Waterside District

[BFG]

I'll admit, I like the entertainment complex, but it sounds like another revamp of the last two Watersides (the original and the one from the early-2000s). If they can find a way to keep it fresh and running for more than a decade then it could have potential.

I really like the concept of televised performances though.

[urbanlife]

The Harvey Lindsay one and the Cordish one are about the only two realistic proposal, and the Harvey Lindsay one I think is only mostly possible. A combination of both of these two would be really nice.

Just reading over what everyone else has read, I think the Cordish one has the best chance, and while I personally hate national chain restuarants, I do think it would do well in Norfolk and suburbia people love chain restuarants, so I can see that playing into a huge draw from outside of Norfolk.

Honestly, I would of figured Cordish for wanting to talk to VaBeach with their oceanfront sites they have as well as areas around the TC, I could see their projects being very attractive to VaBeach people.

[vdogg]

The Harvey lindsey proposal must be part of this equation. We simply cannot pass up expanded corporate presence and a company moving its regional headquarters downtown. Really not feeling these other proposals. I think watersides days as an entertainment venue have passed. It's been tried already, and it failed.

[carolinaboy]

I do not understand either of the new proposals. Why would you want to re-do what has already failed? Neither proposal is an investment in downtown. Why would the city want the 12 new restaurants that would compete with MacArthur? It's time to move on from this "entertainment destination" idea for the waterfront.

Go with the one that (possibly) builds 2 new hotels, an office building, the Conference Center, and moves a new corporation to downtown. I guarantee you the Conference Center would be much more significant to Norfolk than a fancier Waterside.

[brikkman]

I do not understand either of the new proposals. Why would you want to re-do what has already failed? Neither proposal is an investment in downtown. Why would the city want the 12 new restaurants that would compete with MacArthur? It's time to move on from this "entertainment destination" idea for the waterfront.

Go with the one that (possibly) builds 2 new hotels, an office building, the Conference Center, and moves a new corporation to downtown. I guarantee you the Conference Center would be much more significant to Norfolk than a fancier Waterside.

and I'm thinking why not?

What I think most of us are forgetting is the fact that what is currently there is not by design. I tend to stay to this thought processes. For years, granby street has been critized mostly in part due to its non-working parts. In a dt that is so small, you must consider this concept when evaluting what the problem truly is (IMO). Unlike bigger cities, you can roll the dices in various parts of the city, neither will make or break the city, but doing singular things in a small DT has such a great impact on itself as a whole.

lets start with TPP. first Nauticus (sp?), has always been a home museum. No one will travel on their own to see nauticus unless you are a part of that culture. Even if you do, its not something you frequent. What you currently notice is that lots of field trips go to that place, but not every day people unless they are holding entertainment events. Its a good place, necessary for the area, but its not an aquirium where things change and could possibly bring fresh people every month. TPP is just what it is, a park. Thus it is only good for part of the year as a seasonal place and good for local residents which is fairly small. Despite what many have thought about waterside in the past ten years, its former self was actually viable and purposeful for city after the 80s crazy went away. Why? IMO, it served a purpose and although Joes and Outback may have been a little off the path, as a whole, it did work for the city. The main street in DT is granby st right? What is it exactly? Its a mix of things that do not work with the overall complexity of DT because of its size. You have a fed building, a court, then bars that are struggling to make it, practically no retail. THAT IS GRANBY. If you call that entertainment, I guess that is were we have the issue, because although we have scope, Virginia stage theater and things like that, its not enough to support a weekly or weekend style. That actually makes for a very boring DT which I believe DT residents really want. Salaries aren't stella, especially for young folk, so you have to appeal to them some way to be interested in being here. Convention centers on prime real estate "ain't" going to cut it in that respect. Will it do the little things like generate a tax follow, blah blah blah, certainly, but I think you damage Norfolk's potential long term by lack there of. Entertainment is not the number one thing, but its a high priority in a city this small with a struggling economy. And although i believe a convention center maybe needed, without considering these things, makes places like vb and chesapeake much more attractive. They come to the convention and once its over, they stay in their room because everything else is closed at 6pm? Why not just do that in vb and chesapeake for cheaper? Its a much better return on investment unless you can provide them things the other cities can not. What's the difference of having the convention on the synder lot? or the old westin proposed lot? At the end of the day, you will still have a dead zone 3 seasons out the year.

Like someone said before, not keeping it fresh was the issue, coupled with a none changing building presents issues. Its tons of free thigns the city could have done to keep it 80s like, b ut they backed out from that concept while other cities built up and took peoples interest other places. Remember, this isn't the 70s and 80s where just having something means something. You have to plan with great impact now that other cities have developed a backbone and a base. A convention center at waterside will not bring neighorboring citizens back to Norfolk.

