, the left would blame him for that too. Disney originally wanted to come here, but then they needed to tighten their wallet. If they were planning on coming, dirt would have been moving years ago, but it was delay delay and then when covid was over, there was a lot of economic downturn........nothing to do with the fight with DeSantis. Although, it was a great opportunity to make a business decision that they were planning to make regardless and make it about DeSantis.

Even worse, I've heard some on the left blame the star cruiser closing on this too. GTFO with the robotic line of thinking on everything. It's ok to be in the center and have different opinions.....not just the party line. 

Yes, DeSantis is an ass in this and he probably ruined his political fortunes. 

 

While I appreciate  the idea, it’s an apology tour. 

Edited May 20, 2023 by prahaboheme

[shardoon]

6 hours ago, prahaboheme said:

While I appreciate  the idea, it’s an apology tour. 

Ok, you think it's an apology tour....... I would have hoped you would have acknowledged that there is no perfect candidate. Everyone has flaws. Putting DeSantis against Gillium.....especially during COVID......I'll say he was the much better choice despite the warts that came out. Maybe you would have felt the warts of an addiction to drugs was more bearable for Gilium........who knows...... but I'm not gonna call you names or try to cancel you if you feel you supported him. 

[GregoryMCSE]

I just want to throw this in.  Disney has 

On 5/19/2023 at 7:16 PM, Ora said:

Even if desantis isn’t the cause of losing 2000 jobs and billions in investment. Is it pro business republicanism to create a feud with your largest employer and economic engine and make doing business in your state hell if you dare speak against their opinion. If republicans can’t run on being pro business what are they going to run on? Attacking trans people? Being anti-woke. That’s cute until you have to win something outside of a primary. 

Largest employer for sure.  Yet most Disney jobs do not pay a living wage. Disney has underpaid the vast majority of it employees for decades.    As a person born and raised here I resent it.    If this governor wants to tangle with Disney a bit. So be it.  No person or institution should be given Carte  Blanche forever.  Absolute power corrupts absolutely.  Disney needs to be as accountable as any other corporation. 

[F-L-A]

2 hours ago, GregoryMCSE said:

I just want to throw this in.  Disney has 

Largest employer for sure.  Yet most Disney jobs do not pay a living wage. Disney has underpaid the vast majority of it employees for decades.    As a person born and raised here I resent it.    If this governor wants to tangle with Disney a bit. So be it.  No person or institution should be given Carte  Blanche forever.  Absolute power corrupts absolutely.  Disney needs to be as accountable as any other corporation. 

Is he tangling with Disney over its low wage jobs? Or is he trying to get back at them for exercising their free speech and criticizing his policies? Is that what they need to be accountable for? Not agreeing with the governor? Because that's what all of this is really about, and you know it. 

[shardoon]

5 hours ago, F-L-A said:

Is he tangling with Disney over its low wage jobs? Or is he trying to get back at them for exercising their free speech and criticizing his policies? Is that what they need to be accountable for? Not agreeing with the governor? Because that's what all of this is really about, and you know it. 

You are correct, he is tangling with disney specifically because of their opinion. However, Disney did not pull out of Lake Nona because of this, and you know it too.

[jrs2]

7 hours ago, F-L-A said:

Is he tangling with Disney over its low wage jobs? Or is he trying to get back at them for exercising their free speech and criticizing his policies? Is that what they need to be accountable for? Not agreeing with the governor? Because that's what all of this is really about, and you know it. 

You guys keep referencing free speech again and again and retaliation against speech specifically, but in the original article, Bob Chapek himself admitted that aside from speaking out against The Act, that Disney tried to undermine its passage (noone knows to what extent, but he did admit to "efforts"). 

So that's two things now, the first having been the labeling of that Act with the "Don't Say Gay" label, which led the reader to believe this was a continuation of that all too familiar deal involving the military years before with Don't Say Gay, which it has nothing to do with. 

I'm not taking sides, except to say that calling it Don't Say Gay is a deception, and ignoring what Chapek actually stated while only focusing on the speech aspect is pushing a constitutional violation narrative.  Do I think DeSantis retaliated? Of course, but not just for the actual speech itself. And I don't have to prove there was more or what the "more" was on Disney's part because Chapek himself admitted to it. 

So, can we finally take this to the Coffee House? 

[F-L-A]

10 hours ago, shardoon said:

You are correct, he is tangling with disney specifically because of their opinion. However, Disney did not pull out of Lake Nona because of this, and you know it too.

