St. Paul's Quadrant (Phase 2-Under Construction)

[levarforever]

Well that kind of sounds promising. They seem to be following the New Urbanism philosophy. I can already picture the Quadrant completely redeveloped in my head, though I wonder how old I'll be when that happens...hopefully, still young enough to enjoy it when it comes to fruition.

[rusthebuss]

I would rather see it used as a DT extention more than residential. This could be a good attraction for business to relocate

[levarforever]

My wish is that the city can get a concrete development project completed for light rail's operational debut in 2010. If it's going to take 5 years or more, I don't think I'll stick around and wait. All these delays could turn into a lasting blemish on downtown's success.

[urbanlife]

I would rather see it used as a DT extention more than residential. This could be a good attraction for business to relocate

The new downtown is residential. The building of large commercial areas is gone, there isn't enough office demand for that anymore. But there is still a demand for a mix of office, retail, and residential. Think of it this way, you want it to be an extension of downtown, well what does that look like? Do you want it to be an area full of office towers that are vacant after work hours, or would you rather see building that have lower floors that are offices, while the higher floors are apartments and condos? There could be a few tall office towers built when there is a demand for it, but over all most of the structures built would be residential towers and dense building with retail on the first floor.

The south waterfront in Portland is mostly residential. This basically is the new look to urban areas (give or take design qualities).

South Waterfront, Portland, OR

Edited October 7, 2007 by urbanlife

[rusthebuss]

We will never see anything like that here. Its a shame cause Norfolk has tons of potential.

[urbanlife]

and thus is why I had to move.

[vtfan18]

The south waterfront in Portland is mostly residential. This basically is the new look to urban areas (give or take design qualities).

South Waterfront, Portland, OR

Reminds me of an area of Denver undergoing the same type development. The city bid out the land to a number of developers to build the entire parcel. The development company did a first rate job and designed the entire area with a master plan. If you scroll the entire page, it'll list all the developments within this particular area. Saint Paul's should be one master plan urban neighborhood.

http://www.ewpartners.com/development_location.aspx?id=2

A little bit of side news, got back from a business trip to Bahrain not too long ago. I took some pics of the massive developments going on there. Not on par with Dubai but still very very impressive! I'll post pics when I get a sec.

[levarforever]

I've been coming across info on Arlington, VA and I hear it's the nation's leading example of transit oriented design and mixed use development and so on. And I was thinking to myself, "why can't Norfolk be like that"? 7 of Arlington's 11 metrorail stations have high density development around them. They call it following the "smart growth" philosophy. Actually there are several terms that pretty much mean the same thing.

Anyway, I was thinking about moving up there, not just for the urban feel, but because they have more graphic design jobs up there. I think Norfolk could learn a lot from Arlington when it comes to mixed-use development in the Quadrant. I read something about Arlington getting rid of a lot of the sprawled areas and adhering to a more high-density approach, by building more row houses and other high density housing. Arlington also has made an effort provide more affordable housing. I think Norfolk can learn from that too.

Edited October 7, 2007 by levarforever

[levarforever]

Here's an example of transit-oriented development (design) in Arlington. If Norfolk does the right thing with St. Paul's Quadrant and other areas, it could look something like this one day. Sorry if the picture is a bit pixelated, but I'm sure you get what I'm saying.

Edited October 7, 2007 by levarforever

[scm]

Reminds me of an area of Denver undergoing the same type development. The city bid out the land to a number of developers to build the entire parcel. The development company did a first rate job and designed the entire area with a master plan. If you scroll the entire page, it'll list all the developments within this particular area. Saint Paul's should be one master plan urban neighborhood.

http://www.ewpartners.com/development_location.aspx?id=2

East West was chosen this summer to redevelop a former low income housing project in Charleston, Ansonborough Homes. Novel approach to many of the same problems as Tidewater Gardens. Has the city ever thought about putting the entire quadrant out for RFP?

