Long Term Rail and CATS Transit Plans

[Neo]

I'm not really sure if it's that feasible or not. A commuter rail line would be great, but other than that I'm not so sure that other rail transit would make it in Union County. I'm a native of Monroe and short of downtown, it is nothing but sprawl all the way to Charlotte. The gap has pretty much been closed up between Monroe and Charlotte so it's one big chain of Targets, fast food joints, and car dealers. None of which I'd take a rail line to get to.

[Creasy336]

I'm not really sure if it's that feasible or not. A commuter rail line would be great, but other than that I'm not so sure that other rail transit would make it in Union County. I'm a native of Monroe and short of downtown, it is nothing but sprawl all the way to Charlotte. The gap has pretty much been closed up between Monroe and Charlotte so it's one big chain of Targets, fast food joints, and car dealers. None of which I'd take a rail line to get to.

Yeah I drove through Union County for the first time last week. Ive heard so much about the growth and sprawl while reading post over the years on urbanplanet. US 74 was a nightmare with all the stop lights and traffic, etc.. I would have gladly paid a toll to drive around it. Rail transit can change the way an area grows with light rail being a good example. Union County is on its way to be charlottes largest neighbor in population and is already the fastest growing area adjacent to Charlotte. I think an electric commuter train or EMU would be the best option along with high density TOD. Yes I know its expensive but that MHO.

[Seabreeze]

I was talking to a bus driver and he said that the Bus station uptown is going through a lot of changes. They are constructing the information desk area on the side with all of the consessions so that they can make the area where the current information desk is (the side closest to 210 trade) into escalators up to the new light rail line. Hopefully they will make it a lot nicer and do a remodel of the lobby. And maybe a coat of paint that isn't teal!

[UrbanCharlotte]

I wouldn't mind a coat of Panther blue.

[orulz]

There was an article in yesterday's observer about the northeast LRT's routing at UNCC. They're debating whether to go through campus or stick to US 29, and if they do go through campus, what route to take.

[49er]

With a daytime population that will approach half of that in downtown, I dont see how the line can avoid slicing though campus. This could be one of the highest trip generators in the whole system.

[f0xym0p]

Oh it must go through campus. The light rail would actually allow people who go to UNCC to not have to rely on a car to get anywhere besides their classes.

[dubone]

In the next few weeks, CATS will give updates on the SE and W lines. There have been rumors and some indication on maps and other materials that LRT was chosen for the SE line. It'll be interesting to see how they handle those questions in the public meeting.

I really hope the West line is streetcar, as I think the best thing for this city will be to have a solid street car system radiating a few miles from downtown, in all directions that do not have rapid rail lines (West, East, North West, and due South.) That is pretty much the plan already, although it isn't set yet that the West line won't be busses, and the line due south is just to Kenilworth near East Blvd (I think it should extend farther).

[fulcrumsf]

Not much new news about the Multi-Module Amtrak Station, but there is a good read in the Charlotte Biz Journal.

Toward the end of the article it states quote"Greyhound will be a very nice facility as part of a publicly owned four- or five-story parking garage. We're making them green buildings.The parking garage will have all kinds of plants growing on the outside of it, bringing down heating bills and that type of thing."

I am really happy to hear this and I hope this will promote more green type building.

[revitalize]

I saw the alternatives for the SE line, and the light rail alternative seemed to make so much sense. There were a number of good spots for stations along the way, and it terminated at the CPCC Levine campus. This would be another helpful thing for students in the Charlotte area and promoting the academic culture of the city.

[dubone]

With the longevity and lower operating cost of rail, I'm now a supporter of LRT on the SE line. I was a supporter of BRT on that line for a few years, but you're right, LRT really seems like the rational and lower long-term cost option.

[orulz]

I'm a bit disappointed that the SE corridor, if it goes LRT, won't share tracks with the streetcar. It just makes sense to me for the SE line be a cross-town route to the west corridor. I sort of had the idea that the only difference between CATS' definition of light-rail and their definition of streetcar is that streetcars run in mixed traffic while LRT runs in a dedicated right-of-way.

The power systems can be the same, the tracks can be the same, and the vehicles can be the same (LRVs are long, but they still fit in the lane) so why not!

[dubone]

Well, you may have missed a comment that I think would please you more than sharing tracks with the streetcar. This will actually be operated like an extension of the South and NE LRT lines. That means some trains will go from UNCC to Matthews. Some will go from UNCC to Pineville and others will go from Pineville to Matthews.

Atlrvr confirmed that at the SE LRT open house meeting.

[monsoon]

The downside of course is the money that it will take to build a LRT all the way to CPCC Levine. My guess is this will be close to a billion dollars once they get around to it. And this would be after $700M or more to build a line to UNCC. I just don't see how they can do it given that the administration and congress are passing out money for mass transit in very small amounts. The money they are providing these days amounts to pouring a pail of water into Lake Norman.

[revitalize]

who knows if this will change though? Perhaps the continued rising cost of oil/gas will cause a shift in federal funding to support more mass transit projects... or am I just making stuff up?

[dubone]

The downside of course is the money that it will take to build a LRT all the way to CPCC Levine. My guess is this will be close to a billion dollars once they get around to it. And this would be after $700M or more to build a line to UNCC. I just don't see how they can do it given that the administration and congress are passing out money for mass transit in very small amounts. The money they are providing these days amounts to pouring a pail of water into Lake Norman.

The present administration will be a long lost memory by the time the SE corridor is expected to be built. I think the plan had been 2017 or so if they did BRT, and LRT would almost certain be later.

