Long Term Rail and CATS Transit Plans

[monsoon]

Charlotte does not have any BRT lines (if you mean Bus Rapid Transit). There are a couple of BRT lines proposed, but there is a lot of pressure to build light rail instead. I don't think they will build BRT here.

Charlotte does operate one of the larger city/county bus fleets in the SE however.

[dubone]

The proposed BRT lines are from uptown to 485 near the airport along US74/Wilkinson Blvd, and from uptown to 485 near Matthews along US74/Independence Blvd. Both sections of US74 are highly automobile dependent, and that is a major reason that BRT was proposed, (although insufficient budget for Light Rail is the primary reason).

Both Wilkinson and Independence have stretches of dead or dying commercial shopping centers from the 60s/70s. There are some stretches, however, that are seeing commercial improvements, but they are mostly WODs, Walmart-Oriented Development.

There is a new WOD at Wilkinson and Ashley that opened a few months ago. It has many components that were designed to be pedestrian, bicycle, and transit friendly. More on that project here.

There is also a WOD rumored at Independence and Pierson, to replace the dead Amity Gardens shopping center. More on that project here. This project will likely be required to meet transit and pedestrian friendly design as part of rezoning.

I can see both sides of whether Walmart is TOD or not, but Walmart is one of the few investments being made on both corridors within the city of Charlotte. They are primarily auto-dependent, with only some minor design subtleties that support pedestrians, bikes, and transit.

There are many TOD-style projects in uptown, and just outside uptown on the proposed BRT routes on their way to the US74 corridors.

In the 485 areas, there is very little TOD.

If LRT is selected, the time-frames will be pushed out very far in the future, when money is available. It will be a very different city by then.

[Sabaidee]

The Metropolitan Transit Commission's structure is changing again, its current 8 members structure will be increased to 9 members, 1 from each municipality in Mecklenburg County plus the Chairman of Mecklenburg County. The new voting member is from the NC Board of Transportion. http://www.charlotte.com/mld/observer/news...al/13462417.htm

[MZT]

The biggest problem with BRT is that people are quick to mentally compare it to existing bus service.

The BRT busses are more spacious, make fewer stops, and I suspect would provide a better ride as well because they are on dedicated roads. (No semi's tearing up the pavement at shopping center entrances, making all those potholes by the curbs.)

People also make the assumption that BRT isn't as strong a commitment to a corridor. That's a weak argument too, considering how much infrastructure needs to be built for it.

It may not be as crowd pleasing as the LR proposals, but I just have a hard time believing the money will be there for LR on all five corridors. Especially considring how the budgets never stay within estimate.

[RiverwoodCLT]

The biggest problem with BRT is that people are quick to mentally compare it to existing bus service.

The BRT busses are more spacious, make fewer stops, and I suspect would provide a better ride as well because they are on dedicated roads. (No semi's tearing up the pavement at shopping center entrances, making all those potholes by the curbs.)

People also make the assumption that BRT isn't as strong a commitment to a corridor. That's a weak argument too, considering how much infrastructure needs to be built for it.

It may not be as crowd pleasing as the LR proposals, but I just have a hard time believing the money will be there for LR on all five corridors. Especially considring how the budgets never stay within estimate.

I think BRT would work better on the east side. If it means getting Independence Blvd built quicker, I would go for it over LRT.

[monsoon]

I have heard the NCDOT is considering building "Enhanced Bus Service" to the airport. Does anyone have more details on this?

[dubone]

The west corridor includes some enhanced bus routes, including Freedom and Tyvola. However, the latest public information is that they are looking at BRT and Streetcar to the airport along US74 Wilkinson.

Some people get BRT and Enhanced Bus mixed up. However, if that is some sort of inside information, it is possible that they have decided in the new federal budgeting climate that neither BRT nor Streetcar could meet thresholds. In that scenario, they might now be abandoning those in exchange for enhanced bus.

That would be very unfortunate, however, if true. I have been rooting for Streetcar on that corridor, because it is a short corridor, has very little congestion, and streetcar has a positive connation for tourists and others for riding.

[Sabaidee]

Streetcar would also be easier because going east to west via Central Ave Streetcar, it's one mode of transit. Also the lastest Northeast Aligment options of the the LRT, one option would let the rail lines run behind or along Asian Corner with a station at Tryon and Asian Corner. The other option is to let the rail lines run along with NCRR and turn north towards Tryon behind NorthPark Shopping Center with a station near Old Concord and Tryon.

[monsoon]

I like the idea of a station at Asian Corner better. It seems to me that it would be better utilized than one at old Concord and Tryon

[Sabaidee]

The blue colored line is the option with a station at Asian Mall and the peach colored line is the option using NCRR going backhind NorthPark Shopping Center.