I don't actually. Sure, they had other issues, such as the California cast members not wanting to relocate (and in retrospect, can you blame them?), but this political battle almost certainly played a much larger role than some want to admit. I've seen far too many people suggest that Disney had to cancel the project for financial reasons, which is plainly preposterous. They may be underperforming in certain sectors of the company, but they still have all the money in the world, proven just recently with them coming out and pledging to spend billions on capital expenditures at WDW within the next decade. 

7 hours ago, jrs2 said:

You guys keep referencing free speech again and again and retaliation against speech specifically, but in the original article, Bob Chapek himself admitted that aside from speaking out against The Act, that Disney tried to undermine its passage (noone knows to what extent, but he did admit to "efforts"). 

So that's two things now, the first having been the labeling of that Act with the "Don't Say Gay" label, which led the reader to believe this was a continuation of that all too familiar deal involving the military years before with Don't Say Gay, which it has nothing to do with. 

I'm not taking sides, except to say that calling it Don't Say Gay is a deception, and ignoring what Chapek actually stated while only focusing on the speech aspect is pushing a constitutional violation narrative.  Do I think DeSantis retaliated? Of course, but not just for the actual speech itself. And I don't have to prove there was more or what the "more" was on Disney's part because Chapek himself admitted to it. 

So, can we finally take this to the Coffee House? 

I don't know what Chapek was supposedly referring to, so it's impossible to comment on something so vague. I can only comment on what I see with my own eyes, ie the governor's unconstitutional efforts to censure our state's largest employer through political bullying, which is about as anti-business as one can get. Even if we presume that such actions weren't the main factor in the cancellation of this particular project, without any supporting evidence, one can still reasonably deduct that it's only a matter of time before we see the fallout of such a blatantly anti-business attitude rear its ugly head elsewhere. 

8 hours ago, jrs2 said:

So, can we finally take this to the Coffee House? 

[KJHburg]

and there is this from your local TV news

https://www.fox35orlando.com/news/realtor-disney-employees-prefer-to-stay-in-orlando

Let me know if you hear this land in Lake Nona being sold because my thoughts is this is delayed not cancelled forever.  I heard Tavistock may have an option to buy it back if Disney does not want it but I think it will be occupied by Disney in the future.   When that happens is anyone's guess.  

[jrs2]

2 hours ago, F-L-A said:

I don't actually. Sure, they had other issues, such as the California cast members not wanting to relocate (and in retrospect, can you blame them?), but this political battle almost certainly played a much larger role than some want to admit. I've seen far too many people suggest that Disney had to cancel the project for financial reasons, which is plainly preposterous. They may be underperforming in certain sectors of the company, but they still have all the money in the world, proven just recently with them coming out and pledging to spend billions on capital expenditures at WDW within the next decade. 

I don't know what Chapek was supposedly referring to, so it's impossible to comment on something so vague. I can only comment on what I see with my own eyes, ie the governor's unconstitutional efforts to censure our state's largest employer through political bullying, which is about as anti-business as one can get. Even if we presume that such actions weren't the main factor in the cancellation of this particular project, without any supporting evidence, one can still reasonably deduct that it's only a matter of time before we see the fallout of such a blatantly anti-business attitude rear its ugly head elsewhere. 

Hundreds of Disney employees did actually move here already from LA...but I'm not familiar with what roll out plan Disney had regarding that.  It seems like they wanted their employees already here once the doors opened to the new facilities.  But for Disney to give those already here the option to stay tells me that their statement about their plans isn't final; rather, just a delay...otherwise they'd tell their employees to get back to Orange County CA...wouldn't you think?  I think they'll ask the State for more incentives to offset whatever changes ala RCID may have caused ala shortfalls, etc.

58 minutes ago, KJHburg said:

and there is this from your local TV news

https://www.fox35orlando.com/news/realtor-disney-employees-prefer-to-stay-in-orlando

Let me know if you hear this land in Lake Nona being sold because my thoughts is this is delayed not cancelled forever.  I heard Tavistock may have an option to buy it back if Disney does not want it but I think it will be occupied by Disney in the future.   When that happens is anyone's guess.  

I didn't see your response.  I believe this too...

[Uncommon]

26 minutes ago, jrs2 said:

Hundreds of Disney employees did actually move here already from LA...but I'm not familiar with what roll out plan Disney had regarding that.  It seems like they wanted their employees already here once the doors opened to the new facilities.  But for Disney to give those already here the option to stay tells me that their statement about their plans isn't final; rather, just a delay...otherwise they'd tell their employees to get back to Orange County CA...wouldn't you think?  I think they'll ask the State for more incentives to offset whatever changes ala RCID may have caused ala shortfalls, etc.

