Long Term Rail and CATS Transit Plans

[dubone]

that is good. i didn't know there was a "chinese wall" between the those funds.

I'm pro-road (to a degree) and pro-transit.

485 is the most expensive project in state history because the state has never before had a city as large as Charlotte/Mecklenburg with needs that this community has. The revenues raised in this city are large, and could fund a high percentage of its own needs, but the state treats this city (and the other cities in the state) mostly as donors for funding big projects in rural area. By chronically underfunding the cities, it creates a serious backlog of project needs. There is a lot of resentment in this area about how underfunded our road network is, and most people who aren't informed channel that frustration toward the transit network. Enter Craig Madans.

[monsoon]

I have always said the $15 it cost to file to be a candidate in the local elections is absolutely the cheapest way to get yourself into the media.

[monsoon]

There is a lot of wisdom in this article and it applies somewhat to what is happening here.

Scrap trains and get on the bus

[dubone]

i'm definitely for light rail to NoDa and commuter rail to Mooresville... But BRT is certainly the smart choice for SE/Independence. I'd even be for BRT between NoDa and Concord.

(and sorry, but i'm starting to think BRT might be best for the triangle, although they should keep the right of way on the rail line they have already obtained in order to build it more cheaply in the future)

[ngp]

How likely is it that the LRT will be extended to NoDa? What would the timeframe be? TOD is already popping up along that corridor, so are the odds good or are developers just crossing their fingers? I would think that such a relatively short extension would have a huge positive impact on that area, and the density would build up pretty quickly considering most of the land lacks the blight that surrounds the South LRT.

As for BRT, I'll never understand the bus hate. Taking a bus with dedicated ROW isn't much different than taking a train, and it's immeasurably better than driving along Independence.

[dubone]

as far as NoDa is concerned...i think that is very likely.

http://www.charmeck.org/Departments/CATS/R...Information.htm

It would be done by 2013 (so construction likely beginning in 5 or 6yrs).

I think it is very likely because it is an extension of the current light rail line, it is on a rail line corridor, already has a lot of TOD, and the Optimist Park, Belmont, and NoDa neighborhoods receiving a lot of investment already to spur growth.

If light rail isn't extended, then i suspect the historic trolley line would be extended.

[monsoon]

How likely is it that the LRT will be extended to NoDa? What would the timeframe be? TOD is already popping up along that corridor, so are the odds good or are developers just crossing their fingers? I would think that such a relatively short extension would have a huge positive impact on that area, and the density would build up pretty quickly considering most of the land lacks the blight that surrounds the South LRT.

As for BRT, I'll never understand the bus hate. Taking a bus with dedicated ROW isn't much different than taking a train, and it's immeasurably better than driving along Independence.

I find that an LRT extension just to Noda to be unlikely because such a line is going to depend upon federal funding. One of the goals of federal transit funding is to get people out of their cars. Since NoDa is already well served by bus service, I find it very unlikely that a LRT that extended just to NoDa would be looked on favorably by the Feds considering the cost and projecte ridership. There is not a significant traffic problem getting to NoDa, so no LRT for this area unless it is part of a project to extend it to the suburbs. It would be a prestige project and the Feds won't pay for that anymore.

Any transit project that only serves to remove people from buses to load the trains is not going to be funded by the Feds. Hence it won't be built here. The best chances for future rail projects in the CLT area (within the next 25 years) are those that extend out for miles and, as a result, have some chance at reaching the ridership numbers that will result in a full funding letter from the Federal govt. Keep in mind these are new requirements that have come to light in the last year and will greatly affect what Charlotte center city boosters want to do with rail.

Noda already has mass transit. It's called the city bus and I recommend that anyone living there to start using it.

[monsoon]

It could be because the buses don't stop in any impoverished areas....people who ride these buses can afford a car to take them to the park and ride.....again, I'm not saying that BRT won't generate new riders, but that it should be a consideration.....$$$ spent/new rider and $$$ spent/new development

Given that NoDa is surrounded by some of the most inpoverished neighborhoods in Charlotte, one would expect the residents of that community to be the most willing to ride the bus.

[atlrvr]

Given that NoDa is surrounded by some of the most inpoverished neighborhoods in Charlotte, one would expect the residents of that community to be the most willing to ride the bus.

That wasn't really my point.....I'm saying that their is a difference between any of the Express Bus lines that make no stops between the suburbs and the center city and is dominated by middle-class riders, and at BRT line that would make stops along the way and would hopefully carry a mix....though I'm wondering if there would be a significant drop off in middle class riders of BRT.

I can tell you that I've taken the 80X from downtown to University City, and there is a HUGE demographic difference between that route and the 11U which makes local stops along N. Tryon on the way to UC. My point is, are these people paying twice the fare to get downtown in 25% less time, or are they paying twice the fare to not sit next to low-income riders??? It seems like if the 2nd case is in fact the reason, then BRT will do little to increase ridership or promote development. My other thought is that trains seem to have shaken the stereotype of local stop transit routes in many cities, and developers are buying into the vision on the South line......the thought that LRT will ultimately accomplish ridership and land-use goals better than BRT should at least be a consideration....and if that means we need to wait longer to build, then build the system that is going to be successful, not the first thing we can afford.

[monsoon]

I think a good test for NoDa would be to extend the Gold Rush Trolleys down Davidson to that neighborhood. If they work then then it is a good alternative. If not, then it would be a waste of money to build a streetcar line or LRT there.

I think CATS needs to be a bit more realistic in all these plans that are being put forth. They are not all going to start construction before 2010 and most likely not even before 2015. Remember they were already sent packing once by the Feds on the ridership numbers for the South LRT which is the reason that it is opening a year later than it should.

