St. Paul's Quadrant (Phase 2-Under Construction)

[brikkman]

No bars here -- just restaurants that serve alcohol.

If I recall correctly, I believe that is state law as well.

[vdogg]

Bugattis in downtown Norfolks opens after all the other clubs downtown close. They are always packed. They are allowed to serve beer and wine but no liquour. They close around 5 am I think. When I go there I don't drink, it's just a place to listen to music and sober up. If the club stopped serving a 2 but still stayed open i'd stay there, as would most people I know many of whom would dance the night away if they could.

Also, you have to get a permit for after hours operation, which i'm sure is obvious. The point i'm trying to make is that it is legal to serve alcohol after 2 in Va, so long as certain rules are followed and the city will issue a permit for it (that's the hard part).

[Former Resident of HR]

What in the world makes Norfolk attractive as a retirement home? There is only one reason I know of to retire here -- that is because your kids and grandkids all live here. Other than that, there isn't any attraction to HR as a retirement home.

I realize there is some level of hyperbole in your statement. But a little bit of stereotyping as well.

SCM... Norfolk is a big retirement area for military and a lot of NY/NJ people. The attractions are the nicer than New England winters, cheaper (comparatively speaking) housing prices, the Atlantic Ocean (duh), etc.

But what I meant is that the city leaders' vision for Norfolk is about as exciting as plans for the latest retirement home tend to be. They love anything colonial, bland, vanilla, etc.

Now as for the after hours bars that are able to run, don't they run under the pretense of being a "private club" (like the Elk's Lodge, etc.)? I think in that case, you have to be sponsored by someone and you are a "member". Wow it has been years since I stepped into Bugatti's so I don't quite remember how it works. Can you also bring your own hard liquor in and store it on the premises?

[vdogg]

SCM... Norfolk is a big retirement area for military and a lot of NY/NJ people. The attractions are the nicer than New England winters, cheaper (comparatively speaking) housing prices, the Atlantic Ocean (duh), etc.

But what I meant is that the city leaders' vision for Norfolk is about as exciting as plans for the latest retirement home tend to be. They love anything colonial, bland, vanilla, etc.

Now as for the after hours bars that are able to run, don't they run under the pretense of being a "private club" (like the Elk's Lodge, etc.)? I think in that case, you have to be sponsored by someone and you are a "member". Wow it has been years since I stepped into Bugatti's so I don't quite remember how it works. Can you also bring your own hard liquor in and store it on the premises?

I don't know about bringing your own liquor, as I have never tried. You do have to be or know a member, but that's not hard, trust me. I'm a member and the dues are 25 or 35 dollars a year (I forget which). I can have up to 4 guests. That said, if they know you, or if you're there early the membership policy is not as enforced as when the lines are long and they know they'll reach capacity. If you don't know a member or aren't a member yourself they'll usually let you in a couple of times anyway. After a bit though, if you still don't know anyone, they'll tell you you need to become a member.

[lammius]

I don't remember BYO being a big thing in VA. I've never done it there. There are a lot of restaurants in NJ that are BYO only. At first I thought it was kind of strange but now I love it because you can get the cheapest stuff you want to bring and not deal with restaurant markups on alcohol. Mmmm, nothing washes down a $50 Italian meal like a $5.99 bottle of wine from Rite-Aid!!!

I remember the after-hours bars in VA too. I never went to Bugatti's but there was one in Charlottesville I went to once or twice. Club members were allowed in, and they could sponsor one or two non-members to come in w/ them. So if you're not a member and don't know any members you try to chat up and befriend people outside and get them to bring you in w/ them. I think last call laws are silly. The market can set the last call time. In New York most bars close at 4 because most people have gone home by then. There are really only a few places that are open later.

[vaceltic]

"Norfolk Bars and Nightlife".....? Edited October 12, 2007 by vaceltic

[Sky06]

Again, I go back to my point about what will sell. It's not about gaining total concensus; that will never happen. But putting high-price condos or an entertainment district will get a lot of bad press. And we all know how hard the media will work to sell controversy. They'll do everything they can to make it fail.

I agree with the Bus. I think an extension of DT (office buildings) makes sense. Also, a small park and possibly public buildings (library, etc.) will be much more agreeable to all, because they are needed and are not meant to replace poor peoples' housing with housing or entertainment for the rich. I don't believe a mix of low- and middle-income will work either. It's time to rethink this valuable space and consider it a critical component of Norfolk's revitalization. What goes there may even spur the kind of growth from enterpeneurs that many are talking about. It doesn't have to be built all at once, but it does need to contain the right components. That's why I don't have a problem with the city saying this will take 10 years. What did it take the rest of DT . . . 200 years?

