St. Paul's Quadrant (Phase 2-Under Construction)

[mistermetaj]

All I can say is that I will be really disappointed if the area consists of a parking lot or single family homes. I thought I had read something about the city needing to eliminate some parking to qualify for federal funding for the light rail. I don't really think the city has an obligation whatsover to provide low income housing that close to downtown. I'd love to live downtown but I can't afford it...

The city needs to extend a block structure over there and take bids from developers. Right around McArthur should be an extension of the business district consisting of office towers with ground level big box retailers. Further out towards Tidewater and Brambleton would be good for a mix of economical rental property and townhomes.

I completely agree. First off, no companies would want their offices right by low income or federal housing. Second of all, no middle or upper class families will want to live right by low income or federal housing. Third, no one wants to go to parks that are surrounded by low income and federal housing. If it is going to be an extension of downtown, then it needs to be a true extension. I like the community's involvement in ideas for types of shops and amenities they want out of a development, but I do not want the community's input in the type of people they want living in a development. That needs to be decided on what is best for Norfolk. There is a place for low income and federal housing, however the downtown core is not the place. Norfolk better think long and hard before single family homes and federal housing are incorporated into that area.

Edited October 5, 2007 by mistermetaj

[brikkman]

Free housing residents do not get a choice if you ask me. I think they deserve to be relocated properly but definitely not decide what is to be done with the area.

My thoughts:

• Tear it down
  
• Relocate the resident
  
• raise the land a few feet
  
• Construct 1/2 pure entertainment district, 1/4 businesses, 1/4 mixed income
  

Leave the other mixed income or single family to across brambleton....That way, everyone gets what they want. The upputies get reasonable location to DT with vibrant distrist and urban feel.

Edited October 5, 2007 by brikkman

[vdogg]

Before I was getting a bit impatient about things. Now I think we need to slow waaaaay down. Broad Creek? Are you kidding me? This is not a suburb. If Norfolk is intent on developing the rest of it's availiable land downtown into suburban housing then they might as well just crown Va. Beach as the regions urban center. I can see a day when the Pembroke area develops into a true CBD while Norfolks DT chokes on a ring of suburban housing and surface lots . City Council needs to be real careful about how it proceeds with this. They need to think far into the future and use a little common sense and logic for once. A freaking parking lot? Unbelieveable . How they can seriously complain about lack of space DT and seriously consider this baffles me. I may just have to go to this thing tonight. I'm anxious to get a visual on what they're actually planning.

[vdogg]

Is this open to non Norfolk residents? If so, i'm there.

[vtfan18]

I think it needs to be a mix of residential and business high density. Man any other city would die to have this land to develop. Norfolk has a chance to do something with this land but i feel we will all be disappointed with the outcome. City council has absolutely no clue.

fo sho'...Broad Creek in my estimation was a disaster. The development was nice b/c it spruced up the area but the concept of mixed income doesn't fly with the masses and it takes the masses to embrace something like this for it to work. Not to say it can't work but Hampton Roads is not an area where people are exactly open minded and forward thinking. Something like this may have worked in San Fran but not here. So if they think they can put another Broad Creek in downtown, they are completely blind. From what I've already seen of the tentative plans...I can tell you I'm already disappointed.

Edited October 5, 2007 by vtfan18

[rusthebuss]

I'm not getting my hopes up so i don't get disappointed. They should wait till LR gets started before they start building this

[scm]

And a park really isn't going to happen, at least not on the scale scm envisions.

Well, sometime, Norfolk is going to have to address the woeful lack of park acreage. Currently, it ranks next to last in the HR MSA in acreage per 1,000 residents -- 3.61/1000 (only P'mouth is lower at 1.84).

Peer competitor cities rank much higher -- Charlotte, 27.0, Raleigh 35.6, Columbus 18.0, Indianapolis, 14.2, Austin, 38.5. There are no city parks to speak of south of Little Creek Road, and only Town Point south of Princess Anne. All of this housing density going into downtown raises the demand for open space, and this is the largest space the city is going to get their hands on in the forseeable future (except for Bay Oaks -- another potential park N. of Little Creek Road!). I'm not talking about the whole thing -- maybe only 15-20 acres?

