Proposed: Echo Harbour

[wrldcoupe4]

Burt, there would be interior hallways for entry. The bldg just has large balconies.

[burt]

The "famous/historical" view is NOT the issue at hand. The project won't affect that. What would be affected is one of the last panaramas in the city of the city accessible by the general public.

Some people think the Chimborazza and Pocahontas views are better than Libby Hill's. The latter is NOT the only height offering viewsheds. The important panoramas from Libby are the river bend and downtown. The pano of the industrial south bank which resembles the present run down EH site will barely be affected.

And Coupe, thanks for pointing out that there would be interior entrances to the apartments.

[Cadeho]

I said one of the last.

It is the only point on Church Hill to have a full pan from east to west. I'm sorry, the general public can't climb private buildings to see the horizon. The lookout on Grace (Alden Aaroe) offers western and somewheat northern views. Jefferson Hill Park is not on Church Hill and is one of the best pans for the skyline and some of southside. Chimborazo, also not in Church Hill, has a great view of Fulton and Sugar Bottom... but that's all. It lacks the dead-on umph Libby Hill's view has.

You can't see Echo Harbour's land from Libby Hill... but you can see the south bank of the river.

[burt]

I said one of the last.

It is the only point on Church Hill to have a full pan from east to west. I'm sorry, the general public can't climb private buildings to see the horizon. The lookout on Grace (Alden Aaroe) offers western and somewheat northern views. Jefferson Hill Park is not on Church Hill and is one of the best pans for the skyline and some of southside. Chimborazo, also not in Church Hill, has a great view of Fulton and Sugar Bottom... but that's all. It lacks the dead-on umph Libby Hill's view has.

You can't see Echo Harbour's land from Libby Hill... but you can see the south bank of the river.

Good! One ugly view down, and a piece of another to go!

If Chimborazzo isn't in Church Hill, what is that area called? It used to be referred to as Church Hill when I was a kid and had a friend who lived on Chimborazzo Blvd. For that matter, the same was true of Jefferson Park. But maybe there are technical borders that split Church and Union Hills and define Chimborazzo of which I am not aware.

[Cadeho]

Yes, Church Hill and Chimborazo are different neighborhoods with different architecture and histories. Jefferson Hill Park is on Union Hill. Jefferson Ave was the creek that separated it from Church Hill.

What do you mean "ugly view down?"

Chimborazo really needs a lot of attention. Parts of the park are ignored and overgrown.

[ShadyGrove]

All of those views are spectacular - I used to love eating lunch up there. I value the view from Libby Hill tremendously. However I dont understand the thinking behind suggestions that if the horizon line is broken the whole thing goes up in smoke. And jokes about domestic terrorism in this day and age? Come on!

To be honest, I think the view would by enhanced by those towers. The design is just plain cool - and it has a real Wow factor that raises the bar - making it more than just infill between Rocketts and Tobacco Row. This is really the hinge at the rivers bend, it should make a dramatic visual impact to the skyline.

I am glad however that many are sticking up for the view - all of those views are important to Richmond's future and I believe it would be a tragedy if much of the river was blocked from view. Any proposal to poke the horizon should have a high bar to cross - maybe I'd feel even more strongly if I grew up in that particular neighborhood.

But realistically, from a perch on Libby Hll, what percentage of the 180 degree horison would be occupied by the towers? less than 5%?

And they're so dmn cool....

[Cadeho]

Thanks for your reply Shady... and don't be so shady... post more!

No one has said not to build Echo Harbour. It would still be neat seeing it below the hill. Maybe it won't break the horizon... it's hard to tell.

What domestic terrorism? Oh you mean the War Against Ross and Short Pump? Oh it'll be the cleanest war ever.

[jbjust]

I frankly can't see how anybody can look at those towers and think "cool." They look like they were designed by Mike Brady.

[mclawsdrive]

I frankly can't see how anybody can look at those towers and think "cool." They look like they were designed by Mike Brady.

No, you're thinking of Chesterfield's 5 story administration building. Echo harbor towers were designed by Sean Connery after he finished filming Thunderball in 1965. He fantasized about arriving at an orgy via his 'Bell Rocket Belt' Jet Pack onto a high balcony of a residential high rise. Watch the movie and then tell my I'm lying.

[journiyin]

No, you're thinking of Chesterfield's 5 story administration building. Echo harbor towers were designed by Sean Connery after he finished filming Thunderball in 1965. He fantasized about arriving at an orgy via his 'Bell Rocket Belt' Jet Pack onto a high balcony of a residential high rise. Watch the movie and then tell my I'm lying.