Add one more thing:

When I say entertainment, I do not mean bars. I mean more hip places for people to do that provides a clean mix of people of all ages. After I thought about my post, I didn't want people to get the impression I mean BARS, but we are talking urban bowling, restaruants, cafe's, cinema cafe's, bars too, etc....Themed entertainment.

Edited January 23, 2012 by brikkman

[urbanlife]

Which brikkman is why I have always thought the city should turn the area between the art museum and Brambleton into an "arts district" and have it be a place that is filled with art galleries, bars, restuarants, cafes, maybe an indie theater that doesn't compete with the Naro, as well as urban style loft apartment and condo buildings, and maybe even some creative office space for different types of businesses.

That would make so much more sense for the city as well because it is something that every other city is doing.

I do think the convention center is needed, but I also think that just putting in a convention center at Waterside isn't going to fix any overall problems. The city is at a point where it needs a drastic, this will change everything about the city, bold kind of move and it needs to be something that is in line with the light rail and new Amtrak station. The pieces of the puzzle are all their but the city lacks the leadership and determination to make it happen.

[carolinaboy]

Roger that brikkman. I completely understand your position.

But why couldn't MacArthur take the lead and become the "entertainment" spot that everyone wants Waterside v3.0 to be? In my simple mind it just does not make sense to have 2 large retail/entertainment venues (competing with each other btw) in what you have aptly described as a "small downtown".

The Conference Center, which I would describe from the released rendering, could become the first truly "iconic" structure in DT. The additional hotel(s), office building and 350+/- corporate employees working downtown would be a tremendous positive in DT. SOme of those corporate employees may even rent an apartment or buy a home DT or in the vicinity.

Nothing against whatever becomes of Waterside......has to be an improvement.....I just don't see why the same thing that has failed would succeed this time.

No way a Conf Center should go on the Snyder Lot. That is a prime spot now for a very urban (read tall) TOD.

Just my thoughts.

[brikkman]

Roger that brikkman. I completely understand your position.

But why couldn't MacArthur take the lead and become the "entertainment" spot that everyone wants Waterside v3.0 to be? In my simple mind it just does not make sense to have 2 large retail/entertainment venues (competing with each other btw) in what you have aptly described as a "small downtown".

The Conference Center, which I would describe from the released rendering, could become the first truly "iconic" structure in DT. The additional hotel(s), office building and 350+/- corporate employees working downtown would be a tremendous positive in DT. SOme of those corporate employees may even rent an apartment or buy a home DT or in the vicinity.

Nothing against whatever becomes of Waterside......has to be an improvement.....I just don't see why the same thing that has failed would succeed this time.

No way a Conf Center should go on the Snyder Lot. That is a prime spot now for a very urban (read tall) TOD.

Just my thoughts.

IMO, it seems like they cornered opportunities with MacArthur Center. They have that one lot, which in a whole, wouldn't do the job of bringing people back, but would be an improvement. Same thing failed...well you have to understand why it failed. Waterside was a craze, a better craze for all it was back in the 80s. The 757 is so different than it was in the 80s. In the 80s, Norfolk was the only place anyone wanted to be when you talked entertainment. If you were not fishing or watned to do something on the water, entertainment started and ended with waterside. It was unique, new, and very much different. what happen over the years was as waterside went down in interest, other cities built up in interest, taking from Norfolk's base. In other words, you could building anything for the public in the 80s and get a great turn out because that was how much of a sap the 757/804 was then. If you built a parking deck for waterside in the 80s, it was well justified and worked fine because were else would you and your family going to hang out at. You have to remember, there was no Mt.Trashmore, TC, PTC, greenbrier mall, etc.. all of those you know now where people gather. Also, live music/entertainment is what made waterside friendly in the first place. It is where my mom use to take me all the time. We would just hang out for the atmosphere and it was an all day affair for us because we walked. Now, when you look at your options, there is soo many other things you can do. Oceanfront being a big one now during the nice seasons. Norfolk reinvented itself in part with business and look, but did nothing for waterside as a destination. They completely forgot about it. Bars were good at waterside, at least it kept it from the rest of the people in DT, but being in DT. The crap you heard it the news was an exgarration at best, blown out of porpotion. although I do not think it was better than waterside 80s, it did the city and the people some justice in its purpose. So it really wouldn't be reinventing, but rather establishing something that was never there. We have to stop looking at it as a p;lace and look at as a destination that people of all interest come to.