[ngp]

Is increased development along Independence a priority like it was for South Blvd and the proposed NE LRT to University City? I thought Independence was transitioning into a freeway. Wouldn't that negate a large part of LRT's appeal?

Maybe CATS should just throw a couple more Express busses onto Independence and be done with it. Is there really any demand out that way for anything other than morning and evening commuter service?

I think a good test for NoDa would be to extend the Gold Rush Trolleys down Davidson to that neighborhood. If they work then then it is a good alternative. If not, then it would be a waste of money to build a streetcar line or LRT there.

I think that's a good idea. It would be a low-cost method of testing demand in the area, and the Gold Rush doesn't carry the PR baggage of traditional bus service. I would imagine a street car/trolley system is much more fluid than the more expensive mass transit options. And not having to rely on large amounts of federal money is always a plus.

[MZT]

CATS may as well wait until the south line is running before hitting the feds on the NE line. I very much think the Feds will want to see, just how well CATS projections can meet reality, before committing more money anyway...

[DigitalSky]

lynn wheeler has found her platform for forging back into politics. good to see real principles at work.

also nice to see that people are "against" things that are now being built already.

i guess the "closed doors" are the ones where the technocrats get out their calculators and figure out the computer models, etc., to prove to the federal government that it is worthwhile.

anyway, at least the eastside councilmembers will be pro-transit...

http://www.charlotte.com/mld/charlotte/news/12888349.htm

yeah i'd much like to see light rail through east charlotte as opposed to busses

[dubone]

http://www.charlotte.com/mld/charlotte/12915683.htm

It looks like they are considering to go through UNCC's campus instead of bypassing it on Tryon. It would be interesting if ridership projections were to increase as the article implies. It could help put the NE line on track for funding.

[monsoon]

They did not consider putting a station on the UNCC campus because the previous Chancellor was against it. Now that they have had a change, the current administration is willing to consider it. If they run a line out this way, it would be a huge huge huge, can I say huge, mistake to bypass UNCC considering the large number of people that live and go to school there. There are some projections that say that UNCC will become the largest school in the UNC system in the next 20 years. (Its currently 4 I think)

The only downside is most of the developed areas of the school are on the Hwy 49 side of things which would be a bit of a detour to get the train within convenient walking distance of much of the school. And the station should also be convenient to the non-Uncc public. A difficult task since the University was originally layed out as a school for commuters.

Personally I see running a LRT this far out of Charlotte to be particularly problematic. The area is completely pedestrian unfriendly and I don't see how they will be able to get the ridership #s up considering the land is already developed, abiet badly. A bad sign, CATS recently eliminated the local village rider because it was so underused. Also a considerable number of people live in University, because they work in University and would not be candidates for tranist.

[MZT]

Skipping UNCC would be an immensely boneheaded decision. Think of the money saved in future parking decks! And less need for more apartment complexes right in University City.

So freakin' what if the stop is "buried" deep into the campus? There are several other stops with park'n'rides the commuters can use. Sheesh.

[monsoon]

..

So freakin' what if the stop is "buried" deep into the campus? There are several other stops with park'n'rides the commuters can use. Sheesh.

Because transit stops are hugely expensive and rare in the scheme of things. To get ridership up you want it accessable to both the school and public. Else it goes unused during periods of the year when the school is closed. And is very lightly used during the reduced operations of the summer months.

You also don't want to inject yet another governmental agency into the operations of the transit system.

[orulz]

Perhaps Bruton Smith's $50m can take the place of Cabarrus County's local contribution. Wonder how likely that is...

[monsoon]

Perhaps Bruton Smith's $50m can take the place of Cabarrus County's local contribution. Wonder how likely that is...

Well actually that might be enough to get it from the county line to the speedway and possibly over to Concord Mills. They could run the rail from down the middle of speedway blvd from the race track over to the mall. That would be pretty neat. Unfortunately, the LRT will not have anywhere near the capacity to handle the crowds coming out of a race, but it can't hurt.

[dubone]

there are new station area plans posted for the west corridor.

http://www.charmeck.org/Departments/CATS/R...n+Area+Maps.htm

and for the southeast corridor

http://www.charmeck.org/Departments/CATS/R...n+area+Maps.htm

[dubone]

by the way... the walmart on wilkinson and the one planned on independence are both near transit stations... and could potential drive up our transit numbers for the south east and west lines.

ridership projections are required to use existing land uses (i believe), so having the walmart on wilkinson in operation already could help that line... and depending on how quickly the independence walmart gets out of the ground, could be operating in time for the ridership models for those lines.

[monsoon]

Right now, those are still planned to be bus lines, so I am not sure if the same formulas would apply. However, I've always said that one of the goals of transit, is to move people to destinations, including shopping. We don't have much of that in the plan right now.

[monsoon]

Here is an example of BRT transit proposed for Eugene Oregon. This would be a good alternative for the University, Southeast and West corridors.

[dubone]

BRT is fine with me, especially for the West and SouthEast corridor. The costs are much lower, and the Feds view it as very cost efficient, and would likely be very receptive.

That BRT vehicle looks very cool. In some ways it might be better for development than LRT, because they don't have ugly caternary wires or poles. They do have the cool factor over busses, and the fixed-route will help to support development.

I'm curious, though, do they have to hire drivers with really steady hands, or is there some system for keeping within the side curbs?

[monsoon]

There are technologies used on some of these buses that help the driver keep the bus steady in narrow corridors such as the one shown above. One of the more popular options for BRT is to run it down the shoulders on freeways. A special lane only 10 ft wide is created and the bus is sent down it. There are mechanisms added to the bus to help the driver keep it going at speed in these narrow corridors. I think this is used in Minneapolis, but I am not sure.