Edited October 12, 2007 by Sky06

[brikkman]

Again, I go back to my point about what will sell. It's not about gaining total concensus; that will never happen. But putting high-price condos or an entertainment district will get a lot of bad press. And we all know how hard the media will work to sell controversy. They'll do everything they can to make it fail.

I agree with the Bus. I think an extension of DT (office buildings) makes sense. Also, a small park and possibly public buildings (library, etc.) will be much more agreeable to all, because they are needed and are not meant to replace poor peoples' housing with housing or entertainment for the rich. I don't believe a mix of low- and middle-income will work either. It's time to rethink this valuable space and consider it a critical component of Norfolk's revitalization. What goes there may even spur the kind of growth from enterpeneurs that many are talking about. It doesn't have to be built all at once, but it does need to contain the right components. That's why I don't have a problem with the city saying this will take 10 years. What did it take the rest of DT . . . 200 years?

Well, that's my point, only part of it. I'm not saying develop the entire area into an entertainment district, but put some land aside.

[scm]

SCM... Norfolk is a big retirement area for military ...

It may be "big", but it isn't even in the top two. #1 destination -- San Antonio. #2 -- Tampa. What both of those places have, which HR lacks, is warm weather, no state income tax, and military health care that is more accessible to retirees (I won't get into how that works -- just that retirees don't have the acccess to on base care here that they do in Tampa or especially SA). Again, unless your kids or grand kids are here, military retirees will not stay here.

Many "retired" military will stay here for jobs, especially since they can retire from active duty, then take those same skill sets and walk right back in as a civil servant or contractor due to the large number of senior commands in this area. We are talking about 40-55 year olds, in a second career. If that is your idea of "retirement home" residents, then I guess we have a different definition of that word. And that is OK.

Interesting piece on this weekend's Today show about weekend destinations. The reporter chose Minneapolis-St. Paul, and she came clean about why -- her parents retired and bought a loft in the "Warehouse District". She's sitting there, just before she, her parents, and their friends were headed out to dinner and a jazz club, all within walking distance -- which her parents do frequently. She says, "Guess you aren't the boring people I thought you were when I was growing up." St. Paul's, as an entertainment district, can be attractive to a broad age range of residents.

[scm]

If I recall correctly, I believe that is state law as well.

That was exactly my point -- there is a requirement that 45% of the total sales have to be food and non-alcoholic beverages, with a minimum of $4K/month "food" and $2K "substantial entrees". Created to be impossible for a "bar" to meet.

I wonder how the Birchmere in Alexandria makes it under these rules, but I am sure they do. They have an extensive menu -- just that the kitchen opens at 6, and the shows start at 7:30. I am amazed they can meet the 45% rule in that time.

[VAGATOR]

That was exactly my point -- there is a requirement that 45% of the total sales have to be food and non-alcoholic beverages, with a minimum of $4K/month "food" and $2K "substantial entrees". Created to be impossible for a "bar" to meet.

I wonder how the Birchmere in Alexandria makes it under these rules, but I am sure they do. They have an extensive menu -- just that the kitchen opens at 6, and the shows start at 7:30. I am amazed they can meet the 45% rule in that time.

They probably cook the books. It's quite common practice in the state. Everybody overlooks that bogus 45% law.

[spiker3]

They probably cook the books. It's quite common practice in the state. Everybody overlooks that bogus 45% law.

Not true, Crocodile Rocks in Waterside had their alcohol license revoked because they didnt hit the 45% number. I work for a bar n grille, and the 45% is a huge deal, our percentages are put onto every daily paperwork.

[mikeas]

What happened is they didn't lie on the paperwork one time thus shutting themselves down. The way some of the clubs get away with it is giving away a free buffet with coupons that make it worth "$15-$20". Has anyone ever purchased food at Bar Norfolk? I think not.

Not true, Crocodile Rocks in Waterside had their alcohol license revoked because they didnt hit the 45% number. I work for a bar n grille, and the 45% is a huge deal, our percentages are put onto every daily paperwork.

[urbanlife]

What happened is they didn't lie on the paperwork one time thus shutting themselves down. The way some of the clubs get away with it is giving away a free buffet with coupons that make it worth "$15-$20". Has anyone ever purchased food at Bar Norfolk? I think not.