[Case]

I would like to think that there is a balance that can be achieved by having a mixed-income residential development in the Quadrant out of respect to the residents in the public housing units while continuing the expansion of downtown, however, I see that having any low income housing in that area will stifle it's growth. Why stop the boom now when it has so much momentum? Let's keep the property values rising, I say. If they're going to provide low-income housing for the residents in the Quadrant, after uprooting them, they should provide it further away from downtown.

I am quite torn on this issue. there is enough land in the St. Paul's Quadrant to build an Atlantic Station class development with housing, office space and retail. An ambitious project like that could truly redefine downtown Norfolk. But what affect will that have on the current residents of St. Pauls and the rest of Norfolk. NIMBY has already been rearing its head in other Norfolk neighborhoods regarding any relocation of current Tidewater Garden residents. This can (will) be a pubic relations nightmare. This scenario has played out extensively in other cities including NY and ATL with gut wenching stories of senior citizens (the forgotten Project residents) being up rooted from there homes. Gentrification has become a four letter word in some circles. It also doesn't help that there is already an affordable housing shortage in this region.

I predict that the city will promote a plan that includes housing for the longer term residents and elderly on this property while attempting to relocate/disperse the others.

[vdogg]

Snooooorrreee. The meeting started 30 minutes late and when it began it was unremarkable. Goody Clancy was still showing water colored renderings of stuff they've designed for other cities and presented no new renderings for the Norfolk area. Daun Hester spoke and said that this is the beginning (If this is the beginning, then what was last year?) and said that nothing has been decided or determined. The focus was all on tidewater gardens and what happens to it. This is where the single family homes talk comes up. The plan is basically the exact same as last year except the single family homes overlay has shrunk to only include the tidewater gardens area. The whole thing is a sham. Daun Hester said to "dream" and that's exactly what this is, a dream. No way someone in section 8 housing is going to upgrade to a Va. Beach style home unless there is a significant change in their life circumstances. That said, this is what they all want and the consultants are basically paying lipservice to that desire. I didn't stay for them to break down into committees, it was obvious early on that there would be nothing of substance. The asst. city manager said the plan will take 10-15 years to implement in its entirety. A lot will change in 10-15 years. This was basically a feel good meeting where everyone is given crayons and paper to draw on to make them "think" that they're involved in the process.

[cpeakesqr]

The plan is basically the exact same as last year except the single family homes overlay has shrunk to only include the tidewater gardens area.

Isn't that a very large portion if not most of the quadrant? So basically the city is putting on a show for the residents, who in the end will be given vouchers and told to scram?

[vdogg]

Isn't that a very large portion if not most of the quadrant? So basically the city is putting on a show for the residents, who in the end will be given vouchers and told to scram?

That's my take on it. The nearby St. Pauls church had a large showing there and their influence on the proceedings was noticeable. Basically, they want to see that the community that is there currently gets most of the benefits, however I don't see how that's possible when you're dealing with section 8 housing. At some point in time ideas have to meet up with reality.

[urbanlife]

it has always pissed me off how they treat section 8 housing over there. Here in Portland, no one complains about that...actually it is expected to have low income housing developments here for so many high income housing is built if you wish to have a tax break from the government. Maybe people are too naive here, but race and income levels isn't that big of a deal.

I am starting to think nothing will really come of all this, that 10 years from now they will be still saying "this is the beginning." Norfolk has a real shot at becoming the true core for the region again, it makes no sense to throw that away. I do agree that this is also the perfect site for a large park, some place all the income level housing can intergrate. Then only be mere blocks from a busy extension of downtown. Seriously, this all should look like the Pearl district here in Portland. It should be an extension of downtown.

Also, the park and ride idea is just stupid...what are they trying to say, downtown Norfolk is just a point where people can commute out of? Seriously, no park and ride should be in any downtown ever.