Maybe Im wrong but...

but back on topic, I dissappear for a week and you guys go into great gusto about this project. Since this is the type of thing that I do, especially mollifying clients and constituents Ill take a shot at what would appease everyone here...

Cam, I propose that you do get your meeting with the developer... with a representative from the city planning department present. Present your qualms openly and have them recorded. Come prepared with photos from the park and where you want the viewshed preserved. understand that he has to make his money, so some height will be maintained, but he will understand he wont make many people happy if he bullies his project through.

Downtowner, interesting view that we need to build more on sites that are technically outside the reach of downtown currently, shouldnt we focus on building on the parking lots downtown?

Burt, you are totally right about the needed connection to Rocketts and the extension of downtown. I also see that you agree with everyone elses assessment that the river needs cleaning up and somehow developed in this section... but are you ok with a fifteen story building doing that? Or the Watergate, which is 8 stories and then two or 3 for the rest...?

McLaw... well thanks for a good laugh, Ill remember some of those jokes the next time i walk into a meeting with a developer...

Shady brings up a good point in that a viewshed with horizantal seperation from a vertical object is typically on marginally affected. Two cases in point, one the Eiffel Tower in Paris, the other the Washington Monument in Washington DC. Both projects were not highly favored in their time, the Eiffel, for well ruining the beauty that was Paris at the time and the Washington in ruining the mall. But now, they are icons (I AM NO WAY SAYING THIS PROJECT WILL BE AN ICON) and when viewed from a distance of 1000' feet or so, they hardly impact the vista, they stand out, but they dont ruin the view - they add to it.

Now, if I had my two cents, and I guess I do... I would lower the height of the towers, push them off to either side of the property and leave the vista from the park relatively untouched. I would suggest the developer did a balloon test to show how high the buildings would be and went around and took photos from various points around town. This is a common practice by builders to appease city councils and boards of supervisors about building heights and maintaining viewshed beauty.

[burt]

Echo Harbour may or may not materialize, but it has already extended an invitation to one tenant. See this story by Michael Martz in today's inRich:

http://www.inrich.com/cva/ric/news.apx.-co...12-13-0179.html

[heykey4]

Echo Harbour may or may not materialize, but it has already extended an invitation to one tenant. See this story by Michael Martz in today's inRich:

http://www.inrich.com/cva/ric/news.apx.-co...12-13-0179.html

I curious about Echo Harbour's development...and the concerns it's generating. Do people really spend so much time at Libby Hill Park that the construction of such buildings would ruin their lives? I've been by there a number of times since late summer and this fall, and there aren't many people if anyone hanging around there. Understandably, the view that inspired the city is a nice piece of nostalgia, but if people really cared about such things, I would think that a lot more of the city's and for that matter the region's historical assests would have been saved.

Before I go too far into my cynicism, I have questions about this project:

-Where exactly are the buildings in question going to be situated? Does it block the view of the James' bend looking downstream?

-Are people more worried about an 18 story building shooting up infront of their homes? Or are the objections more from those who think they'll go to Libby Hill Park to see the view?

-Is this a legitimate development? What I mean by that is, are the developers just waiting for the city to give the go ahead, or is it more like a, "wouldn't it be cool to have this here?" type mentality.

-In the end does all this really matter? Do the positives of this project outweigh the negatives? Or is it too early to tell?

I like the idea of this project, and I'd like to see it come to fruition.

[burt]

I curious about Echo Harbour's development...and the concerns it's generating. Do people really spend so much time at Libby Hill Park that the construction of such buildings would ruin their lives? I've been by there a number of times since late summer and this fall, and there aren't many people if anyone hanging around there. Understandably, the view that inspired the city is a nice piece of nostalgia, but if people really cared about such things, I would think that a lot more of the city's and for that matter the region's historical assests would have been saved.

Before I go too far into my cynicism, I have questions about this project:

-Where exactly are the buildings in question going to be situated? Does it block the view of the James' bend looking downstream?

-Are people more worried about an 18 story building shooting up infront of their homes? Or are the objections more from those who think they'll go to Libby Hill Park to see the view?

-Is this a legitimate development? What I mean by that is, are the developers just waiting for the city to give the go ahead, or is it more like a, "wouldn't it be cool to have this here?" type mentality.

-In the end does all this really matter? Do the positives of this project outweigh the negatives? Or is it too early to tell?

