Long Term Rail and CATS Transit Plans

[ChiefJoJo]

I would contact the Gaston MPO: link

[magnolia839]

Does anyone know when the light rail will make its way to NoDa? I know it is in the plans, but how soon?

[monsoon]

Does anyone know when the light rail will make its way to NoDa? I know it is in the plans, but how soon?

That is a separate project known as the University LRT line. Currently it is only in the preliminary planning stages. Most likely it won't see the light of day until some time after 2010 possibly 2012.

[dubone]

The current plans are to extend LRT from 7th to 36th St in 2013, and 485 in 2018.

http://www.charmeck.org/Departments/CATS/R...Description.htm

[crispin]

Does anyone know when the light rail will make its way to NoDa? I know it is in the plans, but how soon?

Charlotte's plans say the line will reach 36th Street by 2012, but that depends on securing federal funding.

There's a long line of projects waiting for funding, and right now, University LRT isn't even in the line.

And at any rate, I think they're planning to try to build a commuter rail to Lake Norman first.

Of course, that project also hasn't yet joined the line for federal funding...

[dubone]

CATS now plans on 2013 for the extension to NoDa. Also, even though it is a long line for federal funding, the NE line will not be counted as New Starts. They will be handled like other extensions of existing lines.

[crispin]

CATS now plans on 2013 for the extension to NoDa. Also, even though it is a long line for federal funding, the NE line will not be counted as New Starts. They will be handled like other extensions of existing lines.

thanks for the correction on the date. i still think the history of federal funding for other projects (including the south corridor) suggests that 2013 is an unlikely dream.

[dubone]

The extension to NoDa would probably cost less than the Charlotte Trolley line. It would require no bridges, no maintenance yard, no design for vehicles or really much else. It is just a matter adding a couple extra miles of tracks and a couple of stations.

Getting an extension costing a couple dozen mil is going to be much less difficult than getting the original line, for almost half a billion, built. I don't think there is as much difficulty in getting these types of minor extensions as there are New Starts, regardless of price.

[monsoon]

CATS now plans on 2013 for the extension to NoDa. Also, even though it is a long line for federal funding, the NE line will not be counted as New Starts. They will be handled like other extensions of existing lines.

Any new request for federal funding, that goes over $75M is considered a new starts program. It doesn't matter if it is an extension of an existing line or not. As a result is it subject to all the design work, studies, ridership validation, EIS etc as any other line.

My feeling on this line is that phase I should be built to 36th street, and maybe possibly on to the Asian Mall, but anything beyond that is a waste of money. The city is doing absolutely nothing on this corridor to encourage any kind of TOD or even to slow down the really bad sprawl in the University area. Hundreds of millions for LRT into this area is going to take away from the areas where it could actually do some good.

[dubone]

Is that a new rule? I am not an expert by any stretch, but I swore I had read of other systems that had line items in the budget that weren't new starts. Maybe they were just previously approved new starts.

[TowerRooster]

My feeling on this line is that phase I should be built to 36th street, and maybe possibly on to the Asian Mall, but anything beyond that is a waste of money. The city is doing absolutely nothing on this corridor to encourage any kind of TOD or even to slow down the really bad sprawl in the University area. Hundreds of millions for LRT into this area is going to take away from the areas where it could actually do some good.

Sad, but true... the city doesn't give two turds about trying to keep Univ. City from becoming even more of a disaster.

I'll bet the North line gets its funding without too much of a delay, though, especially as much as the N Meck and S Iredell towns are doing in the way of TOD, and after everyone sees what a success the South line is. How likely is it that they end up taking it all the way to downtown Mooresville, though? Spending time up there and talking to people... they want it... their attitude is the antithesis of the Pineville folks, and it shows in the life being breathed back into their historic downtown.

[monsoon]

I think the chances are good the North line will be built. The down side of it is that it is simply designed to deliver commuters to downtown Charlotte. I think that is a bad plan at this point and they should look at something more robust for this area. As you mention this is the route where the most intersting TOD is taking place, yet no one seems to realize that a commuter rail line is not exactly something that would take full advantage of it.