[rusthebuss]

Snooooorrreee. The meeting started 30 minutes late and when it began it was unremarkable. Goody Clancy was still showing water colored renderings of stuff they've designed for other cities and presented no new renderings for the Norfolk area. Daun Hester spoke and said that this is the beginning (If this is the beginning, then what was last year?) and said that nothing has been decided or determined. The focus was all on tidewater gardens and what happens to it. This is where the single family homes talk comes up. The plan is basically the exact same as last year except the single family homes overlay has shrunk to only include the tidewater gardens area. The whole thing is a sham. Daun Hester said to "dream" and that's exactly what this is, a dream. No way someone in section 8 housing is going to upgrade to a Va. Beach style home unless there is a significant change in their life circumstances. That said, this is what they all want and the consultants are basically paying lipservice to that desire. I didn't stay for them to break down into committees, it was obvious early on that there would be nothing of substance. The asst. city manager said the plan will take 10-15 years to implement in its entirety. A lot will change in 10-15 years. This was basically a feel good meeting where everyone is given crayons and paper to draw on to make them "think" that they're involved in the process.

I think its time to find new leadership with real vision. Are these idiots in council now not see the potential for this area??????? This is a make or break decision for this cities future. I wish I had the time to run for council!

[New England Transplant]

I think these guys are pretty savvy and doing some things for "show" and some things to really help. I do not believe that they are going to blow this. They clearly recognize the importance of this area and are very invested in making the most return on their investment. The only reason they'd put a park n ride in there would be to temporarily utilize the land while a larger project took shape. There are definitely things to complain about w/regards to city council, but really, look at the overall progress that has made in less than 8 years. It has been very impressive and all indicators are that this is a positive trend that will continue. Ray Gindroz and others integrally involved with urban planning and new urbanism are not going to sit by the sidelines and let a few people blow what they've all been working towards. That, at least, is my opinion.

[rusthebuss]

I think these guys are pretty savvy and doing some things for "show" and some things to really help. I do not believe that they are going to blow this. They clearly recognize the importance of this area and are very invested in making the most return on their investment. The only reason they'd put a park n ride in there would be to temporarily utilize the land while a larger project took shape. There are definitely things to complain about w/regards to city council, but really, look at the overall progress that has made in less than 8 years. It has been very impressive and all indicators are that this is a positive trend that will continue. Ray Gindroz and others integrally involved with urban planning and new urbanism are not going to sit by the sidelines and let a few people blow what they've all been working towards. That, at least, is my opinion.

All I have to say is Broad Creek and they call that a Urban development. ITS NOT!

[vtfan18]

...Ray Gindroz and others integrally involved with urban planning and new urbanism are not going to sit by the sidelines and let a few people blow what they've all been working towards...

Funny thing about Ray, he gets paid a ton to tell Norfolk citizens things we already know!

[levarforever]

Most of what I'm reading in this thread is not very hopeful and rather disheartening. I guess I don't know what to do with information like this except prepare to leave this area, as I had planned at first, assuming that what has been projected here is true, as far as Norfolk not having any clear and reasonable plans for the Quadrant.

My optimistic side tells me that the city council, under enough pressure, will make a smarter decision. Broad Creek is a good ways outside of downtown Norfolk; and we all know which one the city council cherishes the most. So, my hopeful side is saying that the meetings were just PR moves and that the council, for the most part, already have plans in the works that blend into downtown. I mean, that's what I'd like to think, considering the fact that I wasn't at the meeting to give a solid conjecture. But again, if all the negative projections from you guys come true, then I think I'll be leaving this area pretty soon, unless someone has some answers to how we can influence the city to make the right decision.

[cpeakesqr]

Most of what I'm reading in this thread is not very hopeful and rather disheartening. I guess I don't know what to do with information like this except prepare to leave this area, as I had planned at first, assuming that what has been projected here is true, as far as Norfolk not having any clear and reasonable plans for the Quadrant.