I like the idea of this project, and I'd like to see it come to fruition.

lch4, here is my reply to your questions (and you may be sure others will have completely different opinions), BUT starting with:

#1. NO, NO, NO, a thousand times NO. Echo Harbour will in no way affect the famous namesake riverbend view. It will be upstream of the two ugly white Lehigh Company silos. The myth of the view-blocking has been perpetuated and will probably remain even if the project is completed. In other words, it's hopeless to try to dispel the myth in the minds of some.

#2. Accommodation has been made to limit height of the tallest tower to 150 feet -- about 12 to 15 stories.

#3. It IS a legitimately proposed development.

#4. That's in the eyes and mind of the beholder. To dispel another myth, the developers of the project assure that their promenade will be available to the public and that the Capital Trail will use the promenade. Also, its dock MAY be made available to boat clubs and, perhaps, become a berth for ships like the Zuni. On the questionable side, it has not yet been made public as to how vehicular traffic will access the property. Another positive (or at least it was suggested in early news releases), the developers would assist in extension of the Canal Walk East.

Glad you are visiting us, lch4. Come often.

[wrldcoupe4]

Here's a rendering from the website ifdevelopment:

Since none of us have seen exactly how the view would be impacted by the structures, I won't comment on that aspect.

The city is finalizing settlement to gain possession of the Lehigh Cement property after which the silos will be razed and public space complementing the new marina will replace it.

As far as feasibility, I have my doubts. Even if the emergency access issue (it would be built on a floodplain) is resolved, I just don't see a project so dependent on condos being able to take off. Furthermore, the initial announcement said the condos would be "marketed nationwide" which to me sounds like "investors welcome." Is a half empty condo tower with overpriced resale asking prices best for the city? I'm hoping we learn from the investor sales mistakes made at Riverside. And unless the developer has funding in place already, getting funding for a 95% condo project in the current lending climate would be worthy of a standing ovation.

Regarding getting the "go ahead," my understanding is that the city is actually waiting for the developer to file certain necessary items before the city can move forward in the approval process.

[burt]

Thanks for posting the rendering, Coupe.

The base of the structure is on landfill that has built up the site to the level of Great Ship Lock. That's not to say the sub structure is above flood stage, but it's better protected than it was about a decade or so ago when the plot was raised a number of feet above high tide.

The proposed city marina will be subject to flooding -- no questiion about that -- and possibly portions of Echo Harbour's promenade.

Again about the obstructed view. Sections of the opposite shore upstream of Ancarrow Landing will be blotted out. The beloved riverbend will NOT be affected. Sorry if I keep repeating that, but whenever the word "view" pops up....oh, well, you get my message.

Side Bar: The developer, Mr. Ross, is the same person whose name is on the tower at 801 East Main which may convert to a hotel.

[Cadeho]

The Devil can have his hotel, but he can not have a portal to hell on this land.

I ECHO Burt, the bend is not at stake, one of Richmond's picturesque panoramic views not obtained from a privately owned building and opened to the public, is. The winter and fall is not going to see bustle at any of our parks. The parking lot for Belle Isle in cooler seasons is like an open pasture. The people of Church Hill and those on Libby Hill in particular do not want anything resembling a wall at the end of their hill or an interruption of the horizon. Also, the arguement Ross has that no one wants a view of the wastewater treatment plant or that that's all people can see from the hill makes no sense when he wants to sell that view. A maritime museum or aquarium with shops is the best bet for the property.

Oh and lch4, it would ruin my life so I'd have to leave Richmond forever and hate it for as long as I breathe.

[heykey4]

The Devil can have his hotel, but he can not have a portal to hell on this land.

I ECHO Burt, the bend is not at stake, one of Richmond's picturesque panoramic views not obtained from a privately owned building and opened to the public, is. The winter and fall is not going to see bustle at any of our parks. The parking lot for Belle Isle in cooler seasons is like an open pasture. The people of Church Hill and those on Libby Hill in particular do not want anything resembling a wall at the end of their hill or an interruption of the horizon. Also, the arguement Ross has that no one wants a view of the wastewater treatment plant or that that's all people can see from the hill makes no sense when he wants to sell that view. A maritime museum or aquarium with shops is the best bet for the property.

Oh and lch4, it would ruin my life so I'd have to leave Richmond forever and hate it for as long as I breathe.

Seriously? It'd ruin your life? You'd move away and hate this city forever? I'm going to assume that the statement was done with sarcasm, because to have loyalty for anything, from a sports team to a city, you have to stick with it through good times and bad. This city has done a lot of bad and mediocre things in the last 20 years and it doesn't look like that'll change for the most part in the future. We are a city that has great potential...however; we've been that city for a long time. Potential, however, doesn't go very far...

