Long Term Rail and CATS Transit Plans

[Sabaidee]

The BRT buses that Las Vegas uses was designed by a French company and the buses are called Civis and it uses an optical guidance system with double dashed markings in the roadbed. It is currently the only BRT bus that is capable of traveling in narrow corridors, the driver don't even have to touch the steering wheel until he has to incase of emergency like debris or objects blocking the right of way. Also the steering is placed in the center of the bus rather than on the right side like regular buses.

[dubone]

I have separated our mega-transit thread into the specific projects. We'll keep this thread for discussions of the overall system and miscellaneous transit subjects.

Historic Trolley/Trolley Barn

http://www.urbanplanet.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=276

South LRT

http://www.urbanplanet.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=43

North Commuter Rail

http://www.urbanplanet.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=5058

Gateway Station

http://www.urbanplanet.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=17856

Northeast LRT

http://www.urbanplanet.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=2579

West and Southeast BRT/LRT/Streetcar

http://www.urbanplanet.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=17857

Center City Streetcar

http://www.urbanplanet.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=246

Hybrid Busses

http://www.urbanplanet.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=17864

[RiverwoodCLT]

This is the French made BRT

They had one here in Charlotte at Eastland Mall a few years ago. I took some pictures of it but can't find them at the present. The cost for one of the units was about 1 million.

[dubone]

I haven't seen this before, but the FTA considers the current Independence Blvd HOV lanes as a BRT demonstration project.

http://www.fta.dot.gov/2400_7270_ENG_HTML.htm

[MZT]

Another reason why I suspect BRT will be the choice on Independence. Easier to keep extending the infrastructure that's already developed.

[RiverwoodCLT]

This is the unit that was at Eastland Mall in 2003.

[DigitalSky]

Wow, that doesn't even look like a bus.

I like the French one better though, it looks more sleek.

[MZT]

A few other thoughts. If the SE does get trains, I wonder if it would become political dynamite to put BRT on the west side. I can see the howling now: "Charlotte Leaders Forget West Side, Like Always"

FWIW, I think the BRT busses are pretty cool and futuristic looking. If the transit plan had not called for rail anywhere, but ran BRT down a few other high traffic corridors (creating maybe a 7 spoke system instead of 5) I think it would have still been attractive to develop.

[dubone]

I have separated our mega-transit thread into the specific projects. We'll keep this thread for discussions of the overall system and miscellaneous transit subjects.

EDIT:

I have merged back the longer term projects back into this general thread. The projects that will see significant progress in the upcoming year will remain separate threads:

South LRT

http://www.urbanplanet.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=43

North Commuter Rail and Gateway Station

http://www.urbanplanet.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=5058

Center City Streetcar

http://www.urbanplanet.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=246

[orulz]

Getting off subject here, but...

Amtrak has a weekly special on the Carolinian for December 1 - December 15.

$25 each way from Charlotte - DC, which means a $50 round trip - that's cheaper than driving, even when you split the gas with 2 people, and WAY better when you figure in how expensive parking in DC is. Why the heck would you want a car in DC anyway when they have the Metro?

[sax184]

Getting off subject here, but...

Amtrak has a weekly special on the Carolinian for December 1 - December 15.

$25 each way from Charlotte - DC, which means a $50 round trip - that's cheaper than driving, even when you split the gas with 2 people, and WAY better when you figure in how expensive parking in DC is. Why the heck would you want a car in DC anyway when they have the Metro?

Orulz-

Is it gone now? Where can I look in the future to learn about these discounts?

Thanks-

[orulz]

Oops, looks like I gave the wrong URL. http://tickets.amtrak.com/itd/amtrak/WeeklySpecials is the proper location for finding the Amtrak weekly specials.

And yes, the special on the Carolinian is not there anymore (they usually don't have any specials during Thanksgiving week because the trains all sell out regardless). It may or may not show up again next week, though.

[dubone]

Maybe this is way too late in the process to be raising fundamental questions about the Northeast line, but I was just noticing the freight and Amtrak tracks through Northeast Charlotte. It goes through NoDa, then along Old Concord Road, goes very close to UNCC, and on through Harrisburg, Concord and Kannapolis.

The corridor runs about 600 yards away from UNCC. A station on the corridor could be easily walkale from or to the campus.

My question is, why wasn't/isn't commuter rail being considered along this corridor? I think this is the same corridor as the SEHSR Amtrak corridor, so perhaps that is the reason. It seems to me, though, that with that corridor receiving so much state-sponsored investment, that it would be wise to piggy-back on that corridor for transit in the Northeast beyond NoDa. With the corridor improvements already completed or planned, it is possible that commuter rail could go on the line without any additional corridor investments other than stations.

If there are plans to extend the NE line to LMS, Concord, and/or Kannapolis, using this corridor will save quite a bit of money, as a large railroad bridge already exists over 485 (aerial image here. The corridor runs 3-5 miles from LMS and Concord Mills, with no existing rail spurs in the area. Perhaps a new spur corridor could be created with Bruton Smith's money. By using the existing freight and Amtrak corridor, it could solve the issues where Smith wants something that will be running within a few years. The spur to LMS could be potentially be built with private money, and then a few trains could be run on race weekends.