Developer to pay $16M for Concord Park if deal OK'd

[levarforever]

Reminds me of an area of Denver undergoing the same type development. The city bid out the land to a number of developers to build the entire parcel. The development company did a first rate job and designed the entire area with a master plan. If you scroll the entire page, it'll list all the developments within this particular area. Saint Paul's should be one master plan urban neighborhood.

http://www.ewpartners.com/development_location.aspx?id=2

A little bit of side news, got back from a business trip to Bahrain not too long ago. I took some pics of the massive developments going on there. Not on par with Dubai but still very very impressive! I'll post pics when I get a sec.

Yes, I agree it should all be one master plan. That way, the design will be more uniform and appear to be purposeful. I'm anxious to see what Norfolk has in mind, if anything, so far. If Norfolk doesn't get this Quadrant redevelopment going soon, I plan to swamp the council with so many letters they'll have to use a leaf blower to get through city hall...lol.

[brikkman]

I do not really think the argument is completely negative towards the public housing people. Most people (including me) are simply stating that everyone can be a winner providing the circumstances. They are worried about having free housing AFTER the redevelopment. They are not exactly mad about the redevelopment, they just want to make sure they have something when it is all said and done. Now every working American looks at public housing negatively because we are 100 percent confident that people abuse the system. This is proven in the article about the lady being in that area for 5 decades...She essentially did not better herself in 50 years. I personal blame it on a failed system that does not encourage them to better themselves. In reality, we all accept public housing on some level but it isn't a situation were everyone can not benefit. People can be dispersed, relocated, section 8'ed or whatever. This is not the only available place in Norfolk for them to go. Every middle class citizen wishes they could have a hand out like these people.

[levarforever]

I do not really think the argument is completely negative towards the public housing people. Most people (including me) are simply stating that everyone can be a winner providing the circumstances. They are worried about having free housing AFTER the redevelopment. They are not exactly mad about the redevelopment, they just want to make sure they have something when it is all said and done. Now every working American looks at public housing negatively because we are 100 percent confident that people abuse the system. This is proven in the article about the lady being in that area for 5 decades...She essentially did not better herself in 50 years. I personal blame it on a failed system that does not encourage them to better themselves. In reality, we all accept public housing on some level but it isn't a situation were everyone can not benefit. People can be dispersed, relocated, section 8'ed or whatever. This is not the only available place in Norfolk for them to go. Every middle class citizen wishes they could have a hand out like these people.

I believe the low income residents of the Quadrant can come out winners in future development. From what I understand, the city of Norfolk wants to achieve a mixed-use, transit oriented development...something along those lines. Usually, such developments include a mix of incomes as well as a mix of retail and office uses.

Take Park Place for instance. In the past several years, I've noticed an influx of the middle-class into Park Place(the vast majority of them being young professionals who can't quite afford the more expensive housing) fixing up the old houses and apartment buildings. Now, you can see relatively expensive housing and affordable housing on the same street. I think the activity there is building up too.

Recenly, there have been old apartment buildings from the early 1900s converted into what are called "affordable condos", which is ironic, because Park Place is generally regarded as a low income neighborhood that has wrestled with crime and blight for years.

Here's a link to a Virginian-Pilot article from last year, addressing the same issue: Affordable Condos in Park Place.

Things are changing there. And from what I can see it is, to some degree, a mixed income neighborhood. Certainly, it wasn't originally built for that purpose, but I think it reminds us that the same is possible for St. Paul's Quadrant.

[levarforever]

Just to add...without clogging up the traffic ...

For a mixed use community in St. Paul's quadrant to work, meaning one that includes middle-income and affordable housing, it is important to attract the young professionals, college students, and the like or as some would call them, "yuppies". It's that particular group of the middle-class that, I believe, is more open-minded to the sentiments and desires of those who live on the lower end of the economic ladder. I find them more willing to interact and mingle with the low income demographic, even beyond racial lines. I think they are the future of Norfolk, in that they will defy old myths about low income residents and urban life in general.