The first thing you have to do is evalute is it worth paying parking? If it does, move on from there. Again, a hotel, conference and all of that is great, however, I think long term impact would not do Norfolk any justice considering what they plan to do with the rest of the open spaces.

this is what I hopefor:

A multi-level destination that supports all groups.

I see an urban bowling alley with 10 to 20 lanes with accompany bars, video games setup, etc..

I see a small skating ring that butts right up to conference hall/panio small bar

I see a 3 screen cafe cenima

An observation tower/niddle with resturant at the top for the yuppies

i see a marina resturant and open deck/area for entertainment./small stage with lights

I see a small open area that can be filled with open/live entertainment where things can be moved in and out for season, events, etc...

I see clear glass pain windows overlooking tpp that are field with speciality shops and restaraunts, dance studio,etc...

I see a direct ferry/water taxi port on the backside.

I see a open,direct connection to the sheraton hotel.

joes/outback now become relevant again.

You have now hit every noted needed to make it a destination.

On top of all of this, make its internal parts configurable for changes in the future. One part open, one part enclosed.

Which brikkman is why I have always thought the city should turn the area between the art museum and Brambleton into an "arts district" and have it be a place that is filled with art galleries, bars, restuarants, cafes, maybe an indie theater that doesn't compete with the Naro, as well as urban style loft apartment and condo buildings, and maybe even some creative office space for different types of businesses.

That would make so much more sense for the city as well because it is something that every other city is doing.

I do think the convention center is needed, but I also think that just putting in a convention center at Waterside isn't going to fix any overall problems. The city is at a point where it needs a drastic, this will change everything about the city, bold kind of move and it needs to be something that is in line with the light rail and new Amtrak station. The pieces of the puzzle are all their but the city lacks the leadership and determination to make it happen.

You always have great ideas, I like that too.

and I agree with the drastic changes.

[Oaktowntwinz]

Norfolk should be very cautious in its dealings with Cordish. While their representative mentioned successes in Kansas City & Louisville, they omitted their failures. They made

lofty promises to Richmond when they competed for the contract to redevelop the hydroelectric plant on the canal. Years have passed and the plant remains empty. Cordish insisted they would make it happen until they eventually "disappeared" from the media and Richmond.

[vdogg]

Norfolk should be very cautious in its dealings with Cordish. While their representative mentioned successes in Kansas City & Louisville, they omitted their failures. They made

lofty promises to Richmond when they competed for the contract to redevelop the hydroelectric plant on the canal. Years have passed and the plant remains empty. Cordish insisted they would make it happen until they eventually "disappeared" from the media and Richmond.

Also, isn't cordish the one that did the powerplant in Hampton? Not too impressive of a development. It looked tacky and suburban when it was supposed to be mixed use and urban. We have to be careful with that one. And the "beach music" idea is just horrible. How much more hokey can you get? We need something grand and impressive at the entrance to DT Norfolk. Something that says you've arrived in a city, not some sleepy beach town. We need something that is likely to spur more development outside the immediate boundaries of the project and has mass appeal. I would be amenable to a compromise development between the convention center idea and the cordish development, but I think the Convention center one still takes precedent.

[urbanlife]

Also, isn't cordish the one that did the powerplant in Hampton? Not too impressive of a development. It looked tacky and suburban when it was supposed to be mixed use and urban. We have to be careful with that one. And the "beach music" idea is just horrible. How much more hokey can you get? We need something grand and impressive at the entrance to DT Norfolk. Something that says you've arrived in a city, not some sleepy beach town. We need something that is likely to spur more development outside the immediate boundaries of the project and has mass appeal. I would be amenable to a compromise development between the convention center idea and the cordish development, but I think the Convention center one still takes precedent.

Yeah, that is why I said Cordish would be attractive to people in VaBeach, it would be tacky, full of chains, and make suburban people happy....though that company would be more suited for developments in VaBeach than Norfolk.

[vdogg]

Kinda hard to post links on my phone, but just saw a proposal for a 22,000 seat nba arena. Check it out on the pilot.

[varider]

Kinda hard to post links on my phone, but just saw a proposal for a 22,000 seat nba arena. Check it out on the pilot.

What's the realistic likelihood that they build an NBA arena at waterside though? that would seriously be so cool.

[urbanlife]

Well the arena would require getting hold of the Sheraton Hotel as well, plus the rendering for the "multi use" tower just looks rediculous.

The rendering for the Cordish development just looks like Waterside with a fresh coat of paint and some new signs posted up all over it with some sort of non use steel frame tower rising up from the current Waterside.

