Proposed: Echo Harbour

[burt]

Burt, the view of the bend is not the issue and really wasn't at all. The whole panorama of uninterrupted horizon is from Fulton Hill's Powhatan Hill Park, to Tree Hill in the distance, to sweeping forever of southside, then Manchester and downtown. Building Echo Harbour that high will be like being at an Imax movie and having NBA players standing in front of you the whole movie. You'll only get to see a part of the picture. Imagine being at a play and having a guy with a stovepipe hat seated in front of you and he refuses to remove it. You can't fully enjoy the show with such obnoxiousness. That's how Echo harbour with big towers will ruin the show nature provided with such a lookout over the river and the entire south bank. ... and no one notices the water treatment plant or cares that it's there.

Meet me up there Burt when you're here. I feel you're not seeing the same sights I do when I'm up there.

I'll be pleased to meet up with you at Libby Hill. I visit it several times on every Richmond visit. How about I pick up a couple of box lunches from Sally Bells either next Wednesday or Thursday at noon? Would you be available then? The weekend and other dates are not possible for me. We can picnic on the crest of the hill while enjoying the view that will be enhanced by Echo Harbour.

[Cadeho]

Unfortunately Burt, I wouldn't be able to meet for lunch on those days. I'll be at work all the way in Innsbrook and my lunch period is scheduled for 1:30 - 2:30... but sometimes I don't start right away. I'm off Fridays at the moment, but I also have jury duty possibly on Fridays this month... (I'm mad I won't be missing work!) I guess it'll be another time. I'll be sure to point out what you're missing up there that Echo Harbour will take away.

[burt]

Unfortunately Burt, I wouldn't be able to meet for lunch on those days. I'll be at work all the way in Innsbrook and my lunch period is scheduled for 1:30 - 2:30... but sometimes I don't start right away. I'm off Fridays at the moment, but I also have jury duty possibly on Fridays this month... (I'm mad I won't be missing work!) I guess it'll be another time. I'll be sure to point out what you're missing up there that Echo Harbour will take away.

Sorry you can't make it, Cam. I'm otherwise engaged Friday and other dates.

Neither of us is going to sell his views to the other; I've been going to Libby Hill since before you were born, so it's unlikely you could show me anything I haven't seen and appreciated. It might be the other way 'round.

If you're at the NFF Saturday, perhaps by some fluke of guessing who is who we'll run in to one another. Ciao!

[Cadeho]

I think some people here will arrange that our paths cross... that is if their own path crosses both of ours!

But I would love to know why you support this project with no alternatives or alterations. If a Richmond Martime Museum along with Richmond's largest fountain (that'll never go dry) gets proposed for the site, would you support that idea? I'd like to see the museum on that spot along with shops and such, but not so high. If one something gets proposed, are there no other choices? I do have a feeling that had a 5 story building been proposed, you'd be fine with it with no alterations or questions. Who says there's only one option?

[burt]

I think some people here will arrange that our paths cross... that is if their own path crosses both of ours!

But I would love to know why you support this project with no alternatives or alterations. If a Richmond Martime Museum along with Richmond's largest fountain (that'll never go dry) gets proposed for the site, would you support that idea? I'd like to see the museum on that spot along with shops and such, but not so high. If one something gets proposed, are there no other choices? I do have a feeling that had a 5 story building been proposed, you'd be fine with it with no alterations or questions. Who says there's only one option?

If there's going to be a Richmond Mariners Museum it would be stupid to put it anywhere other than the tip of Chapel Island. That's where the shipyards and city docks were located and some of the ruins remain. Motor access could be from a road off 14th Street below the flood wall and parallel to Norfolk/Southern tracks on the island. Foot access would be across the Great Ship Lock, just as it is today.

N/S has to be convinced to repair its Bascule bridge which impedes water traffic on the canal to, from and thru the Great Ship Lock.

Your suggestions that the Echo Harbour project has not been altered and re-altered to appease opponents is not worthy of comment.