I didn't see your response.  I believe this too...

No I don't think they would. I think the optics would look abysmal if they incited employees to move 3,000 miles away, sell and purchase property, and uproot their entire lives, just to say, "jk nvm, you need to move back to Cali and redo everything all over again even though it's our fault we changed our minds." In fact, I think the LEAST they can do is allow those employees to remain in Florida if they so chose while still remaining employed (for now).

Idk if this is a delay but I will say Chapek made some sweeping changes and decisions that clearly haven't worked out and Iger has had to clean up a lot of his messes, so I would wager this Lake Nona thing is more a cancellation than a delay, and Disney's timing in announcing this as a potential answer to DeSantis is a masterstroke; in essence, they get carte blanche for an otherwise horrible-looking about-face, and they also get a villain/scapegoat for what they determined was a bad decision to move those 2,000 jobs in the first place.

Bravo, Disney. They are absolutely whooping Ron's *ss and having a hand in undermining his presidential aspirations. Disney 1, Desantis 0. Actually, at this point, it's more like Disney 7, Ron -3.

[JFW657]

12 hours ago, jrs2 said:

You guys keep referencing free speech again and again and retaliation against speech specifically, but in the original article, Bob Chapek himself admitted that aside from speaking out against The Act, that Disney tried to undermine its passage (noone knows to what extent, but he did admit to "efforts"). 

Big corporations have been doing that since the industrial revolution first created big corporations. 

A couple of examples I can think of....

Big oil/fossil fuel industry has been undermining efforts to combat climate change for some time now.

Ditto the auto industry with regards to increased mileage and safety standards. 

The gun industry and its shill organization/lobbying arm the NRA have been meddling and bribing conservative politicians since who knows when to thwart tighter gun regulations.

The alcohol and big pharma industries keeping weed illegal for the sake of their own profits.

Even if Disney was working to undermine DeSantis, they have every legal right to do so. I'm guessing it falls under the First Amendment and freedom of expression. 

12 hours ago, jrs2 said:

So that's two things now, the first having been the labeling of that Act with the "Don't Say Gay" label, which led the reader to believe this was a continuation of that all too familiar deal involving the military years before with Don't Say Gay, which it has nothing to do with. 

I'm not taking sides, except to say that calling it Don't Say Gay is a deception, and ignoring what Chapek actually stated while only focusing on the speech aspect is pushing a constitutional violation narrative.  Do I think DeSantis retaliated? Of course, but not just for the actual speech itself. And I don't have to prove there was more or what the "more" was on Disney's part because Chapek himself admitted to it. 

So, can we finally take this to the Coffee House? 

Another thing that's been done by special interest groups forever. 

Still no reason for DeSantis to declare war on them and use the government to punish them.

That is something I cannot think of another example of.

If this stands in court, it will set a dangerous precedent, inviting government officials to apply pressure to any company it wants to, for the purpose of supporting an agenda. 

These are scary times we live in. 

[shardoon]

11 hours ago, F-L-A said:

I don't actually. Sure, they had other issues, such as the California cast members not wanting to relocate (and in retrospect, can you blame them?), but this political battle almost certainly played a much larger role than some want to admit. I've seen far too many people suggest that Disney had to cancel the project for financial reasons, which is plainly preposterous. They may be underperforming in certain sectors of the company, but they still have all the money in the world, proven just recently with them coming out and pledging to spend billions on capital expenditures at WDW within the next decade. 

I don't know what Chapek was supposedly referring to, so it's impossible to comment on something so vague. I can only comment on what I see with my own eyes, ie the governor's unconstitutional efforts to censure our state's largest employer through political bullying, which is about as anti-business as one can get. Even if we presume that such actions weren't the main factor in the cancellation of this particular project, without any supporting evidence, one can still reasonably deduct that it's only a matter of time before we see the fallout of such a blatantly anti-business attitude rear its ugly head elsewhere. 

Spending billions on their cash cow is necessary to keep the cash cow going and competitive with universal.  This move here did not fall under a necessary expense......at this time. If disney had all this money, they wouldnt have just fired thousands. 

So please, investing in WDW to keep it competitive is completely apples to oranges as necessary business expense. I'm actually quite surprised that you think this is a equal comparison. 

[HankStrong]

Can this please go to one of the 85 political threads in the coffee house instead of here?

[jrs2]

12 hours ago, Uncommon said:

No I don't think they would. I think the optics would look abysmal if they incited employees to move 3,000 miles away, sell and purchase property, and uproot their entire lives, just to say, "jk nvm, you need to move back to Cali and redo everything all over again even though it's our fault we changed our minds." In fact, I think the LEAST they can do is allow those employees to remain in Florida if they so chose while still remaining employed (for now).