[vdogg]

You kind of surprised me with your opinion on the arena. It looks like a fairly modern and dare I say bold design to me. Norfolk needs something to push the envelope. Couldn't agree more on the cordish development though, it looks like they weren't even trying. One thing, and I know many of you may disagree with me, but if we build the arena we should demolish scope and reclaim that land for office development. I honestly feel that the scope is dated and has outlived its usefulness.

[vdogg]

Apparently the beach rejected this idea when if was proposed for the oceanfront last year, which I think was short sighted. Apparently this is supposed to be totally privately funded.

http://www.dailypress.com/sports/dp-spt-arena-vabeach-reject-tuesday,0,4451201.story

The Norfolk businessman leading the push to build a privately-funded, 22,000-seat arena near the Virginia Beach oceanfront will move forward despite a rejection letter from the city manager's office Tuesday.

"It depends on the relationship with the city of Virginia Beach," said David Tollaksen, president and founder of Norfolk-based development firm Drakkar America. "Virginia Beach wasn't the only place we were looking to put this arena."

The Beach's loss might just be Norfolk's gain. I really hope this happens, might teach our ostrich like city council to take a bit more initiative in the future.

[vdogg]

On drakkars website, they have an on the boards project called "Harbor Center Arena" in Virginia. It doesn't give a specific city but it looks like it's one in the same. It give an interior view of the project.

[ronsmytheiii]

On drakkars website, they have an on the boards project called "Harbor Center Arena" in Virginia. It doesn't give a specific city but it looks like it's one in the same. It give an interior view of the project.

I like the arena idea, but the engineer in me has serious doubts about building a huge arena on reclaimed land. WIll need a lot of engineering work and wont be cheap. Still like the Convention center idea, but DO NOT DEMOLISH SELDEN. Period. There are only two arcades in Virginia, it would be a travesty to demolish it. Just build the other hotel at the empty lot next to MacArthur, and leave retail space for a new anchor.

Edited January 25, 2012 by ronsmytheiii

[vdogg]

I like the arena idea, but the engineer in me has serious doubts about building a huge arena on reclaimed land. WIll need a lot of engineering work and wont be cheap. Still like the Convention center idea, but DO NOT DEMOLISH SELDEN. Period. There are only two arcades in Virginia, it would be a travesty to demolish it. Just build the other hotel at the empty lot next to MacArthur, and leave retail space for a new anchor.

Well, I just got done watching the informal session online. Most of the questions posed from council were about the Harvey lindsey proposal. While they aren't making any decisions right now that definitely seemed to generate the most interest. If they pass up the arena for this particular area, so be it, but I think it would be stupid to dismiss it out of hand. They have experience with a similar arena in kansas city, which is a similar size market. It is the fifth busiest in the nation. These folks have $350 million in private cash already set aside for development of this project. To pass up that amount of unsolicited private money for development downtown is unfathomable. Perhaps the HL proposal is the best fit for that location downtown, but if so I hope they keep in mind finding another place for the arena, perhaps next to Harbor park on the empty lots over there.

[varider]

Can we please please please get this arena built? i'm not so sure waterside is the best place to put it but why cant drakkar just build it next to harbor park or put it in st pauls quadrant or cedar grove or smoething? the best place IMO would be next to harbor park. build parking decks around it and most could just take raill.

[BFG]

I found it incredibly short-sighted of VB to turn down a privately-funded arena, and still scratch my head over that decision. However, I know that was one of their future plans for expanding near Witchduck.

As for Norfolk, I secretly hoped an arena would be on the list of proposals, but I think the space is too small. I agree Harbor Park is a better location, but if a developer is offering the dough, then it would be ridiculous to turn it down, no matter where it goes. I do like that on the Pilot poll, the arena has the highest percentage of votes.

I don't think the arena is DOA as the council member suggests, it just shouldn't go there.

"Waterside Live" sounds nice, but looks kinda cheesy lol.

Edited January 25, 2012 by BFG

[mistermetaj]

I favor the conference center, hotels, and office building proposal by far. It would do the most to transform downtown, bring jobs downtown, and add needed conference space and office density to the area. The part about the Selden Arcade has to change though. They really can't take down the arcade. Norfolk has to maintain some part of its history, and losing the Arcade would be a travesty.

I would hope the Beach Music idea was the proposal that was "dead on arrival." With Va Beach next door and having an actual beach, no one will travel for the summer to go to a "beach music" venue when there are free open stages all over the oceanfront.

