Traffic Congestion and Highway Construction

[sakami]

2 hours ago, pathb said:

http://wfae.org/post/red-light-cameras-still-under-discussion-despite-hesitations#stream/0

Bringing back the red light camera topic, though it didn't generate a lot of feedback last time I posted about it. 

Marcus Jones has advised City Council against installing red light cameras, arguing that there are more effective safety measures available through the City's (funded?  unfunded?) Vision Zero program.  I'm curious to hear the opinions of members of this group - red light cameras are politically unpopular but seem to be very effective at reducing the types of crashes that are most likely to produce fatality.  In general, automatic enforcement (red light running and speed cameras) seems to me a necessary part of any credible Vision Zero program, alongside a heavy dose of engineering improvements that make geometric changes to streets to reduce the possibility of speeding automobiles in urban environments.  Jones has been tasked with researching alternative safety measures and presenting those to Council in the coming weeks. 

I thought it was very enlightening that during their discussion last week one of the reasons a council member gave for not using the cameras was a potential increase in rear end accidents. While getting rear ended sucks it is usually not a life-threatening accident when going 8 mph. But a t-bone accident injures everyone involved, potentially fatally. I can't decide if I am for or against them but the lack of a more thoughtful discussion around their use was discouraging. 

[CLT2014]

I wonder what percentage of red light running accidents in Charlotte are at intersections where the left turn is a yield / flashing yellow arrow. Those seem to be the most popular to run and very dangerous rather that going straight through a light (which people might do if highly distracted, drunk, or very careless).

The situation at the yield lights often results in two cars hanging out in the intersection waiting for the light to turn red (because opposite flow traffic is so heavy that's the only way you get across), then it turns red, and the third car who wasn't yet in the intersection tries to join the other two cars getting through while the light goes solid yellow/ red. Meanwhile the cross traffic light is now green and BAM they slam into car #3 who tried to make the yield light. 

That chicken time when the opposite direction traffic has a yellow and the yielding left turn driver has a solid yellow (and knows red is coming), seems to be dangerous too, but not sure what the stats say. The yielding driver might mistake the other driven to be slowing down rather than proceeding through, which can also result in an accident. Not sure if cameras can solve the left turn / yield folks and the game of chicken with the cars going straight.  

 

Edited April 9, 2018 by CLT2014

[Sigma]

21 minutes ago, CLT2014 said:

I wonder what percentage of red light running accidents in Charlotte are at intersections where the left turn is a yield / flashing yellow arrow. Those seem to be the most popular to run and very dangerous rather that going straight through a light (which people might do if highly distracted, drunk, or very careless).

The situation at the yield lights often results in two cars hanging out in the intersection waiting for the light to turn red (because opposite flow traffic is so heavy that's the only way you get across), then it turns red, and the third car who wasn't yet in the intersection tries to join the other two cars getting through while the light goes solid yellow/ red. Meanwhile the cross traffic light is now green and BAM they slam into car #3 who tried to make the yield light. 

That chicken time when the opposite direction traffic has a yellow and the yielding left turn driver has a solid yellow (and knows red is coming), seems to be dangerous too, but not sure what the stats say. The yielding driver might mistake the other driven to be slowing down rather than proceeding through, which can also result in an accident. Not sure if cameras can solve the left turn / yield folks and the game of chicken with the cars going straight.  

 

This has gotten horrible in Charlotte in recent years. I have had slam on the brakes multiple times because of people trying to make it through flashing yellow lights. This also includes people continuing to turn left after the green left arrow starts to flash yellow, they just keep on going as if they don't need to yield.

[CLT2014]

14 minutes ago, Sigma said:

This has gotten horrible in Charlotte in recent years. I have had slam on the brakes multiple times because of people trying to make it through flashing yellow lights. This also includes people continuing to turn left after the green left arrow starts to flash yellow, they just keep on going as if they don't need to yield.

A good amount of people don't know what a flashing yellow means either. It isn't a requirement to learn it when you get your license here and a flashing yellow isn't used in some areas of the country. In some places a left arrow is either solid green and you have the right away or it is a green circle, and you yield. I was in the car with a co-worker visiting from out of state and he ran a flashing yellow and we almost got hit. I said WTH!! and in his mind, he had never seen a flashing yellow arrow so he thought it meant go, but at a slower speed (I know dumb logic)...... 

Figuring out improvements to the traffic patterns, especially with left yields and such will go a lot further in my opinion. I would guess accidents are lower at intersections where all drivers have protected green turns and only drivers turning right have to yield on red. Our congestion is so bad though that protected left turns would add to cycle times and probably make traffic worse so we use the more dangerous option for the sake of speed. 