There's a story in today's inRich about new marina construction at Intermediate Terminal and Rocketts Landing. Such work will render the Virginia Boat Club and VCU rowing teams homeless. Their boats ranging in length to 50 feet need indoor storage facilities that are now available in the Richmond Raft Company building, but it is scheduled for demolition. For generations, The Virginia Boat Club had a very attractive building on the south shore of Mayo Island with launching slips, restaurant/bar and meeting space. It survived many floods but was abandoned and demolished in the 1950's. Certainly it is a potential rebuilding site for the rowing sport. Also, some of the Echo Harbour renderings display a launching slip which would suggest its developers are amenable to boat club activities.

http://www.timesdispatch.com/cva/ric/news....10-06-0167.html

[wrldcoupe4]

The reason there's "only one" option is because the Echo Harbour folks OWN the land. I could propose a giant twirling disco ball but it wouldn't matter. If George Ross wants to do something else, he'll propose it. Otherwise, they are focused on this project. It's not like there is some sort of bid process.

[jbjust]

VCU really should take it upon themselves to build a beautiful boat house on the river. Having gone to school in Boston, the boathouses for Harvard, BC, BU, Northeastern, and MIT are some of the most beautiful structures on the Charles in my opinion.

[burt]

VCU really should take it upon themselves to build a beautiful boat house on the river. Having gone to school in Boston, the boathouses for Harvard, BC, BU, Northeastern, and MIT are some of the most beautiful structures on the Charles in my opinion.

The boat houses along the Schuylkill River in Philadelphia are neat, too. Perhaps VCU and Virginia Boat Club in combination could reconstruct the boat house that used to be on Mayo Island.

[Cadeho]

The reason there's "only one" option is because the Echo Harbour folks OWN the land. I could propose a giant twirling disco ball but it wouldn't matter. If George Ross wants to do something else, he'll propose it. Otherwise, they are focused on this project. It's not like there is some sort of bid process.

Had there been anything else proposed for the site, everyone here would still be for it, as long as it links all the development along the river.

Burt, I didn't say the project wasn't altered, I'm asking why are you in favor of this development, no ifs, no ands, and no buts? Had anything else been proposed... a 6 story water front project for low-income people... I feel you would have no objections.

Why is it that I must be the wrong one here? Always whatever I wish and want, if it doesn't groove with the general concensus, surely I must be crazy. There's always a better way to develop every parcel of land out there. Why settle for whatever comes along as is?

I'm all for Echo Harbour being built, but I'd rather Ross be considerate instead of rudely forcing his desires on the unwilling. He knows he's made many people unhappy with what he planned, but he refuses to get the idea. Great, you moved a tower to the right, you lopped off floors, but it's not enough. Why should people be forced to take vacations and trips to other cities to get great pictureque views when we have our own? But foolsihly we're willing to destroy what we have to make some rich guy's pocket fatter. That doesn't make sense at all. You know why I oppose the project as is, but I have no clue why you're supporting it other than for links. There is always a better way, and I'll be glad to show Ross if he could be contacted.

[TBurban]

I think some people here will arrange that our paths cross... that is if their own path crosses both of ours!

You'll have to give me your cell number again..my old phone went in the river with me this summer and I lost all my numbers

[Cadeho]

In the river!? See that's why I don't get in!

[Cadeho]

Had there been anything else proposed for the site, everyone here would still be for it, as long as it links all the development along the river.

Burt, I didn't say the project wasn't altered, I'm asking why are you in favor of this development, no ifs, no ands, and no buts? Had anything else been proposed... a 6 story water front project for low-income people... I feel you would have no objections.

Why is it that I must be the wrong one here? Always whatever I wish and want, if it doesn't groove with the general concensus, surely I must be crazy. There's always a better way to develop every parcel of land out there. Why settle for whatever comes along as is?