My optimistic side tells me that the city council, under enough pressure, will make a smarter decision. Broad Creek is a good ways outside of downtown Norfolk; and we all know which one the city council cherishes the most. So, my hopeful side is saying that the meetings were just PR moves and that the council, for the most part, already have plans in the works that blend into downtown. I mean, that's what I'd like to think, considering the fact that I wasn't at the meeting to give a solid conjecture. But again, if all the negative projections from you guys come true, then I think I'll be leaving this area pretty soon, unless someone has some answers to how we can influence the city to make the right decision.

I think beneath the surface, Norfolk has a very clear and reasonable plan for the quadrant. Public housing has no business being in that location, and the city will get rid of Tidewater Gardens. Is Harbor's Edge still moving along... why not put a couple public housing towers there? Downtown is still accessible by foot...

[vdogg]

Most of what I'm reading in this thread is not very hopeful and rather disheartening. I guess I don't know what to do with information like this except prepare to leave this area, as I had planned at first, assuming that what has been projected here is true, as far as Norfolk not having any clear and reasonable plans for the Quadrant.

My optimistic side tells me that the city council, under enough pressure, will make a smarter decision. Broad Creek is a good ways outside of downtown Norfolk; and we all know which one the city council cherishes the most. So, my hopeful side is saying that the meetings were just PR moves and that the council, for the most part, already have plans in the works that blend into downtown. I mean, that's what I'd like to think, considering the fact that I wasn't at the meeting to give a solid conjecture. But again, if all the negative projections from you guys come true, then I think I'll be leaving this area pretty soon, unless someone has some answers to how we can influence the city to make the right decision.

I really wanted to come away from that meeting with good news. I just knew there would be new information or something remarkeable for me to bring back to the forum. I even brought my camera for such an occurance. Unfortunately, the assesment is an honest one. There were some rumblings, and at times heated discussion, about rumors that the city had already made up their mind as to what was planned for the tidewater gardens area. The residents were very unhappy about this. Daun Hester spent much of that time trying to dispel those rumors saying "I can't tell you now whether tidewater gardens with go or stay, no decision has been made". One other thing that I may have forgot to mention, that is somewhat on the good news side, is that the city has already started to buy land in order to make whatever plan comes out happen. The asst. city mgr. said there were contracts pending for that. This whole tidewater gardens thing is a powder keg, and I don't know if we can realistically hold any "plan" at face value until this issue is solved first. There are some tough decisions coming i feel. It's easy to sit back here and say what should be done with this area, but very hard to look a real person in the face and tell them they're being moved from their "home" to make room for higher purposes. I wouldn't be so disheartened levar, but at the same point this process is going to take a long time. I think we stand a real chance of seeing north of Brambleton developed before any of this comes to fruition.

[levarforever]

I wonder if any developers are interested in the Quadrant. Does anybody know? Assuming some of the council is in talks with one already, I hope it's a developer that has an appreciation and experience with urban development...and a proven track record. We'd do better with someone from much larger and more successful urban areas outside of ours.

[urbanlife]

I think beneath the surface, Norfolk has a very clear and reasonable plan for the quadrant. Public housing has no business being in that location, and the city will get rid of Tidewater Gardens. Is Harbor's Edge still moving along... why not put a couple public housing towers there? Downtown is still accessible by foot...

What a minute there, public housing is very important there. You best not be thinking of lower income people not that important to the social structure of a city and can be moved around and pushed to lesser important areas. What the Tidewater Gardens is now is not a good thing. It basically quarentines poverty to a specific area, but on the flip side of it, building a few isolated towers that meet a number demand is also equally bad. For this to work correctly, the people of Tidewater Gardens need to feel as if they are not just worthless poor people and that the importance to their being there matters. Intergrating section 8 housing into other income housing is the only smart thing to do. The people who currently live there need to understand the demand for density and living in the core of the metro. There is no way a world class city can work without mixed incomes living in it.