Edited April 9, 2018 by CLT2014

[Matthew.Brendan]

I’d be extremely pissed if I start getting tickets for clipping the tail end of a yellow. 

Now if they would begin ticketing the people whole actively continue through intersections on a left arrow well after it’s turned red that would be great. That chit is flagarant. I routinely see 1, 2, even 3 cars follow through with the turn AFTER the arrow has turned red. It’s ridiculous. 

[Spartan]

On 4/9/2018 at 9:23 AM, pathb said:

http://wfae.org/post/red-light-cameras-still-under-discussion-despite-hesitations#stream/0

Bringing back the red light camera topic, though it didn't generate a lot of feedback last time I posted about it. 

Marcus Jones has advised City Council against installing red light cameras, arguing that there are more effective safety measures available through the City's (funded?  unfunded?) Vision Zero program.  I'm curious to hear the opinions of members of this group - red light cameras are politically unpopular but seem to be very effective at reducing the types of crashes that are most likely to produce fatality.  In general, automatic enforcement (red light running and speed cameras) seems to me a necessary part of any credible Vision Zero program, alongside a heavy dose of engineering improvements that make geometric changes to streets to reduce the possibility of speeding automobiles in urban environments.  Jones has been tasked with researching alternative safety measures and presenting those to Council in the coming weeks. 

Vision Zero is an adopted policy, but it's not currently funded. It's being considered in the current budgeting process, but until Council adopts the FY19 budget in June nobody knows if it will be funded. I agree that funding Vision Zero would be more effective in the long run. Red light cameras are en effective tool, though, so IMO they shouldn't be eliminated from the Vision Zero toolbox.

[UPNoDa]

"I was in the car with a co-worker visiting from out of state and he ran a flashing yellow and we almost got hit. I said WTH!! and in his mind, he had never seen a flashing yellow arrow so he thought it meant go, but at a slower speed (I know dumb logic)...... "

 

Funny,.... this very thing happened to me the other day on a flashing yellow arrow getting on Indy from Idlewild and even though there was no oncoming traffic, I slowly proceeded thru the intersection to turn left but the dude behind me layed on his horn like I was not turning fast enough for him. I was merely creeping thru that intersection using caution but apparently, not fast enough for the guy behind me.

Has to look it up

ncdot.gov official rule

2012 FYA.pdf

[KJHburg]

Various I-77 express lanes construction from I-85 down to I-277  today.   

[Cadi40]

Not being an advocate for cutting down trees but you can see the skyline from farther away than previously.

[KJHburg]

New southbound exit lanes from I-277 Brookshire  to southbound I-77 today. 

[Nolan]

I'm struggling to see how the HOT flyover from southbound 77 will enter Brookshire's median, NCDOT nor I-77 Mobility has updated the plans on their websites.  Originally, the flyover was supposed to go over the ramp from Brookshire westbound to 77 southbound.  Also there are changes to the I-85 interchange that are different from NCDOT's website.  

[southslider]

^SB 77-EL (HOT) will enter SB 277 (Brookshire) as the inner left lane, while NB 277 will enter NB 77-EL from the inner right lane. The former will cause a mad merge across 277 to exit by Church St, while the latter will be backed up by selfish drivers getting into the free 77N exit from Brookshire at the last minute, despite crossing a solid white line and a queue extending back to Graham St.

And 85 access has been added to/from the Express Lanes, though only to/from University/Concord, not Airport/Gastonia.  SB 85 will split off left just before the congested, slow-speed ramp. NB 85 will exit to the left of the free exit from NB 77.  On NB 77 south of 85, you can see the parallel bridge being built over the highway to take the new two express lanes and the 85 exit over the highway. 

Edited April 13, 2018 by southslider

[NcSc74]

17 hours ago, southslider said:

^SB 77-EL (HOT) will enter SB 277 (Brookshire) as the inner left lane, while NB 277 will enter NB 77-EL from the inner right lane. The former will cause a mad merge across 277 to exit by Church St, while the latter will be backed up by selfish drivers getting into the free 77N exit from Brookshire at the last minute, despite crossing a solid white line and a queue extending back to Graham St.

And 85 access has been added to/from the Express Lanes, though only to/from University/Concord, not Airport/Gastonia.  SB 85 will split off left just before the congested, slow-speed ramp. NB 85 will exit to the left of the free exit from NB 77.  On NB 77 south of 85, you can see the parallel bridge being built over the highway to take the new two express lanes and the 85 exit over the highway. 

So the pylons we see now are for the flyover portion?  I wondered about the same thing.  I am unaware of any change.