[monsoon]

That is an interesting route. I was not aware there was a rail ROW down that alternative section by Asian Corners. Would this be a new route purchased and created by CATS?

[dubone]

There is an existing rail spur in a possible Option 1 route.

http://local.live.com/default.aspx?v=2&cp=...7&scene=1905461

But if they definitely won't switch from the rail corridor until north of Sugar Creek Road, then they'd have to use an existing side street, or create their own right of way. Chances are that Asian Corner would pretty much give away Right of Way to get a station on their land. That sliver of parking space would be far less valuable than having a Transit Station on site.

[monsoon]

I am very familiar with that spur across craighead because its crossing signal gate came down on my Toyota in 1982. Cost me a couple of hundred bucks in repairs. However I don't think it can be used as it basically goes to the precast concrete plant which uses it for supplies and shipping. I don't they they would want to give up the line, nor the space.

[orulz]

Chances are that Asian Corner would pretty much give away Right of Way to get a station on their land. That sliver of parking space would be far less valuable than having a Transit Station on site.

Never been there, but maybe the TOD around the Asian Corner Mall could turn into Charlotte's "Chinatown." Name the LRT station after it, even. That would be really cool. Although, it may be tough to turn a mall like that in an industrial area into a pedestrian-friendly district. Oh well, these are long-term planes, aren't they?

[dubone]

After digging a bit more, according to the September presentation for the North line, the Asian Mall might be purchased entirely if the Sugar Creek alternative were chosen. It also gives a little bit more detail on how they would align the tracks.

M.m, you are right that they won't use that track spur. If they use the Sugar Creek option, they will build their own alignment on the Asian Mall land.

I almost think that the Eastway option is likelier because it is faster, doesn't need a bridge, and avoids the impact to historic properties and Tryon Street properties.

[MZT]

The Eastway option looks much more compatable with the existing road alignments, and it does not have the "S" twisty in it. CATS hasn't even decided if they can afford the 485 bridge to Pavillion. So I'm skeptical there will be room in the budget to buy the Mall, too.

[Sabaidee]

^^^ Yes, during one the presentations, the rail line would go between Asian Corner and Advanced Auto Parts in the alleyway, but by doing so Asian Corner might have to be demolished. I prefer that option though, but I don't want Asian Corner demolished. Also that option is probably more expensive with an elevated structure at Davidson and Sugar Creek and reconstructing North Tryon. The Eastway and NCRR option would allow more redevelopment though.

[dubone]

The Eastway option seems much better for a number of reason. I wonder if they could build a connection parallel to Tryon to connect Eastway to Old Concord. That could create a bit of a gridded downtown section for TOD around Northpark Mall.

If could look like this:

(I just threw this together)

[Sabaidee]

What is that circular thing, it looks like it was a track or some kind o walking path? Well I hope they will redesign the Eastway and Tryon intersection, it's designed to be high speed with tricky merging.

[rbdetsport]

Charlotte is so lucky to have the government to do all of this transit. Detroit has nothing and it is the second largest city in all of the Midwest, under Chicago. I am very happy for Charlotte but so sad for Detroit. We need transit so badly for the poverty around here.

[RugbyPike#11]

Charlotte is so lucky to have the government to do all of this transit. Detroit has nothing and it is the second largest city in all of the Midwest, under Chicago. I am very happy for Charlotte but so sad for Detroit. We need transit so badly for the poverty around here.

Not a big fan of the People Mover? Detroit probably won't get any kind of mass transit because the automakers don't want to encourage people to not use cars!

[dubone]

http://www.charmeck.org/NR/rdonlyres/eurqp...ansWin06pgs.pdf

http://www.charmeck.org/NR/rdonlyres/erajk...ansWin06pgs.pdf

The newsletters for the SE and West lines are now online. There isn't much new info, and they are more just Q&As, but have some interesting information.

It appears there is also a hybrid plan for the West corridor with streetcar going down West Morehead as a downtown spur, but not down Wilkinson. BRT would then go the rest of the way down Wilkinson to 485.

[monsoon]

I guess the good news here is that LRT is still on the table for the SE corridor. I really don't care much for BRT.

[dubone]

These newsletters really made me realize the costs that come with BRT that I don't fully think I understood before. For the West corridor, they'd need to widen Wilkinson if BRT is selected. BRT vehicles apparently also have a much shorter lifespan, have much higher operating costs, and have a little lower capacity.

[orulz]

An interesting quotation from the West Corridor newsletter:

The Gaston Metropolitan Planning

Organization (MPO), in conjunction

with the City of Gastonia and the

North Carolina Department of

Transportation Rail Division, has

recently completed a feasibility

study that evaluated future transit

connections to Charlotte, including

appropriate ways to tie into the

rapid transit system planned for the

West Corridor.

I wonder whether that study is available online anywhere?