I do agree with the need for the people to live there to want it to be another Broad Creek. It is very easy for them to simply go and see how that area is acting and say "that is what I want for my neighborhood." But Broad Creek can happen on a much more dense level. This is where the need for public space and park land comes in. For the livability that is taken away from the aspect of density, it needs to be helped along with the need to communicate with nature. Increasing someone's desire to better themselves and make them feel more important, there needs to be that connection. There is a better possibility for someone living in section 8 housing to care about their community if they feel apart of it and feel that they have been given something special. Moderate size housing that can fit them and their family comfortably and the aspect of the neighborhood around them.

I am saying all of this because I am very aware that region is without this model. I am aware that many people that live there and work in government there have no idea how this works. But for someone who has seen this first hand, it is the only way for the city to go. If the city of Norfolk ever wishes to be a world class city, it needs to make all its residents feel world class.

Seriously, I could draw up exactly what would be good for that area and it will probably be a better plan than anything the people within the city government would ever even consider.

As for anyone in here who wishes to attach a negative stereotype to section 8 housing, you need to get off your high horse, they are people to that all have the same needs and wants as you do. I guess this is one of the main reasons for needing to move away from there, I can't take such a negative outlook towards people of a lesser financial status. I am sorry, but I see everyone playing from an equal point and should be treated fairly and given a chance to better themselves and provide a good life for their families.

I in no way mean this to be an attack on anyone, I have just noticed too many comments that have been looking at poorer people in a negative way. Be it with this project or light rail or whatever. The people in that region seriously need to take a look around and realize that in order to better themselves, they must respect their neighbor.

[levarforever]

What a minute there, public housing is very important there. You best not be thinking of lower income people not that important to the social structure of a city and can be moved around and pushed to lesser important areas. What the Tidewater Gardens is now is not a good thing. It basically quarentines poverty to a specific area, but on the flip side of it, building a few isolated towers that meet a number demand is also equally bad. For this to work correctly, the people of Tidewater Gardens need to feel as if they are not just worthless poor people and that the importance to their being there matters. Intergrating section 8 housing into other income housing is the only smart thing to do. The people who currently live there need to understand the demand for density and living in the core of the metro. There is no way a world class city can work without mixed incomes living in it.

I do agree with the need for the people to live there to want it to be another Broad Creek. It is very easy for them to simply go and see how that area is acting and say "that is what I want for my neighborhood." But Broad Creek can happen on a much more dense level. This is where the need for public space and park land comes in. For the livability that is taken away from the aspect of density, it needs to be helped along with the need to communicate with nature. Increasing someone's desire to better themselves and make them feel more important, there needs to be that connection. There is a better possibility for someone living in section 8 housing to care about their community if they feel apart of it and feel that they have been given something special. Moderate size housing that can fit them and their family comfortably and the aspect of the neighborhood around them.

I am saying all of this because I am very aware that region is without this model. I am aware that many people that live there and work in government there have no idea how this works. But for someone who has seen this first hand, it is the only way for the city to go. If the city of Norfolk ever wishes to be a world class city, it needs to make all its residents feel world class.

Seriously, I could draw up exactly what would be good for that area and it will probably be a better plan than anything the people within the city government would ever even consider.

As for anyone in here who wishes to attach a negative stereotype to section 8 housing, you need to get off your high horse, they are people to that all have the same needs and wants as you do. I guess this is one of the main reasons for needing to move away from there, I can't take such a negative outlook towards people of a lesser financial status. I am sorry, but I see everyone playing from an equal point and should be treated fairly and given a chance to better themselves and provide a good life for their families.

I in no way mean this to be an attack on anyone, I have just noticed too many comments that have been looking at poorer people in a negative way. Be it with this project or light rail or whatever. The people in that region seriously need to take a look around and realize that in order to better themselves, they must respect their neighbor.

Hey urbanlife. I'm right there with you. I was a bit conflicted at first, but I think you articulated what I wanted to say very well. But I'm thinking, the Quadrant should be a mix of office, retail, and civic uses, as well as a mix of incomes. That way, no one will feel isolated and there won't be a lot of socio-economic tensions. In the long run, having a community like that will stress cultural diversity and interaction...that is at least the hope.

