Long Term Rail and CATS Transit Plans

[Miesian Corners]

Hello UP. Just got back from a little European jaunt. All I can say is that my little Peugeot 307 I rented was both fast and got great mileage. Trouble is that even with its tiny fuel tank, it cost

[DigitalSky]

^that's really cool about hte parking garages

[Miesian Corners]

Here are a couple of pics of the trip that are relevant.

First is a pic of the light rail system in Strasburg, France running through the beautiful 17th Century heart of the city. The man getting off the train is not me.

The second is what I would like to see here under the new rail lines for Amtrak when it comes through uptown Charlottte in Third Ward. The pic is of the Friedrichstra

[dubone]

that is a great idea to use the area under the tracks as a farmers market or area for stores. Do you know if ncdot plans to rebuild the tracks that are already there? i just though they were planning to add a track or two and widen some bridges but otherwise leave as is. it would be awesome if they open it up like and have pedestrian and some more car crossing throughout the stretch.

the light rail trains look awesome. they look somewhat like ours, but ours are maybe a little less sleek. It will still look much more 'charlotte' than the grittier more industrial looking commuter or dmu trains planned for rdu and the n line.

Would CATS be more cool if it were CAT

[monsoon]

MSA discussion moved to its own thread here.

[monsoon]

This Article in todays News & Observer in Raleigh about the TTA commuter rail system as a few interesting things to say about the Charlotte LRT. One thing I noted was the federal rules were tightened this year for the kind of system they will approve, and what I got from it was the South LRT would not have qualified if they were seeking permission today. That does not bode well for the rest of CATS plans since the S. LRT is projected to have the highest ridership in the system.

Also as noted, don't expect any support at all from our Senators Dole and Burr. Remember that next time they run for election.

[nyxmike]

This Article in todays News & Observer in Raleigh about the TTA commuter rail system as a few interesting things to say about the Charlotte LRT. One thing I noted was the federal rules were tightened this year for the kind of system they will approve, and what I got from it was the South LRT would not have qualified if they were seeking permission today. That does not bode well for the rest of CATS plans since the S. LRT is projected to have the highest ridership in the system.

Also as noted, don't expect any support at all from our Senators Dole and Burr. Remember that next time they run for election.

Well, that would be pretty stupid if there was just one line from downtown to I-485 - why would the federal government approve of it and not help build the rest of the system - if so, then they just wasted a bunch of money. All the lines feed off each other, and the Northeast line is an extension of the South (and now Rock Hill wants an extension too). I can see this line having pretty high ridership in the future if these extensions are built. Think about it - they won't fund it unless the numbers are there, but if the numbers/density are there, then the cost of the line will be extremely expensive and a right of way will be hard to obtain (meaning federal money will be hard to obtain). If they build it earlier, then it's cheaper, the right of way is there, and land use plans cause future development to reach certain densities and as a result, more ridership (and sustainable development) - It's a vicious cycle.

[dubone]

i think that the west line, the north line, and the center city lines all fall under the Small Starts program (less than $250m). The NE line to NoDa will be an extension of the S line, so that also may fit into cost effectiveness formulas.

as far as TTA goes... i haven't paid enough attention to that project in the last few years, but my jaw dropped when i saw that it is now almost $800m!

I was likewise shocked that our own South line ballooned to $450m. the other lines in charlotte can be cost effective ONLY the designers try hard to prevent expensive line items like grade separations where a signal would work well enough. I think once these projects start getting off the ground because of inherent cost savings (like existing rail corridors, etc), but then the designers try to make it into a lexus when a toyota would do. I'm glad we're still getting our lexus on the south line... but hopefully the new scrutiny will prevent some of the expensive bridges on the other lines except where absolutely necessary.

[monsoon]

The TTA system is hugely expensive compared to the S. LRT & N. commuter rail combined. I think a lot of what happens in the future in NC really depends upon what happens on the S. LRT. If the ridership numbers are there, then we will see more projects. If not, well then we might have to wait much longer.

[DigitalSky]

i think we might have to wait^...

[tiblerbrit]

http://www.charlotte.com/mld/charlotte/new...cs/12819932.htm

Wow, this guy seems like a real genius, I really hope he gets elected. That way we can build our rail lines based on who HE talks to, instead of computer generated models. The airport line is the least important and the fact that he compares success of airport lines to Atlanta (busiest airport in the world), New York, and Boston is also a joke.

[dubone]

why in the world would a mayoral candidate speak like that about a line that is already being built and has been funded after going through a rigorous federal cost-benefit review. The light rail has been scrapped as an option on the west line because it cant even come close to meeting the numbers.

