St. Paul's Quadrant (Phase 2-Under Construction)

[gosscj]

Unbelievable.

[Padman]

I believe the City believes that this parking lot will be a cheap, temporary use that will solve a short term problem. We know, however, from Norfolk's history that surface parking lots often remain in place for many years. Look at the infamous 17 acres and how it waited so long to become MacArthur Mall. It might be better to build a vertical garage on a small portion of the lot.

[vaguynny]

I think that they should do a "town center or Atlanta Atlantic Station" type development that space (http://www.atlanticstation.com/home.php) ... I think the space should have a more urban fee after all is in in downtown Norfolk. Downtown Norfolk has more space than any other city that I know in the US. St.. Pauls Blvd.. should also be redesigned to make it more pedestrian friendly like N. Charles Street in Baltimore MD or Eastern Parkway in Brooklyn NY.

[rusthebuss]

I think that they should do a "town center or Atlanta Atlantic Station" type development that space (http://www.atlanticstation.com/home.php) ... I think the space should have a more urban fee after all is in in downtown Norfolk. Downtown Norfolk has more space than any other city that I know in the US. St.. Pauls Blvd.. should also be redesigned to make it more pedestrian friendly like N. Charles Street in Baltimore MD or Eastern Parkway in Brooklyn NY.

It won't happen with the current people controlling this. We need to find better and more imaginative people into this system. For all of the good they do they do more negative to the city. This city has tons of potential. I believe the reason for us not getting the jobs here is because of the good ol boy system in place now.

[brikkman]

I think all knew for a long time they were heading in the wrong direction for the city. For me, it just crept up on me.

So lets sit back and watch what happens....Broadcreek part "deuce". But its nothing thriving about this, this should not have even been made into a report.

[rusthebuss]

I think all knew for a long time they were heading in the wrong direction for the city. For me, it just crept up on me.

So lets sit back and watch what happens....Broadcreek part "deuce". But its nothing thriving about this, this should not have even been made into a report.

The Broad Creek part is what scares me! That is not a urban development. They are going around high fiving each other for how successful a urban development it was! Someone needs to wake them up.

[brikkman]

That is what scares me as well. It

[New England Transplant]

Guys, come on, do you really think this is going to stay a parking lot? They've done a nice job redeveloping downtown and I think there is a lot more evidence to suggest that they'll get this right, then there is to suggest they'll put another Broad Creek there. Broad Creek is out in the middle of the city. They clearly know that this property is very valuable and they have to maximize it to generate revenue for the city. I see this as a temporary solution as they hash out a more long-term plan.

[urbanvb]

Well a parking lot is just a future development space especially as all other lots/spaces are developed.

Edited November 15, 2007 by urbanvb

[vdogg]

I see this as a temporary solution as they hash out a more long-term plan.

But if this is the case then why don't they state this. It seems to me that that would be the first thing out of their mouth if it truly were temporary. I really hope you're right but everything about this seems to suggest the contrary.

[New England Transplant]

I don't think they can be up front about it b/c of all the politics and issues surrounding that area. There is a lot of low income housing there that they are likely not going to be able to replace. The same issues arose w/Broad Creek. They took out a ton of low-income housing and didn't replace it. They moved some of the residents and provided some other housing, but nowhere near enough for everyone. I think you see the same delicate balance being played out there. My guess is that they can't be forthright about a master plan for that area because it would be too difficult to overcome at the current time.

[mistermetaj]

I don't think they can be up front about it b/c of all the politics and issues surrounding that area. There is a lot of low income housing there that they are likely not going to be able to replace. The same issues arose w/Broad Creek. They took out a ton of low-income housing and didn't replace it. They moved some of the residents and provided some other housing, but nowhere near enough for everyone. I think you see the same delicate balance being played out there. My guess is that they can't be forthright about a master plan for that area because it would be too difficult to overcome at the current time.

I understand the sensitivity of the issue, but economics is going to have to dictate this for Norfolk. No major business will build a headquarters next to public housing. Middle income residence don't want to live by public housing. No one wants to go shopping next to public housing. No one wants to play at park by public housing. For all that is good about public housing there is a lot of bad that is associated with it as well like drugs and crime. Things like that need to be moved away from the CBD, not built into it. Norfolk is no where near big enough to have a "projects" mentality and build small neighborhoods of highrise public housing. That being said, if they build a Broad Creek development, then they have made the decision taht eastward expansion ends there. It would be a very sad day for Norfolk if that would happen. I'm still getting over those ridiculous town homes behind the mall.

As for the parking lot, I definitely think it is for the time during construction of the Wachovia building. They are incorporating a parking garage in the Wachovia project anyway, so the parking lot will definitely be filled in with a building or two, there is no doubt in my mind.

[Sky06]

I understand the sensitivity of the issue, but economics is going to have to dictate this for Norfolk. No major business will build a headquarters next to public housing. Middle income residence don't want to live by public housing. No one wants to go shopping next to public housing. No one wants to play at park by public housing. For all that is good about public housing there is a lot of bad that is associated with it as well like drugs and crime. Things like that need to be moved away from the CBD, not built into it. Norfolk is no where near big enough to have a "projects" mentality and build small neighborhoods of highrise public housing. That being said, if they build a Broad Creek development, then they have made the decision taht eastward expansion ends there. It would be a very sad day for Norfolk if that would happen. I'm still getting over those ridiculous town homes behind the mall.

As for the parking lot, I definitely think it is for the time during construction of the Wachovia building. They are incorporating a parking garage in the Wachovia project anyway, so the parking lot will definitely be filled in with a building or two, there is no doubt in my mind.