However at this point, any changes in the plan would add years to the project so I say build it as it is, then come back and expand it in the future.

[atlrvr]

There is a plan out there developed by Glatting Jackson to dramatically rework a large area of the University Area to put it on a quasi-grid that really impressed me. It essentially is the area just north of the 29/49 split and would include the redevelopment of the K-Mart center and all the land west to 85.

Of course the plan is just a nice-picture, but I believe it is being incorporated into the Small Area Plan for that station area. The plan is already being shopped to developers. Timing is the critical issue in that property owners aren't likely to wait 12 years to build, and building something as urban as proposed won't produce the same financial returns without LRT.

[monsoon]

Unfortunately they have had plans like this on the books for University city since the early 80s, and the city continues to allow developers to come in and circumvent the urban plan of the day. I think it is a lost cause at this point.

[dubone]

Well, I think recent city councils have been pretty good about sticking to plans. Also, as far as support for U City goes, the city created a special disti with a revenue stream to make plans to turn the area around. The thrust of those plans are to help rebuild the area in prep for LRT. Considering that the line isn't planned to be built even within a decade, we can't expect to see immediate results. Light rail will create a unifying point for many of the activities in the next decade.

[RugbyPike#11]

Do you all think that the south line could ever be extended to Rock Hill? The Norfolk Southern Tracks along South Blvd extend into South Carolina and go directly through downtown Fort Mill and Rock Hill, going by Winthrop University and a large Rock Hill industrial park along the way.

Is there much precedent for a metro mass transit extending into a second state? If NCDOT is funding most of the Charlotte transit line, where could funding come from to extend the line into South Carolina? Another thought to consider is, if South Carolina keeps trying to compete with Charlotte for corporate headquarters, would Charlotte want to make it easier for Charlotte residents to commute to jobs in York County?

Rock Hill has been trying for years to jumpstart development in its historic downtown area, so you would think that a light rail station with surrounding TOD would probably help out the city in that regard.

[revitalize]

One precedent I know of is the DC Metro. It spans MD, DC, and VA. I think it's owned and operated by a quazi-public/private sort of entity called Washington Metropolitan Area Transportation Authority (WMATA) and funding is contributed by all the communities that the train runs through. Maybe this would be required before the LRT could be extended into SC... not sure this would happen any time soon.

[orulz]

Forgive me if this was already posted, but there was an article in yesterday's Observer entitled Learn about transit plans at York County workshop.

There is a workshop today from 4:30pm to 7:30pm at City Hall about transit options for the future in Rock Hill.

They mention improved express buses, fixed-route bus service in Rock Hill, and an eventual extension of the South Corridor light rail. Given the distance between Charlotte and Rock Hill (~30 miles?) I think that commuter rail - a southward continuation of the North Corridor - is probably a better choice, since it's so much cheaper per mile. Then again, I wouldn't be surprised at all if the newspaper has just fallen for "buzzword mania" and gotten the terminology wrong.

[RugbyPike#11]

Forgive me if this was already posted, but there was an article in yesterday's Observer entitled Learn about transit plans at York County workshop.

There is a workshop today from 4:30pm to 7:30pm at City Hall about transit options for the future in Rock Hill.

They mention improved express buses, fixed-route bus service in Rock Hill, and an eventual extension of the South Corridor light rail. Given the distance between Charlotte and Rock Hill (~30 miles?) I think that commuter rail - a southward continuation of the North Corridor - is probably a better choice, since it's so much cheaper per mile. Then again, I wouldn't be surprised at all if the newspaper has just fallen for "buzzword mania" and gotten the terminology wrong.

An extension from the last stop in the South Corridor light rail looks like it would be about 15 miles if York County decided to use the existing Norfolk Southern tracks. I would envision a stop in downtown Rock Hill, Rock Hill's Waterford Business/Industrial Park, downtown Fort Mill, and maybe even a stop near Regent Park (between Fort Mill and Pineville, close to Carowinds) if a developer stepped in to build a mixed use community at the old Heritage USA property. There's another track that offshoots the north/south line that goes through Winthrop and goes right by Piedmont Medical Center. I can envision a couple much smaller trolley stations along this corridor that could deliver people to the main light rail line. In fact, Rock Hill has already done a study for a trolley between downtown and Winthrop along this east/west corridor.