I remember back when I was living in VB, some coworkers and I went to Bar Norfolk and I remember hearing about them having a buffet. Cant say I remember ever seeing the food. You know that is a pretty dumb law to have, surprised no one has tried to challenge it. It kind of hinders nightlife in a city, which is not a good thing.

[vdogg]

Yep, just what downtown needs to make it more dense and urban, a surface lot....

Phase I (the northern section) of the new St. Paul

[brikkman]

Yep, just what downtown needs to make it more dense and urban, a surface lot....

Yeah, its pretty much a done deal. The surface lot thing maybe something to buy some time, but I really think in the end we will have another broadcreek with a store, rec center, and social service building...

[metalman]

It is possible that this could be temporary to supply needs lots until actual plans are made and construction begins on the St. Pauls disctrict?

[lammius]

Wonderful. Nothing says "Thriving Downtown" more than a 700-space(!!!) surface parking lot!!!

[vdogg]

It is possible that this could be temporary to supply needs lots until actual plans are made and construction begins on the St. Pauls disctrict?

There is talk of making it a permanent "park and ride" lot for the new light rail line, which makes about as much sense as hiring a felon to head your anti-crime division. Oops, did I say that out loud?

[Weaver24]

There is talk of making it a permanent "park and ride" lot for the new light rail line, which makes about as much sense as hiring a felon to head your anti-crime division. Oops, did I say that out loud?

Are the parking lots really going to be permanent? I was hoping they would make that area an inclusive part of downtown with URBAN redevelopment....not just parking lots. Wow that says alot for the creativity of the City of Norfolk. A new library and court building could go there..as well as trying to attract companies so they could build and locate there. We don't have nearly enough high paying jobs in this area, especially with the closing of Ford plant.

And Vdogg the guy resigned which was the right thing to do. The council will be evaluating the city manager's actions next week. She brought a lot of bad press for Norfolk. Alot are saying she needs to follow suit with Albert and leave due to her ineptitude.

[virginia pe]

Yep, just want downtown needs to make it more dense and urban, a surface lot....

According to a notice from the Downtown Norfolk Council, this surface lot is to replace the parking that will be lost when the Monticello Parking Garage is demolished to make way for the Wachovia Center. Look at it as something we have to endure in order to get Wachovia.

[vdogg]

According to a notice from the Downtown Norfolk Council, this surface lot is to replace the parking that will be lost when the Monticello Parking Garage is demolished to make way for the Wachovia Center. Look at it as something we have to endure in order to get Wachovia.

Don't get me wrong, I do understand the need to replace that parking. The fact remains though that in a recent article one of the top ideas was to keep that a park and ride lot for light rail. This really concerns me because it definitely seems like they're stepping in that direction. Of course they're not going to pave over the whole of St. Pauls quadrant, but downtown plaza is extremely valuable land. It would be a mistake to turn that into just a parking lot. Hopefully they change their minds and sometime in the future the will replace it with a nice mixed use project with perhaps a parking garage. It needs to be remembered however that a developer did approach the city to build an office tower complex on that land and the city turned him down in favor of initiating the St. Pauls quadrant study. All this info is from previous pilot articles that should be posted on this site. I may have to track them down and post some links.

[vdogg]

Ok, here's the one about DT plaza:

Developers clamour to build office towers/retail on downtown plaza

So Norfolk turned these people down?!?! And the assistant city manager wants to put a big box store there? In freaking downtown? Please tell me he's joking.

Developers are clamoring to acquire space at Downtown Plaza to build residences, office towers and retail outlets. The city has so far nixed all offers.

Yet because downtown is booming, with little vacant land available, city officials say downtown must eventually expand across St. Paul’s.

[vdogg]

Article

City officials see the chance to continue their push to bring more homeowners downtown by transforming the public housing and the area around it. That could include some affordable housing, along the lines of the Broad Creek development east of downtown that mixes market-rate and subsidized homes.

The city owns all property along the east side of St. Paul's Boulevard, including the Downtown Plaza shopping center site, which it bought in 2004.

The current idea, Assistant City Manager Stanley Stein said, is to build a 675-space park-and-ride lot there to tie in with the coming light rail system.

As I said, troubling.....

[rusthebuss]

We need leaders in this city with better visions. We need to put better leaders in there that will take this city to where it belongs.