[southslider]

^Yes, flyover for SB 77 to 277, but underground for 277 to NB 77.

 

[AuLukey]

I really hope it’s in the plans to have highway polls dividing the toll lanes from the free lanes. A solid white lane does nothing to prevent people from diving in and out. Sure, laws; but how often does this happen with HOV lanes already? They’re proven to reduce crashes and improve traffic flow.
Example: South Florida I-95 http://www.miamiherald.com/news/traffic/article168641872.html

[southslider]

^Paint generally works, if the penalty for crossing it is a toll with extra administrative fees mailed to the registered owner of the photographed vehicle.

[KJHburg]

The Hawthorne Ave bridge or lack there of today.  When is this going to reopen?  Looks a long way off to me.  Independence Blvd 

[Third Strike]

10 minutes ago, KJHburg said:

The Hawthorne Ave bridge or lack there of today.  When is this going to reopen?  Looks a long way off to me.  Independence Blvd 

I want to say mid-2019.

[Matthew.Brendan]

What’s the pedestrian and bicycle access going to look like across the new bridge?

[southslider]

^Wider sidewalks and buffered bike lanes

 

[tozmervo]

2 hours ago, Matthew.Brendan said:

What’s the pedestrian and bicycle access going to look like across the new bridge?

There's a rendering in one of the GL newsletters. http://charlottenc.gov/cats/transit-planning/gold-line/Documents/GL2 FAQ _ Hawthorne Lane Bridge.pdf#search=hawthorne bridge

[NDL]

On 4/9/2018 at 4:43 PM, Matthew.Brendan said:

I’d be extremely pissed if I start getting tickets for clipping the tail end of a yellow. 

Now if they would begin ticketing the people whole actively continue through intersections on a left arrow well after it’s turned red that would be great. That chit is flagarant. I routinely see 1, 2, even 3 cars follow through with the turn AFTER the arrow has turned red. It’s ridiculous. 

 

 

As much as I purpose to follow most traffic laws, and as much as I purpose to stop for red lights (and have an issue with those who run red lights), I *despise* red light cameras:

RED LIGHT CAMERA'S ARE PROVEN TO INCREASE CERTAIN TYPES OF TRAFFIC ACCIDENTS:

http://time.com/3643077/red-light-cams-rear-end-collisions-chicago/

https://www.caranddriver.com/columns/rear-end-crashes-go-up-after-red-light-cameras-go-in

https://www.motorists.org/blog/red-light-cameras-increase-accidents-5-studies-that-prove-it/

 

 

 

[hinsp0]

Red light cameras also raise serious legal concerns regarding one’s right to the presumption or innocence, right to confront the accuser (here, a municipal government), and right to due process.

[NDL]

On 4/18/2018 at 8:02 AM, hinsp0 said:

Red light cameras also raise serious legal concerns regarding one’s right to the presumption or innocence, right to confront the accuser (here, a municipal government), and right to due process.

Indeed.

One of the biggest issues I have with the camera's, aside from modifying an operator's behavior into a reactionary brake slamming event, is that a camera cannot discern driver intent.

If I have got a person tailgating me, whose grill and headlights I cannot see in my rearview mirror, be sure that I am not slamming on my brakes to stop for a just-turning-red light.

Likewise, while up in NY, there was an occasion where an intersection was free and clear, yet the entire intersection was covered in black ice.  I was operating a large transit bus at the time, supposedly equipped with ABS (which I later found to be defective - warning lights were off, however).  Again...the intersection was free and clear, and a slight application of the brakes had the bus moving sideways.  Had I continued on the brakes, I surely would've lost control of the bus, and taken out a utility pole.  Fortunately, because the intersection was free and clear, I kept the bus rolling through the intersection, safely.  Again...in such situations, an officer can discern road conditions and driver intent; a camera cannot (nor does a camera care). 

I HATE red light cameras.

 

[Spartan]

On 4/17/2018 at 7:26 PM, NDL said:

 

As much as I purpose to follow most traffic laws, and as much as I purpose to stop for red lights (and have an issue with those who run red lights), I *despise* red light cameras:

RED LIGHT CAMERA'S ARE PROVEN TO INCREASE CERTAIN TYPES OF TRAFFIC ACCIDENTS:

http://time.com/3643077/red-light-cams-rear-end-collisions-chicago/

https://www.caranddriver.com/columns/rear-end-crashes-go-up-after-red-light-cameras-go-in

https://www.motorists.org/blog/red-light-cameras-increase-accidents-5-studies-that-prove-it/

And yet they've also been shown to prevent crash types that result in fatalities. Which crash would you rather have: a fender bender when you have a yellow light or a car slam in to the side of you when you have a green light?