I went to college at Winthrop in Rock Hill which is why a SC extension interests me. Thanks for the link to the workshop. I'd really like to attend but unfortunately I have previous plans for the evening.

[monsoon]

Is there much precedent for a metro mass transit extending into a second state? If NCDOT is funding most of the Charlotte transit line, where could funding come from to extend the line into South Carolina? Another thought to consider is, if South Carolina keeps trying to compete with Charlotte for corporate headquarters, would Charlotte want to make it easier for Charlotte residents to commute to jobs in York County?

The MTC (this is the group that funds CATS transit) is already setup for transit into SC if it is to happen. I believe that a York County representative (and maybe Rock Hill) are members with non-voting status. They get to become voting members when SC/York/Rock Hill decides to fund the part of the rail system that would extend into SC. This is written up in the current MTC bylaws.

The NCDOT at this point has only funded about 23% of the South LRT. While it is expected they will provide more funding for other transit related projects on the NC side, none of that is set in stone yet. The SCDOT could also provide similar funding for the York portion. Most of CATS funding comes from local sources, the transit tax, fare collection, and the general fund. About 47% of the capital funding of the S. LRT came from the Federal Govt.

[MZT]

This distance from Charlotte to Rock hill is about 24 miles, just right about the point where the cost/benefit shifts, from light rail to commuter rail.

I wouldn't rule out light rail, though. If there aren't too many stops on the SC side, or some kind of express service or alternate stops arranged, it could work. Enhanced grade and signal improvements might also tip the decision.

[nyxmike]

They could also single track it to save money - and double track certain sections to allow other trains to pass. I think the light rail in Baltimore has single track sections.

[hinsp0]

One precedent I know of is the DC Metro. It spans MD, DC, and VA. I think it's owned and operated by a quazi-public/private sort of entity called Washington Metropolitan Area Transportation Authority (WMATA) and funding is contributed by all the communities that the train runs through. Maybe this would be required before the LRT could be extended into SC... not sure this would happen any time soon.

Fares (which are too high) and advertising revenue pay for much of METRO's operating expense. Budget shortfalls (which happen each year) are covered by contributions from DC, MD, and the VA communities of Arlington, Alexandria, Fairfax County and Falls Church.

IMO Metro is not a well-run system from a funding standpoint. Funds are insufficient, leading to continuing problems of increased fares, delays, smaller trains running at rush hour, excalator malfuntions in stations, etc...

Charlotte is on the right track with its half-cent sales tax for transit. If the Charlotte system is to expand into York County SC, Gaston County, Union County, or Iredell County, then Charlotte better darn well be sure that those communities have set mechanisms for contributing their share of the transit pie.

The DC area Metro is a deteriorating system, largely due to a funding policy that lacks coherence and concrete sources of funding. This is not to say that the DC system doesn't work well... just that the DC system needs a re-evaluation of how it is managed, especially from a funding standpoint.

Charlotte would be wise to learn from DC's sucesses (maily from the station area development perspective) as well as DC's failures (the funding structure).

All-in-all, Charlotte appears to be on the right track.

[orulz]

They could also single track it to save money - and double track certain sections to allow other trains to pass. I think the light rail in Baltimore has single track sections.

It did for a few years, until they got fed up with the operational constraints and long headways, and double tracked the whole line. They would have saved a good bit of money in the long run if they had built it double-tracked from the start.

[hinsp0]

It did for a few years, until they got fed up with the operational constraints and long headways, and double tracked the whole line. They would have saved a good bit of money in the long run if they had built it double-tracked from the start.

Single-tracking would be more trouble than its worth. May as well not build a system if you're going to single track it... Definitely double-track from the start.

When they single track the DC metro, trips take exponentially longer than when the system is running normally. There's nothing more frustrating that entering a station only to find out that they are single-tracking... You should see the look of disgust on passengers faces when single-tracking is announced. People don't like to be inconvenieced by mass transit, especially since mass transit is supposed to make transportation more convenient.