[cpeakesqr]

What a minute there, public housing is very important there. You best not be thinking of lower income people not that important to the social structure of a city and can be moved around and pushed to lesser important areas. What the Tidewater Gardens is now is not a good thing. It basically quarentines poverty to a specific area, but on the flip side of it, building a few isolated towers that meet a number demand is also equally bad. For this to work correctly, the people of Tidewater Gardens need to feel as if they are not just worthless poor people and that the importance to their being there matters. Intergrating section 8 housing into other income housing is the only smart thing to do. The people who currently live there need to understand the demand for density and living in the core of the metro. There is no way a world class city can work without mixed incomes living in it.

As for anyone in here who wishes to attach a negative stereotype to section 8 housing, you need to get off your high horse, they are people to that all have the same needs and wants as you do. I guess this is one of the main reasons for needing to move away from there, I can't take such a negative outlook towards people of a lesser financial status. I am sorry, but I see everyone playing from an equal point and should be treated fairly and given a chance to better themselves and provide a good life for their families.

I in no way mean this to be an attack on anyone, I have just noticed too many comments that have been looking at poorer people in a negative way. Be it with this project or light rail or whatever. The people in that region seriously need to take a look around and realize that in order to better themselves, they must respect their neighbor.

The resident who was quoted in the VP article had been living in Tidewater Gardens for over 50 years... Since the age of 6, this woman has been living in public housing. She may well and truly be disadvantaged, but there is something wrong with this scenario. Why should the poorest of the poor get to choose where everyone else pays for them to live for the rest of their lives? Moving them is not wrong... as long as it's suitable. The city has to do what's best for the city, but sending these people down the river wouldn't be good either. No pun. A reasonable solution is needed... I see lawsuits, and lots of negative Pilot articles on the horizon.

Also, a mix of incomes would be great... but this is Norfolk, Virginia, not Harlem. Don't expect open-minded rich people to suddenly pop up wanting to live above or next to Section 8. A mix of affordable housing and public housing might work, but the success is unpredictable.

Edited October 6, 2007 by cpeakesqr

[Dulcinea]

I was also at the meeting on Friday night, and attended today's charette as well. Vdogg's assessment is pretty solid. When the folks in attendence broke into sub-groups, about half the people went home. Those who remained could go to different tables that focused on housing, retail, transportation, historical preservation, water management (flooding), and parks/recreation. Almost everyone who stayed were seated in the area of the housing table.

There was a lot of frustration amongst the Tidewater Gardens residents about not being able to receive a yes/no answer in terms of whether there would be an equivalent number of public housing units available in the redeveloped quadrant, as there are currently (618 units). I went out for a cigarette when they left, and talked to a couple of women, who said that the meeting facilitators were saying pretty much the same thing as last year - and that they'd rather just have a straight-up idea of whether they're going to have a place to live or not, instead of being presented with nice-sounding words.

Today's info: Overall, it sounded like the goal is to have a total of 2,000 mixed income units within a variety of structures; retail ground floor with 3-5 floors of apartments, townhouses/rowhouses, and mid-level apartment buildings. There was very little talk of having a Broad Creek-type housing situation, as almost all Norfolk residents (maybe 30-40) that attended on Saturday were in favor of higher density urban housing.

[vdogg]

Today's info: Overall, it sounded like the goal is to have a total of 2,000 mixed income units within a variety of structures; retail ground floor with 3-5 floors of apartments, townhouses/rowhouses, and mid-level apartment buildings. There was very little talk of having a Broad Creek-type housing situation, as almost all Norfolk residents (maybe 30-40) that attended on Saturday were in favor of higher density urban housing.

That is somewhat better than yesterday, so at least we're making progess. Urban, walkable, and open space are a must. They must also set aside part of this area for expansion of the financial district. I'm still disappointed with the progress, but what you've put out is a little more detail than they gave yesterday.