The stadium idea sounds great, but a) I guarantee Norfolk won't go with it, so don't hold your breath or even try to rationalize it possibly happening. b) I'm not sure the developer is really not that serious considering we don't have a need for it or a team that could draw that kind of crowd. It sounds nice, but unfortunately not feasible. If an NBA was looking to move then maybe, but right now I don't see it. Not to mention, Vegas is getting the next sports team anyway. Also, Norfolk Scope should be landmarked. It is an architectural gem, and should be celebrated. If a new stadium is to come to Norfolk, Scope should be made into some sort of museum.

The Cordish proposal is the most likely choice even though it makes me want to . It is essentially Waterside 2.0. We won't get progress, we won't get change or a dynamic solution. We'll get another concentration of retail and restaurants in a single location, leaving the rest of the city out. You don't have to look past this quote from Burfoot to see which proposal the city is going to choose (btw, I find myself disagreeing with all of Burfoot's decisions lately, from SPQ to this):

Burfoot said that the Cordish development meets all of the goals of the city – retaining the Waterside building, keeping the space open to the public and relieving the city of the financial burden of Waterside by turning it over to a private developer.

“But we don’t know what the numbers are,” he said. “Until we know the numbers, we don’t know if it will work.

Edited January 25, 2012 by mistermetaj

[vdogg]

Just read the updated article, I agree that cordish now appears the most likely. It's enough to make you want to give up, this city is just so small minded. And they wonder why there is a brain drain and young people don't want to stay here.

[brikkman]

Unimpressed with all of it. Demo-ing waterside is a must. I can tell you right now, if you do not do that, it will fail, quicker than 15 years. People are disgusted with waterside, rightfully so. Its one of the rare places that I go to say, there is a stinch, the overhead decorum reeks, its not big enough, dated, drafty, down right unimpressive as a venue. Arena? I guess so, but not at waterside. The problem I have with the arena idea is that they have not packed scope. They JUST got around to using the scope for more than convention meetings on the lower floor as recent as a couple of years ago. Most of the business went to NON-TAX paying ODU constant center. It wasn't big enough is what people said in the past, look at what odu is attracting, that does not require the big arena in the world, however, they have a constant packed schedule, Norfolk failed scope in that area big time. So what encourages people to believe that it would work. I guess the difference is, it would be run and managed by private funds vs the gov. right? If that is the case, build it next to harbor park, cedar grove, Fort Norfolk, DT Norfolk plaza, even get rid of scope.

I really hope they drop this convention center thing at waterside, that idea actually burns me up.

I'm not having a good feeling about this, especially after seeing "more consultants".

[mistermetaj]

Unimpressed with all of it. Demo-ing waterside is a must. I can tell you right now, if you do not do that, it will fail, quicker than 15 years. People are disgusted with waterside, rightfully so. Its one of the rare places that I go to say, there is a stinch, the overhead decorum reeks, its not big enough, dated, drafty, down right unimpressive as a venue. Arena? I guess so, but not at waterside. The problem I have with the arena idea is that they have not packed scope. They JUST got around to using the scope for more than convention meetings on the lower floor as recent as a couple of years ago. Most of the business went to NON-TAX paying ODU constant center. It wasn't big enough is what people said in the past, look at what odu is attracting, that does not require the big arena in the world, however, they have a constant packed schedule, Norfolk failed scope in that area big time. So what encourages people to believe that it would work. I guess the difference is, it would be run and managed by private funds vs the gov. right? If that is the case, build it next to harbor park, cedar grove, Fort Norfolk, DT Norfolk plaza, even get rid of scope.

I really hope they drop this convention center thing at waterside, that idea actually burns me up.

I'm not having a good feeling about this, especially after seeing "more consultants".

What really bugs me is the fact that everything Norfolk does seems to need a consultant. I mean, have some guts. Why have a planning team if you are going to spend hundreds of thousands of dollars on outside "consultants". Not to mention, the majority of the "consultants" poll the community for their input, and what does the "community" downtown want...family oriented entertainment. So they tell Norfolk to keep Waterside, even though these consultants don't live in the area, don't poll the AREA (Hampton Roads) and don't actually see what is needed.

So now Burfoot had decided it's Norfolk's goal to keep Waterside, yet the city itself doesn't want any stake in it and wants to dump it off on a developer...Great idea! Obviously the city has a strong belief in Waterside's success, so much that they want nothing to do with it.

I hope Fraim has a stronger vision for Norfolk than a guy like Burfoot does. That guy, his attitude, his views, and his bow ties really annoy me. He is so small city minded and really doesn't believe in progress it seems.

Edited January 25, 2012 by mistermetaj