I mean no offense, but most of the phobias, real or imagined, about urban life are still held by the older, more conservative, suburb-loving crowd...and I'm saying this as someone who considers himself a young conservative...well reasonably conservative.

Anyway, I find that for the most part, the young-professional is more open to diversity (racial, cultural, socio-economic, etc.), so I would urge the city of Norfolk to keep this in mind when redeveloping the Quadrant. If I'm not mistaken, much of downtown's continued success in the housing market is due to it's appeal to young professionals, whether that was intended or not. I mean, that's just what I hear nowadays. On that note, I'm not saying all the older middle class wouldn't be interested.

[brikkman]

Take Park Place for instance. In the past several years, I've noticed an influx of the middle-class into Park Place(the vast majority of them being young professionals who can't quite afford the more expensive housing) fixing up the old houses and apartment buildings. Now, you can see relatively expensive housing and affordable housing on the same street. I think the activity there is building up too.

Recenly, there have been old apartment buildings from the early 1900s converted into what are called "affordable condos", which is ironic, because Park Place is generally regarded as a low income neighborhood that has wrestled with crime and blight for years.

Here's a link to a Virginian-Pilot article from last year, addressing the same issue: Affordable Condos in Park Place.

Things are changing there. And from what I can see it is, to some degree, a mixed income neighborhood. Certainly, it wasn't originally built for that purpose, but I think it reminds us that the same is possible for St. Paul's Quadrant.

Umm not exactly, although I would not say it is not completely false. Actually that's probably more true than false after I thought about it. The houses that you see infiltrating Park place are homes provided to citizens who come below a certain wage were they can receive a low 30 year fixed interest loan. The conditions of this contract require them to remain in the home for a minimum of 7 years and their family size (before applying) must be a certain size. I have a buddy who received one of those homes. Very nice considering where we are from. He told me that his home cost about 160 grand (I believe) and automatically jump up 40 grand in value once he signed the contract. If you roll through Park place, you'll see that they have cleared entire blocks sparking redevelopment in that area as a way to motivate citizens and slowly weed out and convert unproductive citizens.

There are some other apts that were converted into condos and are laughable at best. My wife and I talk about those every so often because they once were apts and no condo's. Not only that, they have no central a/c, I can only imagine the price tag on it. I think the idea is great, however, I think they need to redevelop an entire section before people will be motivated to consider it.

Edited October 8, 2007 by brikkman

[scm]

Umm not exactly, although I would not say it is not completely false. Actually that's probably more true than false after I thought about it. The houses that you see infiltrating Park place are homes provided to citizens who come below a certain wage were they can receive a low 30 year fixed interest loan. The conditions of this contract require them to remain in the home for a minimum of 7 years and their family size (before applying) must be a certain size. I have a buddy who received one of those homes. Very nice considering where we are from. He told me that his home cost about 160 grand (I believe) and automatically jump up 40 grand in value once he signed the contract. If you roll through Park place, you'll see that they have cleared entire blocks sparking redevelopment in that area as a way to motivate citizens and slowly weed out and convert unproductive citizens.

There are some other apts that were converted into condos and are laughable at best. My wife and I talk about those every so often because they once were apts and no condo's. Not only that, they have no central a/c, I can only imagine the price tag on it. I think the idea is great, however, I think they need to redevelop an entire section before people will be motivated to consider it.

Might be time for Vdogg to start a Park Place thread when he gets back. PP is a high potential neighborhood, especially as ODU transitions into a residental campus. There will be expanded demand for student housing that on-campus will never meet, as well as student focused retail. I could see 35th becoming THE student population retail street.