Just my 2 cents:

I think there's an awful lot of jumping to conclusions here without any of us really knowing the details. The comments about the sensitivity of the situation are right on. i also agree with most of the comments above. But until we see more details, assuming this is going to be this or that is just speculation.

[Sky06]

Any new info on this? I mean, real news, not imagined?

[vtfan18]

I beleive Norfolk should let the private sector cast their proposals for Saint Paul's just like the dome site for Va Beach. If you let the consultant "tell" you what should be there you limit the possiblities of great use for the area. I definitely think it should be a master plan developed by one firm. Let them utilize economies of scale to bring a higher end product that may not be available if they piece it together.

[mistermetaj]

I beleive Norfolk should let the private sector cast their proposals for Saint Paul's just like the dome site for Va Beach. If you let the consultant "tell" you what should be there you limit the possiblities of great use for the area. I definitely think it should be a master plan developed by one firm. Let them utilize economies of scale to bring a higher end product that may not be available if they piece it together.

Unfortunately city council seems to believe that public housing is an intricate part of Norfolk's urban landscape and they know that the private sector will not incorporate it in their master plans.

[urbanlife]

here in Portland, the city has regulations and rules that require a number of low income housing and section 8 vouchers, so the city can do whatever it wants. If a developer wants to make money in that city, they will work with the city. Plus it is alot of land, it makes no sense to try and kick out all the public housing residents. I see no reason why they cannot be apart of the redevelopment of the area.

[mistermetaj]

here in Portland, the city has regulations and rules that require a number of low income housing and section 8 vouchers, so the city can do whatever it wants. If a developer wants to make money in that city, they will work with the city. Plus it is alot of land, it makes no sense to try and kick out all the public housing residents. I see no reason why they cannot be apart of the redevelopment of the area.

Norfolk isn't populated enough to where maintaining public housing in the downtown core wouldn't have a detrimental effect. What are they going to put around the public housing? What businesses and middle iusingncome families want to live by public housing. Norfolk to this day still has an unsafe stigma, so maintaining a large population of public housing in the downtown will do nothing to rid this stigma. There are other places for people in need of public housing. Maybe when Norfolk expands and gets larger than can be incorporated back in.

[vdogg]

middle iusingncome families

[Weaver24]

Norfolk isn't populated enough to where maintaining public housing in the downtown core wouldn't have a detrimental effect. What are they going to put around the public housing? What businesses and middle iusingncome families want to live by public housing. Norfolk to this day still has an unsafe stigma, so maintaining a large population of public housing in the downtown will do nothing to rid this stigma. There are other places for people in need of public housing. Maybe when Norfolk expands and gets larger than can be incorporated back in.

Unfortunately you are right about Norfolk's unsafe stigma. We are in the same shoes as Portsmouth. I would be rich if someone gave me a nickel everytime somebody said something negative about Norfolk and Portsmouth, and the public housing near Downtown Norfolk hurts the city's reputation even more, as well as the poor leadership that Va Pilot keeps writing about lately. But we do need to understand that everybody in public housing aren't criminals and they do need somewhere to live. As you can see Norfolk is a very complex city and we need good and competent leadership for it to grow and not for it to be ran in the ground.

[mistermetaj]

hahah...not sure how I butchered the word income that badly?

[urbanlife]

bad post, thought it was me how posted the word that made no sense. My computer has been acting stupid lately.

Unfortunately you are right about Norfolk's unsafe stigma. We are in the same shoes as Portsmouth. I would be rich if someone gave me a nickel everytime somebody said something negative about Norfolk and Portsmouth, and the public housing near Downtown Norfolk hurts the city's reputation even more, as well as the poor leadership that Va Pilot keeps writing about lately. But we do need to understand that everybody in public housing aren't criminals and they do need somewhere to live. As you can see Norfolk is a very complex city and we need good and competent leadership for it to grow and not for it to be ran in the ground.

Actually the city really needs neighborhood pride and awareness. That is the only true way Norfolk can change its image. It is part of my thesis when I go for my masters degree in architecture.

Edited December 11, 2007 by urbanlife

[vtfan18]

Here are some renderings of a mixed income rental development under construction now in Denver by the Denver Housing Authority. Its a redevelopment project of a former public housing complex. Similar concept of Broad Creek just completely different style. This is along the lines of what Norfolk needs downtown in St Pauls to meet the needs of current residents and change the face of the area attracting business and future development. I wish NRHA would think outside the box when it comes to design like other housing authorites.

The following is a picture of a another project by DHA on the homepage of their website. Just goes to show how forward thinking they are with the projects.

[Case]

The following is a picture of a another project by DHA on the homepage of their website. Just goes to show how forward thinking they are with the projects.

I have seen this building design in SE Atlanta. I was not impressed by it... somewhat clashed with all other architecture around it and didn't appear that it would stand the test of time.

[erdogs]

Here are some renderings of a mixed income rental development under construction now in Denver by the Denver Housing Authority. Its a redevelopment project of a former public housing complex. Similar concept of Broad Creek just completely different style. This is along the lines of what Norfolk needs downtown in St Pauls to meet the needs of current residents and change the face of the area attracting business and future development. I wish NRHA would think outside the box when it comes to design like other housing authorites.

The following is a picture of a another project by DHA on the homepage of their website. Just goes to show how forward thinking they are with the projects.

These look something like you would see in Europe, London comes to mind. I also thought "A Clockwork Orange".