You might be right on the price overall, but much of that will be the structures that will need to be built for upgrading Independence. That will fall outside of the transit budget, so it might actually be cheaper.

[MZT]

Tara Servatius has a very lazily-written article in the recent CL. She basically rides shotgun with a few councilmembers and a UNCC professor that are unsure about the prospects of the other lines beyond the south line. (Which she even called a "Train to Nowhere").

She completely ignores the momentum behind the north line and it's low cost in comparison to the others. Or that it is called the "2025 Plan" after all. A setback of a few years while waiting for a more transit-friendly administration is not a big deal in the long term scheme of things.

[atlrvr]

Please tell me that UNCC professor isn't David Hartgen.

[monsoon]

Please tell me that UNCC professor isn't David Hartgen.

Ahh yeah, our local "expert" for the John Locke Foundation. (they are an anti-transit think tank in Raleigh) I spoke out against the ideas of this group on NPR in Raleigh a couple of weeks ago. Their arguments that public transit spending isn't cost effective, misses all of he key points of why you would build public transit in the first place.

Aside from that, they also seem to forget it was the residents of Mecklenburg that voted to build this transit system. They should have voiced their concerns during the campaign.

[mallguy]

Tara is dead wrong. The other lines are proceeding.

[Charlotte_native]

I supposed all the naysayers conveniently ignore the relative explosion of announced development along this line on South that "no one will use". I guess they don't want to see that predictions actually are coming to fruition. I guess they conveniently ignore the fact that the dinky littel trolley that ran for a few months actually got riders AND real riders that used it for a short commute.

I'm sure they were real pissed off when the cars were full.

It begins to amaze how bad people who opposed the rail system hope it doesn't work ignoring how profound this would change parts of our city if it does take off. Who knows if it will or to what degree.

As for Tara, her MO is to write negative articles so this is no surprise. The funny part, she has written about how gentrification is so bad, but has bought, fixed up, and flipped homes herself...the bitter folks always seemt to be the most hypocritical.

[dubone]

That's funny about her flipping houses.

She might actually have a point, though, about the difficulties of getting funding for the other lines. The NE line might have an easier time because it is will be extended in sections from the South line. Also, its ridership will be fairly high once it gets onto the UNCC campus.

The N line will struggle a bit for funding unless they come up with justification for higher ridership projections. Right now they are very low, leading to a cost effectiveness rating expecation of Low. They are saying there is a signifant amount of TOD, but they really need to work on getting their numbers up in order to be financed.

The streetcar line shouldn't have much trouble, as its costs are very low, compared to high expected ridership. It will also offer operational cost reductions as it replaces the highest ridership bus routes in the city. NCDOT is requiring LRT and BRT to replace any roadway lanes they take up, adding large costs to the West line BRT option and the NE LRT line. However, streetcar goes in mixed traffic, so it won't have to compensate. That will keep its costs down even more.

The West line is a bit iffy. They found that BRT actually is slower than the No Build option, so that is pretty much out. Streetcar would be the only build option, but as it is not rapid transit, it would not draw any park and ride users, and would pretty much just be airport employees and a small subset of airport passengers.

So Tara is right that the other lines will have difficulty. But over a 20-25 year period, it should not be much of a problem to get the whole system built.

[monsoon]

The N line will struggle a bit for funding unless they come up with justification for higher ridership projections. Right now they are very low, leading to a cost effectiveness rating expecation of Low. They are saying there is a signifant amount of TOD, but they really need to work on getting their numbers up in order to be financed.

The fact of the matter is that no line in Charlotte could qualify under the new rules adopted by the FTA last year. The North line has low ridership compared to LRT, but not for commuter rail which is what it is. The good news is that because the costs are low, they may have options not available to the other projects.

It's the NE line that has the issue as the costs to build this line are enormous and as a result can only be built if there is significant federal funding available under New Starts. Since Bush and the congress have essentially shut down funding of this program (they only provided funding for about 3% of the requests this year) its unlikely the NE line will see the light of day anytime in the next decade.

Iraq spending is exceeding $2.2B/week and there simply isn't be any money left for anything like transit funding for the forseeable future. Bush alloted only $1.5B for all transit funding for all of 2007 to be shared by all of the USA, and most of that went to satisify existing approved systems including a $57M payment to Charlotte for the South LRT.

The center city streetcar system will not be built unless a majority of the MTC votes to build it. Remember Charlotte only gets one vote on the matter. Keep in mind its the MTC that will decide which lines will be built and when, not the city of Charlotte, CATS, the CCCP or anyone else

[Charlotte_native]

The center city streetcar system will not be built unless a majority of the MTC votes to build it. Remember Charlotte only gets one vote on the matter. Keep in mind its the MTC that will decide which lines will be built and when, not the city of Charlotte, CATS, the CCCP or anyone else

The City and CATS sure imply that the streetcars are a done deal. At least from the couple articles I've seen and the public meeting I attended.

As for other lines for the light rail, I suppose ridership #'s and response by the public once the current lines are complete will greatly influence if money is coughed up for additional lines.

[monsoon]

The City and CATS sure imply that the streetcars are a done deal. At least from the couple articles I've seen and the public meeting I attended.

As for other lines for the light rail, I suppose ridership #'s and response by the public once the current lines are complete will greatly influence if money is coughed up for additional lines.

As I said above, the city and CATS do not get to make the decision on when and if the streetcar line will be built. That decision will be made by the MTC. It is certainly not a done deal as they have not voted on the matter.