I'm all for Echo Harbour being built, but I'd rather Ross be considerate instead of rudely forcing his desires on the unwilling. He knows he's made many people unhappy with what he planned, but he refuses to get the idea. Great, you moved a tower to the right, you lopped off floors, but it's not enough. Why should people be forced to take vacations and trips to other cities to get great pictureque views when we have our own? But foolsihly we're willing to destroy what we have to make some rich guy's pocket fatter. That doesn't make sense at all. You know why I oppose the project as is, but I have no clue why you're supporting it other than for links. There is always a better way, and I'll be glad to show Ross if he could be contacted.

I'm waiting...

[burt]

I'm waiting...

You have made your point frequently, sometimes in rather intemperate language. I happen to like the idea of cleaning up the river front and transforming it into a lively residential and entertainment area. While I have said again and again that my preference would be for a mid-rise Watergate-type structure, a few higher buildings on the site bothers me not one whit. I'm convinced a majority of those who reside on and visit Libby Hill will adjust themselves to a VERY SMALL piece of the opposite river bank being blotted from view. Mr. Ross and his company either own or have an option to buy the land and have a right, within zoning strictures, to develop it as they wish. They have had meetings with concerned people and have altered their plans in gestures of appeasement more than once.

Let's just say you and I do not have a meeting of the minds on this. But there are others who share your views and will be happy to strike up a conversation. Perhaps you can find the address of Mr. Ross and express yourself directly to him.

[Cadeho]

You have made your point frequently, sometimes in rather intemperate language. I happen to like the idea of cleaning up the river front and transforming it into a lively residential and entertainment area. While I have said again and again that my preference would be for a mid-rise Watergate-type structure, a few higher buildings on the site bothers me not one whit. I'm convinced a majority of those who reside on and visit Libby Hill will adjust themselves to a VERY SMALL piece of the opposite river bank being blotted from view. Mr. Ross and his company either own or have an option to buy the land and have a right, within zoning strictures, to develop it as they wish. They have had meetings with concerned people and have altered their plans in gestures of appeasement more than once.

Let's just say you and I do not have a meeting of the minds on this. But there are others who share your views and will be happy to strike up a conversation. Perhaps you can find the address of Mr. Ross and express yourself directly to him.

Thank you Burt. Now I'm waiting on others.

I support the same things you do, but the height. But I still don't think this project is a go as it stands. Ross will have to get off his high hobbyhorse and be willing to make more adjustments. I wouldn't mind the place being below the horizon.

It would be nice to speak with Darth Sidious in person and seriously "express myself" directly to him. The company who owns the land, for some reason, doesn't have a number that shows up in whitepages.com. Maybe a road trip to northern Virginia? But he lives here right? I'll try every Ross in the book.

This won't be over until he has redesigned the project not to block the view. The project can carry on just as well and be a success.

[D_C]

Thank you Burt. Now I'm waiting on others.

I support the same things you do, but the height. But I still don't think this project is a go as it stands. Ross will have to get off his high hobbyhorse and be willing to make more adjustments. I wouldn't mind the place being below the horizon.

It would be nice to speak with Darth Sidious in person and seriously "express myself" directly to him. The company who owns the land, for some reason, doesn't have a number that shows up in whitepages.com. Maybe a road trip to northern Virginia? But he lives here right? I'll try every Ross in the book.

This won't be over until he has redesigned the project not to block the view. The project can carry on just as well and be a success.

O.K., I drove up there today because I couldn't remember what the view looked like exactly. From what I have read off of this post the past couple of weeks, it seems that the roofline of the highest building to the east would be just a little bit higher than the ground level of the park or somewhere thereabouts, and the other buildings to the east would be shorter. If that is the case, I could see the viewshed being obstructed somewhat. The viewshed of the river from the park is on a downward slope and I believe the buildings would slice a bit of the river view away for people standing on the ground. I don't believe the second story views of the river would be affected though. I don't know that the entire viewshed would be ruined, but I definately feel that there will be some impact. I don't frequent that park, but it is obvious that a lot of other folks do. It was quite busy up there with a lot of people in the park. The riverfront in that area could definately use the facelift and improvements.