I at least give credit to those wanting to develop this land. But I do understand that there are those who don't wish for this building to be constructed. For whatever reason. Both sides will come up with good reasons for or against it. It would seem to make sense that the property owner can do what he wants with his land if he's following the law and zoning. After that, it's too bad for everyone else. If the zoning prohibits the building of a 15 story building, then he can go through the proper procedure to change it, but if it ultimately does not go in his favor...that's that. Or if it does go in his favor, that's that.

Just because there are those who want to enjoy an uninterrupted view of the horizon shouldn't stop someone from using their land to the fullest potential allowed.

Will this project benefit the city as a whole? If it would, then it should go forward. Now I can speak all high and mighty because it's not going to affect me on a daily basis. If it affects you and others, then that's a tougher question to ask because while the city as a whole is benefiting...you are not.

But as anyone who has lived 5 minutes on this Earth knows, you can never please everyone and to try is a ticket to Central State Hospital.

So I think the project should happen simply for the development of the city and improvement over what's there now. If it pans out that it won't happen, then I'm sure something will go there that'll be mediocre at best. We'll see.

[Cadeho]

No towers.

We have places all over the city in need of development and everyone seems just fine to let them lay as wastelands. There are many better uses for this land that could generate MORE money for the city than what's planned, but a lot of people take one proposal as the ultimate truth.

Yes it was sarcasm, but if it gets built, I will do everything I can to demolish it.

[ShadyGrove]

The city is finalizing settlement to gain possession of the Lehigh Cement property after which the silos will be razed and public space complementing the new marina will replace it.

This nugget really caught my attention! Does this mean new "public space" will replace those Silos in the near future? That would be great news! Does anybody have any info on what this project will look like? A park?

So help me get this straight - We'll have Rockett's extending up to the new City Marina, which will be next to "public space complementing the new marina", which is adjacent to the proposed Echo Harbor site / Great Shiplock park, which connects directly with Tobacco Row, all with the Capitol Trail running through it providing continuity and ensuring public access? It's exciting to actually see this stuff happening.

[wrldcoupe4]

From an RTD article a few weeks ago on the downtown master plan/Echo Harbour:

The city already is trying to buy the adjacent 1.5-acre property owned by Lehigh Cement Co. for parkland

I feel like I read something else that added that this purchase (through a form of eminent domain) is proceeding. This park would accompany and complement the new city marina.

You pretty much have everything correct. Rockett's will move north/west to the city marina, which will be adjacent to new park space along the riverfront, which is adjacent to the Echo Harbour site, which is adjacent to Great Shiplock Park, which is adjacent to Tobacco Row with the Capital Trail running the entire length and further. I've heard the city is looking into having the Rockett's developers masterplan development for other areas in the vicinity like the Fulton Gas Works site, but haven't seen what that may entail.

[ShadyGrove]

I've heard the city is looking into having the Rockett's developers masterplan development for other areas in the vicinity like the Fulton Gas Works site, but haven't seen what that may entail.

That is such an interesting site with amazing potential - I really hope they incorporate the existing structures (at leats some of them) into any new development there.

Not to wander too far off topic, but I heard Wilder talk about changes to the routing of E. Main around there. Does anyone know exactly what the plan/proposal is? Would this affect the Gas Works site?

[wrldcoupe4]

Wouldn't Nicholson be rerouted underneath Main St? I'm not completely sure...

[heykey4]

No towers.

We have places all over the city in need of development and everyone seems just fine to let them lay as wastelands. There are many better uses for this land that could generate MORE money for the city than what's planned, but a lot of people take one proposal as the ultimate truth.

Yes it was sarcasm, but if it gets built, I will do everything I can to demolish it.

Fair enough.

LOL...I just pictured you (even though I've never met you) as Elwood Blues saying "we're on a mission from God."

[burt]

I hope you are not contemplating joining the demolition crew, lch4. You're very level-headed, judging from your initial postings here.

A gem of a waterfront neckless would be a connection of Wilton on the James, the Town of Tree Hill, Rocketts Landing, the City Marina, Echo Harbour, Tobacco Row and Canal Walk. A snaggle tooth caused by the demolition of EH would spoil the smile.

[Icetera]

No towers.

We have places all over the city in need of development and everyone seems just fine to let them lay as wastelands. There are many better uses for this land that could generate MORE money for the city than what's planned, but a lot of people take one proposal as the ultimate truth.

Yes it was sarcasm, but if it gets built, I will do everything I can to demolish it.

I think that for every post complaining about the towers, they should add an additional story to them