[levarforever]

Umm not exactly, although I would not say it is not completely false. Actually that's probably more true than false after I thought about it. The houses that you see infiltrating Park place are homes provided to citizens who come below a certain wage were they can receive a low 30 year fixed interest loan. The conditions of this contract require them to remain in the home for a minimum of 7 years and their family size (before applying) must be a certain size. I have a buddy who received one of those homes. Very nice considering where we are from. He told me that his home cost about 160 grand (I believe) and automatically jump up 40 grand in value once he signed the contract. If you roll through Park place, you'll see that they have cleared entire blocks sparking redevelopment in that area as a way to motivate citizens and slowly weed out and convert unproductive citizens.

There are some other apts that were converted into condos and are laughable at best. My wife and I talk about those every so often because they once were apts and no condo's. Not only that, they have no central a/c, I can only imagine the price tag on it. I think the idea is great, however, I think they need to redevelop an entire section before people will be motivated to consider it.

Actually, I've seen old houses being renovated in Park Place...Victorian, Arts and Crafts style, etc. I know what you mean about the new construction on the blocks that have been cleared, which I don't really like because the houses they put in their place don't do the historical integrity of Park Place any justice. For example, I've lived in Park Place for years, on 35th street to be exact, where you can see those new vynill houses on Newport Avenue, (34th and 35th among other places) dubbed "Park Place Central" or something like that. They look too assembly-line for my tastes and as if they can be picked apart with my bare hands. The older, and brick houses, I might add, appear sturdier and not so artificial. There isn't a wide spread initiative to renovate the houses in Park Place that I know of, but there are some private investors doing so. Sure the process is slow, but I've seen it happen enough to think that there is a burgeoning mixed income community. Not by design of coures, because Park Place wasn't originally concieved for that purpose.

There was a young couple that moved into one of the old houses down the street from me and across from them a middle class family, one of them being someone I knew from Granby high school. I even lived next door to the business of a fairly well known Norfolk figure, who shall remain nameless. Believe it or not there are people of middle income sprinkled around Park Place. It just tends to go unnoticed because of Park Place's negative reputation.

Now whether the new development or renovations are an attempt to weed out the unproductive citizens intentionally...I wish I could read minds, but I can't say for sure. It could happen once the middle class become the overwhelming majority there, but that's speculative at this point. As it stands now, I think Park Place can capitalize on it's present mix of income status.

As for the apartments there, atleast they're fixing them up instead of letting them go to waste. I'm not sure which one's in particular you're talking about not having a/c. I'll have to do some research on that. Just curious...What do you think about the three newly renovated apartment buildings on 36th street? I think they're called Kensington Condominiums.

[brikkman]

Actually, I've seen old houses being renovated in Park Place...Victorian, Arts and Crafts style, etc. I know what you mean about the new construction on the blocks that have been cleared, which I don't really like because the houses they put in their place don't do the historical integrity of Park Place any justice. For example, I've lived in Park Place for years, on 35th street to be exact, where you can see those new vynill houses on Newport Avenue, (34th and 35th among other places) dubbed "Park Place Central" or something like that. They look too assembly-line for my tastes and as if they can be picked apart with my bare hands. The older, and brick houses, I might add, appear sturdier and not so artificial. There isn't a wide spread initiative to renovate the houses in Park Place that I know of, but there are some private investors doing so. Sure the process is slow, but I've seen it happen enough to think that there is a burgeoning mixed income community. Not by design of coures, because Park Place wasn't originally concieved for that purpose.

There was a young couple that moved into one of the old houses down the street from me and across from them a middle class family, one of them being someone I knew from Granby high school. I even lived next door to the business of a fairly well known Norfolk figure, who shall remain nameless. Believe it or not there are people of middle income sprinkled around Park Place. It just tends to go unnoticed because of Park Place's negative reputation.

Now whether the new development or renovations are an attempt to weed out the unproductive citizens intentionally...I wish I could read minds, but I can't say for sure. It could happen once the middle class become the overwhelming majority there, but that's speculative at this point. As it stands now, I think Park Place can capitalize on it's present mix of income status.