I think CATS's plans to extend the South LRT to NoDa is still a good plan. They could allow for transfers to LRT in NoDa, with LRT then going by the CTC and then on toward Pineville, and with Commuter Rail continuing on to the Gateway Station.

What do you railroad experts think? Surely I'm missing something about this corridor, or else it seems like it should have been considered more deeply by CATS before they decided on LRT. Is it too busy? Are Amtrak trains allowed to go on tracks that commuter rail are not allowed on?

[orulz]

This is a very busy line, seeing in the neighborhood of 30-40 freight trains each day. A line being busy does not necessarily preclude sharing it between commuter, intercity, and freight trains, but it raises the bar of necessary investment before conflicts and delays can be eliminated. You'd probably need quadruple tracks as far as Concord and triple tracks to the end of the line (kannapolis? china grove? salisbury? spencer?) before delays would be reduced to an acceptable level.

I also think CATS and Charlotte want light rail to run at least as far as the university and as close to campus as possible, since that's a huge destination and source for riders all in one. Universities and transit are generally a good combination, and commuter rail with 12 trains each way every day won't cut it for the complicated and varied schedules of university employees and students.

[dubone]

Are any extra tracks planned for this corridor as part of the SEHSR project?

Thanks for the information. I was thinking that the line might be upgraded enough already to simply add trains and stations. If new tracks are necessary, it would probably make that route as or more expensive than the TTA project.

[orulz]

The SEHSR project suggests restoring the NCRR between Greensboro and Charlotte to a double-track line, plus laying a third track over part of the route. I don't remember where the three-track sections would be off the top of my head. According to their traffic analyses, this would be enough to accommodate 18 or 20 intercity trains per day, plus a moderate increase in freight traffic. If I recall correctly, they made accomodations for a few daily commuter trains between Charlotte and Concord, but it really wasn't very many. You can read the report for yourself to find out more details.

It kind of makes you wonder when you think about it. A freeway can accommodate thousands of cars per hour, while a mixed-traffic railroad can accommodate only a few dozen trains each day.

[monsoon]

My question is, why wasn't/isn't commuter rail being considered along this corridor?

Haha, it should be obvious, it was politics.

When they were considering options for the 3 new corridors, NE, SE and West, (the North and South had pretty much been settled years earlier) word got out that only one of these lines woud get rail and the rest would get BRT for cost reasons. So a political alliance was born between the North and University (NE) folks. The University folk said they would support the North line being built next as commuter rail, if in return they would support the University line getting LRT. They did not want commuter rail or enhanced buses.

And that is what happened. The North line will be built next, the University area will get LRT (personally I think it is ill suited for it) and the SE and West were left with buses. Expect more political deals before it is all said and done. Remember the decisons on what goes where are political ones and make for strange bedfellows since the votes are shared among Charlotte, the towns, the county and the NCDOT.

[MZT]

There is relatively good density on the NE line to Sugar Creek Road. Although these aren't viewed as very "desirable" neighborhoods, they are full of working class people who would use mass transit.

Where it becomes dubious, is beyond the 29/49 split. Especially if UNCC isn't conveniently served.

[monsoon]

There is relatively good density on the NE line to Sugar Creek Road.

I would tend to disagree with this statement. Once you get beyond the brookshire freeway it quickly reverts to single family housing and not much of it at that. There are a few condos being built right on Davidson in Noda, but nothing that would support the ridership needed for a LRT. The area has been really slow to develop, and I am not sure that a LRT would help much.

However they have made a substantial in the basic infrastructure to support Light Rail. It does make sense to extend thet trains to more areas of the city and the NE line is probably the most logical one to do since I can't think of any other areas that don't have the same issues. I think they should stop the train just north of UNCC however and not bother with extending it further.

I'm not sure if I would want to ride on this train at night given some of the very high crime areas that it is going to travel through.

[MZT]

Considering the announcement of delays on the South Corridor, the odds this leg will also face financial headwinds is high. I'll be pleasantly surprised if the bridge across 485 gets built, but I'd say that's becoming more doubtful each month.

I think there's another CATS presentation on the NE plans next week, they may drop some hints about how serious they are about building the line that far out.

[atlrvr]

It seems to me that CATS should acquire a easement on the north side of 485, and then work with the city to increase the zoning their to support a very high density, and then use a synthetic TIF to build the bridge and extend the line the last little bit using property tax generated from the development around the last station.

[dubone]

What about Bruton Smith/LMS money for everything from 485 to LMS?

[monsoon]

That was an easy way to get his name in the news. I doubt there are any funds there.

[dubone]

That may be true, but I'll bet LMS has a budget for parking and pedestrian bridges and shuttles, and other transportation elements to get people to LMS during races. They might have a pretty high dollar amount from that budget that they could be willing to contribute to mass transit. That is especially true if they view transit as a status item or as competitive advantage over other speedways.

We'll see. Considering the NorthEast LRT presentations have the line stopping short of 485, you are probably right that the offer of money was not serious.

[monsoon]

In 25 years, they will be discussing on UrbanGalaxy.org, what idiots we were for not building trains into Cabarrus county.