My gosh, can the democrats not do any better in this city than craig madans?

what on God's green earth is "entertainment ridership"? does he think tourists are going to take a ride between the airport and downtown to see the scenery on wilkinson boulevard like they do on the historic trolley? does he think the feds will pay for a four mile merry-go-round?

is he insane?

[ngp]

Haha, I just read that and came here to see if anybody had posted it yet. That guy really amuses/saddens me.

Madans was one of a handful of candidates who appeared at the Breakfast Forum, a largely African American group. He called the system a victim of "bad management and bad planning" and said he would lobby to fire transit management.

Maybe it's just a pathetic attempt to gain support from the African-American community. Hopefully it backfires.

[peaceloveunderstanding]

I like the numbers at the bottom.

Ridership Projections

...South Boulevard rail line would carry 9,100 passengers a day in its first year. In 2025, ... 18,300.

On the west corridor, ....daily ridership is projected at 12,800 by 2025. .... that's not enough to win federal money needed to develop light rail.

[nyxmike]

I still do not understand how anyone with a brain cannot comprehend the fact that this transit system is being built for the future - does anyone think of the future anymore, or is it just about a quick-fix now? I wish some opponents in Charlotte would realize that I-77, I-485, and Independence Boulevard (the roads everyone wants more lanes on/complete now) are under the control of the state. What is Charlotte suppose to do, wait around for 20 years before the state actually gets to it, or (hopefully) build a successful transit system to give people an option. Everyone is just going to have to learn to use mass transit and change the way they live - I don't understand the "but I don't want to give up the privacy of my car" argument - what do you do in a car any differently if you were riding a train? Because you actually might have to sit next to someone?? Boo hoo. Buy headphones and listen to music, read a book or the newspaper, unless you have a habit of picking your nose or jerk*** off, I don't get it. If it doesn't go where you go, then you have no choice, but since Charlotte isn't too big yet (like Atlanta) now is the time to fix that problem and plan employment centers around stations too. I commend the city for being progressive and pushing the mass transit issue instead of waiting around for the stupid state to get to the roads.

[dubone]

also, the most fiscally conservative thing you can do is plan wisely for the future. This a point that the republican leaders in charlotte recognize, but that these people are the far right and far left (or the far outerspace like madans) don't.

[monsoon]

.... I commend the city for being progressive and pushing the mass transit issue instead of waiting around for the stupid state to get to the roads.

The "stupid state" is paying for 25% of the Charlotte system. Without this money from the NCDOT, Charlotte would not be building the South LRT. If Charlotte is going to ask others to pay 75% of the cost of the transit system, then it has to accept the conditions that come with that money as well.

[teshadoh]

^ Ha - I know, I'll gladly trade our stupid state for your stupid state!

[dubone]

the state is stupid because they underfund the cities, which have the highest return on investment for tax dollars spent, and spend freely in rural counties with low return on investment, if any.

[nyxmike]

the state is stupid because they underfund the cities, which have the highest return on investment for tax dollars spent, and spend freely in rural counties with low return on investment, if any.

Thank You.

[RiverwoodCLT]

Guess who is paying for a lot of those rural roads - all those big cities that are jam with traffic. If Charlotte would get back all the road tax money collected here, you would see better roads.

[dubone]

Guess who is paying for a lot of those rural roads - all those big cities that are jam with traffic. If Charlotte would get back all the road tax money collected here, you would see better roads.

... and transit.

obviously, we all appreciate what the state does do to support transit and road network expansion. The problem is that it is a fraction of our needs. The city tries to compensate somewhat, but the ability to raise revenues off of local option taxes and property taxes are slim compared to income taxes and gas taxes the state raises in this county.

[monsoon]

... and transit.

obviously, we all appreciate what the state does do to support transit and road network expansion. The problem is that it is a fraction of our needs. The city tries to compensate somewhat, but the ability to raise revenues off of local option taxes and property taxes are slim compared to income taxes and gas taxes the state raises in this county.

Mecklenburg county gets more transportation dollars than any of the other 99 counties in NC and I-485 is the most expensive project in state history. What more to you think they need here? Are you saying the state should increase its road building in Mecklenburg in lieu of spending money on transit?

[dubone]

. no, i'm saying that this county may get more in spending for roads and transit than the other counties, but it is no where near proportional to our needs or the revenues earned in this county.

I'm saying we need a formula that doles out road money by need/congestion or lane-miles rather than the formulas that currently are very generous to rural divisions.

that would result in more road funding AND more transit funding. And hopefully alleviate the non-sequitor that conservatives have where they think that the lack of road funding is BECAUSE of transit, so there might actually be higher local political support for transit.

[monsoon]

By law, funds alloted for roads, can't be diverted to build trains. This comes in part from federal money used to fund the NCDOT. Canceling a road project doesn't mean you are going to get the money instead to build a light rail line.