Idk if this is a delay but I will say Chapek made some sweeping changes and decisions that clearly haven't worked out and Iger has had to clean up a lot of his messes, so I would wager this Lake Nona thing is more a cancellation than a delay, and Disney's timing in announcing this as a potential answer to DeSantis is a masterstroke; in essence, they get carte blanche for an otherwise horrible-looking about-face, and they also get a villain/scapegoat for what they determined was a bad decision to move those 2,000 jobs in the first place.

Bravo, Disney. They are absolutely whooping Ron's *ss and having a hand in undermining his presidential aspirations. Disney 1, Desantis 0. Actually, at this point, it's more like Disney 7, Ron -3.

If I was Disney, I'd blame DeSantis for the about face.  If I was their consultant that's what I would tell them to do.

It's those hundreds of employees that already moved here that I'm wondering about.  I mean they wanted to move here for a reason, i.e., to capitalize off of Florida's tax structure compared to CA's, to the point where they were willing to develop a $1B campus (with $538M tax incentive from Florida over 19 years, that is).

I'm thinking, since their original plan was to lease other buildings in the meantime, that's what they'll continue to do with these employees b/c Disney is still making out by having them here vs CA.  

But as far as the other, ala whooping his butt, depends how you look at it, because as long as Brightline is planning the Tampa leg, they will focus on how Disney pulled the plug on the Diz Springs station b/c of Universal and the Sunshine Corridor re-routing.  It may not make national news, but DeSantis, if he makes a presidential run, can throw that out there which will make Disney look like the Disney from Southpark with the Chairman of the Board evil Mickey.  If I was a consultant for Dee Santis, that's what I would harp on when the subject of Disney came up, and I would say that their response affected not only Brightline, but also the Democrat contingent that went to DC for the Sunshine Corridor that represents their host County and City of Orlando.  I would harp on that and deflect.

If this was football, as above, I'm not sure that's what the score would be b/c at the end of the day, RCID did get dissolved and Disney also pulled out of the Brightline station to everyone's dismay, including Democrats.  

Personally, I just wish this would end...get the BL station...give Iger a complimentary reach-around, make nice, and get back to business as usual.

[jrs2]

11 hours ago, JFW657 said:

Big corporations have been doing that since the industrial revolution first created big corporations. 

A couple of examples I can think of....

Big oil/fossil fuel industry has been undermining efforts to combat climate change for some time now.

Ditto the auto industry with regards to increased mileage and safety standards. 

The gun industry and its shill organization/lobbying arm the NRA have been meddling and bribing conservative politicians since who knows when to thwart tighter gun regulations.

The alcohol and big pharma industries keeping weed illegal for the sake of their own profits.

Even if Disney was working to undermine DeSantis, they have every legal right to do so. I'm guessing it falls under the First Amendment and freedom of expression. 

Another thing that's been done by special interest groups forever. 

Still no reason for DeSantis to declare war on them and use the government to punish them.

That is something I cannot think of another example of.

If this stands in court, it will set a dangerous precedent, inviting government officials to apply pressure to any company it wants to, for the purpose of supporting an agenda. 

These are scary times we live in. 

So you're absolutely right about lobbyists.  That's what I think Disney was doing...doing the same ole to get their way (behind closed doors)...like everyone else does...

I mean, the RCID thing, I am sure there is a story about that that transcends even DeSantis' tenure; there has to be... I personally did not agree with its dissolution or retooling.  I had colleagues and professors doing work for RCID back in the original Lion King days (which is when I first learned of it as an entity). 

When Scott took over and nixed Obama-rail, he put Sunrail on the "chopping block" or "review block." He passed it but I wonder if the only reason he did was b/c he was expecting a payout and got it in exchange.  I wonder if Dee Santis was trying to do the same thing with RCID but Diz said no way, so he followed thru anyway.

Every time these guys do stuff it's like money is almost always involved.  I think ideology is just a vehicle to get to the money.  Wasn't there a movie or episode of Star Trek where this big bru ha ha was going on and at the end of the day it was just a cash grab? Anyway, I don't trust any of these guys.

Now I gotta strap on a Jimmie when I go out next week...sux, or drive to GA...

2 hours ago, HankStrong said:

Can this please go to one of the 85 political threads in the coffee house instead of here?

yes.  I think we flushed everything out that could get flushed out on this...except for maybe Bud Light's involvement with all this.  LOL.