As for the apartments there, atleast they're fixing them up instead of letting them go to waste. I'm not sure which one's in particular you're talking about not having a/c. I'll have to do some research on that. Just curious...What do you think about the three newly renovated apartment buildings on 36th street? I think they're called Kensington Condominiums.

No I haven't, I swing by there tomorrow.

I have to ride through there everyday, my company moved to ODU campus off 43rd.

I take my son to school at Taylor elem. then come up hampton, but I'll check them out tomorrow....

[brikkman]

No I haven't, I swing by there tomorrow.

I have to ride through there everyday, my company moved to ODU campus off 43rd.

I take my son to school at Taylor elem. then come up hampton, but I'll check them out tomorrow....

Can't seem to find what you are referring to....are you sure its 36th?

[Former Resident of HR]

We will never see anything like that here. Its a shame cause Norfolk has tons of potential.

Portland was the armpit of the west for most of the 50's-70's. As someone from the West Coast, I grew up with stories of how filthy and terrible Portland was. It took some vision and some political power to change things around. It was only in the 80's that it started looking up and only since the mid 90's has it been such a "hot spot".

Norfolk has a great location, good climate and could reap the benefits of some of that. However, I think that our backwards looking city council/mayor who want to redevelop Norfolk in a 60's fashion (tear everything down and push everyone out) will continue to be our biggest liability. They do not want modern projects, they do not want modern solutions and they do not want a modern city. What I really suspect that they want is for Norfolk to become the world's largest retirement home.

[scm]

They do not want modern projects, they do not want modern solutions and they do not want a modern city. What I really suspect that they want is for Norfolk to become the world's largest retirement home.

What in the world makes Norfolk attractive as a retirement home? There is only one reason I know of to retire here -- that is because your kids and grandkids all live here. Other than that, there isn't any attraction to HR as a retirement home.

I think you'd be surprised to learn how college towns (Charlottesville and Durham, for example) are the new high demand retirement destinations. Retirees are attracted to the education and cultural offerings in those towns. Also, many are moving into urban settings for easy access to services. Effective mass transportation is a big attraction for retirees.

I realize there is some level of hyperbole in your statement. But a little bit of stereotyping as well.

[brikkman]

Regardless of what St. Paul Quadrant becomes, I really hope that they set some land aside for a true entertainment district. I truly believe if they set some land away it will develop on its own. They do not have to worry about condo's over top of venues, drunk people yelling and screaming after 2, they can allow venues to stay open past 2am (You have to love that..). I guess I'm game for anything that isn't a business park or another Broad Creek.

[scm]

they can allow venues to stay open past 2am (You have to love that..).

If you can't serve alcohol past 2 AM (state law), then why would a venue want to stay open? And would people really stay if they can't even consume past 2 (also state law).

[brikkman]

If you can't serve alcohol past 2 AM (state law), then why would a venue want to stay open? And would people really stay if they can't even consume past 2 (also state law).

I am not a drinker at all, so that would be a question for someone who drinks. I personally would, entertainment for me and others are not supported by alcohol. I can party hard without a drink, probably harder in most cases. I guess to answer your question; I would answer it with another question: Will they know, care, or be coherent to realize alcohol has stopped being served?

[scm]

I personally would, entertainment for me and others are not supported by alcohol. I guess to answer your question; I would answer it with another question: Will they know, care, or be coherent to realize alcohol has stopped being served?

Well, the one who will know is the owner of the establishment. He's the one paying for any venue to stay open, and if the high margin liquor sales stop, then there is no incentive for him to keep the overhead meter running -- paying staff, paying utilities -- heck, I would bet the band would want more money. You might stay --- there aren't enough like you to pay the bills.

Watching a TV show the other night -- showed things to do in LA. Goes to this really cool martini bar. I asked my wife "why don't we have something cool like that here?" Got past the "because there aren't enough cool people here" and got to the real reason -- the antiquated VA liquor laws. No bars here -- just restaurants that serve alcohol.