Maybe the only real way to see if there would be a definate impact on the area would be to drag a couple of cranes out to the site and raise them up the height that the proposed buildings would be and tie a tarp between them or something. Then observe the river from the park and see if the buildings are a detriment or not to the viewshed.

[Downtowner]

you all people are getting too stupid with all this. Who cares about the view cause certainly I dont. I mean how many people do you actually think look at that view? Plus Cam if your looking for other people to change there opinions besides burt youve come to the wrong place. If your not satisfied with anything than thats being just as greedy as the developer. I mean for christ sakes its only a view its not like the world is going to end with the apocalypse. Why are people so concerned with stuff that they probably rarely visit?

[Downtowner]

I mean if you wanna get a good view go move to the mountains where theres nothing but mountains and rivers and creeks all over. Its Green City. But the mountains are barf to me nothing to do there.

[Cadeho]

you all people are getting too stupid with all this. Who cares about the view cause certainly I dont. I mean how many people do you actually think look at that view? Plus Cam if your looking for other people to change there opinions besides burt youve come to the wrong place. If your not satisfied with anything than thats being just as greedy as the developer. I mean for christ sakes its only a view its not like the world is going to end with the apocalypse. Why are people so concerned with stuff that they probably rarely visit?

And you were throwing a tantrum because I didn't go to a baseball game?

[Cadeho]

I mean if you wanna get a good view go move to the mountains where theres nothing but mountains and rivers and creeks all over. Its Green City. But the mountains are barf to me nothing to do there.

If you want tall buildings, move to New York. Like you, I don't want to have to move or visit places that have what we already have or should have.

DC, I thank you for replying. I think it would be a good idea to set up a crane to show the height and what may be obstructed. However, Ross et al cannot be contacted to try this idea. I believe our friend missed what you said about how active that park is. It's always active during the day until dusk and with good weather too.

[Downtowner]

Cam why should I move to NYC for Tall buildings when we have them here? Which I still want our skyline to be more than what it is. But I mean that view means nothing. I mean why do people see it as such a great thing like its Jesus or something?

[Cadeho]

Cam why should I move to NYC for Tall buildings when we have them here? Which I still want our skyline to be more than what it is. But I mean that view means nothing. I mean why do people see it as such a great thing like its Jesus or something?

Why should I move to the mountains when we have vistas of our own? Our buildings don't make us any less of a city. Why do you see tall buildings as such a great thing like Jesus or something?

[mclawsdrive]

Why should I move to the mountains when we have vistas of our own? Our buildings don't make us any less of a city. Why do you see tall buildings as such a great thing like Jesus or something?

So now Ross is saying he's more popular than Jesus? Burn his records!!!

[jbjust]

Count me as one that could live without the famous "view," but who thinks that the pseudo-70's-Jetsons apartments currently proposed look absolutely terrible. I think a hotel and commercial development would fit in much better there.

[burt]

Count me as one that could live without the famous "view," but who thinks that the pseudo-70's-Jetsons apartments currently proposed look absolutely terrible. I think a hotel and commercial development would fit in much better there.

jbjust, please !!! Don't perpetuate the "famous view" theory; opponents love to latch on to that. Echo Harbour will NOT blot out anything "famous" - merely a sliver of the James west of those dreadful silos. The namesake river bend will remain as visible as ever.

I agree that the proposed buildings do have a Miami Beach look. And it appears from renderings that entry to apartments would be from wide-open balconies exposed to Richmond winters. A more sedate, lower design with interior hallways and individual balconies would be desirable, IMO.

But I do like the base of the proposed buildings and the new wharf/boardwalk.

[Cadeho]

The "famous/historical" view is NOT the issue at hand. The project won't affect that. What would be affected is one of the last panaramas in the city of the city accessible by the general public.