Soleil Center I & II at Crabtree

[ChiefJoJo]

If GlenTree is approved by city council, in 20-30 years whoever is around here might be talking about DT's decline the way we talk about the first decline after the opening of North Hills and Crabtree Valley Mall. About how downtown showed signs of life in the early 21st century, but after RBC decided that Crabtree was "downtown" and moved into GlenTree (or GlenLake or Brier Creek), and other businesses followed their lead. How condo towers were built, but no one lived in, because for the same money they could live in the project on what used to be Kidd Hill Plaza behind Crabtree, or in Brier Creek to be closer to RTP. How when the convention center opened, and no one came because there was no street life, just the uninhabited condo towers and office buildings that never recovered from glut brought on by the Progress Energy and Reynolds Towers.

I don't see why this project is a direct threat to DT. First of all, RBC is going to place their bank DT, along with other banks and Progress Energy. Second of all, there are so many great projects coming along DT, their momentum won't be slowed by a DT boutique hotel condo highrise. I am not sure that it's a project I would support at that size, but either way, it won't spell disaster to DT Raleigh.

To me, this project would make more sense in Brier Creek -- instead of being "Raleigh suburb" it would be "triangle infill". It would be closer to the airport, RTP, 540, golf and other amenities at Brier Creek (which doesn't have a resort hotel and spa) and 3-4 miles from Crabtree.

I have to disagree with you there. As stated before, Crabtree is a city focus area, and already has some near-midrise bldgs there, so it's a lot better spot for this kind of structure than a super sprawling development that Briar Creek is.

BTW, RaleighMSA.com is an awesome site--keep it coming!

[JunktionFET]

I really really hope I'm wrong about this....

If GlenTree is approved by city council, in 20-30 years whoever is around here might be talking about DT's decline the way we talk about the first decline after the opening of North Hills and Crabtree Valley Mall.

Though I can see how someone may form that analogy, it just isn't the same. Never before in the history of downtown Raleigh have there been so many new housing options available... and the opportunity for really affordable high density housing in the core is just now coming into sight. New businesses are being lured into downtown--these are much bigger and more hungry for office space than anything that has ever graced downtown.

Raleigh is not a rebounding city like you'd find in parts of the northeast or midwest. Even thirty years ago Raleigh was just a medium sized college town, and before that it was even less significant. Never before has Raleigh ever been this big or high-profile, and it is only set to increase multiple times in the forseeable future.

When the suburban malls were built, downtown Raleigh wasn't exactly in good shape--decades and decades of suburban growth and small-town thinking had taken its toll... I believe today we have a better understanding and a helluva lot more support for downtown and its continued development. I believe downtown looks much better today than it has in decades--certainly in my lifetime. My grandmother remembers Raleigh back in the 1930s, and how downtown was of course relatively active... remember though that this was back when that power substation on Hillsborough St (at Turner St) was considered being waaaaay out in "the sticks".

Raleigh is a booming city--it is booming a lot more than some people apparently realize. People can't expect every developer to huddle in downtown, it just isn't practical. While focus needs to be on downtown, there must be some effort to help certain worthy or potential-laden suburban areas blossom into higher density centers of business and life.

Heh, I sort of got off on a tangent there... oops.

But anyway, back to your point ncwebguy--I do agree that they better do their homework with the traffic models. The software they use is quite sophisticated and is actually more accurate than some people realize. I hope that their models are accurate and they tell people what to really expect.

[MR-2]

I love how Greensboro's Sheraton is mentioned, with so many positive implications for the area directly surrounding it. Nevermind that it helped kill Greensboro's downtown just as much as the University Tower helped kill Durham's. I remember riding through downtown GSO long ago. It was beyond dead. It was like a giant concrete stonehenge, left as relics of a lost civilization in a remote, desolate area. (That was then. I don't know how it's doing now; supposedly recovering.)

The physical structure of the hotel isn't the problem. The Sheraton in GSO isn't physically taller than Jefferson Pilot, and it's quite possible with 8-10 ft floors this project won't actually be taller than Hannover II.

The rooms are the problem. And not the hotel rooms: the offices and condos actually in that tower. These will be pretty cheap, so plenty of businesses that otherwise would've gone downtown will suddenly see an area to set up with enough space to actually contain them, and enough good things in a 10 minute drive to make the lack of urbanity worthwhile.

Well, what if RBC Centura buddies up with this project? Hell, why bother building a signature tower when someone's already got one for you? They barely need any room on their own.

One hotel might seem insignificant, but this is the largest development ever proposed in Raleigh. This single building will have more floorspace than any other building in the city.

For a city that wouldn't have a downtown at all if just two banks were removed from it, that is significant. This project will supposedly be completed before anything in downtown is. It'll have a competitive advantage in time, RTP proximity, and room price compared to everything downtown.

We'll look like a bunch of idiots. We saw all the signs from similar projects in cities right nextdoor, yet we let all the same "visionary" sensationalized boosting push us into it when normally we wouldn't consider it.

I have to disagree with you there. As stated before, Crabtree is a city focus area, and already has some near-midrise bldgs there, so it's a lot better spot for this kind of structure than a super sprawling development that Briar Creek is.

There is a difference between a focus area and an urban core. A focus area is vestigial. It does not contain the largest building in the city. It doesn't contain the city's only luxury tourist destination (or the largest one for that matter). If it does, it'll start to become an urban center of its own and compete with the main core. That is, unless it's Las Vegas. Las Vegas has had all the downtown troubles NC's cities have, and for obvious reasons. The only reasons for tourists to visit were concentrated outside of downtown. A 'focus point' out of control, you could say.

Though I can see how someone may form that analogy, it just isn't the same. Never before in the history of downtown Raleigh have there been so many new housing options available... and the opportunity for really affordable high density housing in the core is just now coming into sight. New businesses are being lured into downtown--these are much bigger and more hungry for office space than anything that has ever graced downtown.

Uh, how is $500,000 housing affordable? That's a niche market that isn't sustainable on its own. We're just tremendously hoping some budget condo retailer will show up and build something decent too, and start a trend with that.

[orulz]

I love how Greensboro's Sheraton is mentioned, with so many positive implications for the area directly surrounding it. Nevermind that it helped kill Greensboro's downtown just as much as the University Tower helped kill Durham's. I remember riding through downtown GSO long ago. It was beyond dead. It was like a giant concrete stonehenge, left as relics of a lost civilization in a remote, desolate area. (That was then. I don't know how it's doing now; supposedly recovering.)

What I hate about the Koury Convention Center hotel in Greensboro is how it's just surrounded by a massive surface parking lot. It's near to the mall, yes, but that's only one side of it. Everything else... surface parking! It's as if the hotel were built on a giant altar of worship to the high and mighty automobile. I find that to be ugly.

I don't expect the same to be true of Glen-Tree. I still have my doubts/reservations about this project, but hopefully something nice can happen and fill in the rest of the neighborhood with something appropriately urban.

RE downtown Greensboro... it's really nice these days! Elm Street has become basically what we hope Fayetteville Street can be. There's new condo buildings and conversions of old buildings, an impressive baseball stadium, a magnificent train station. Things have really come together in Downtown Greensboro. You can point your finger at the Koury hotel for killing downtown Greensboro, and while it may have played a role in the process, the fact that the Koury hotel exists and DT was dead 5 years ago are not as directly linked as you imply.

[Rufus]

outside of Glen-Tree, what new stores have been rumored for Crabtree in the near future or even the long term future? Other than Bloomingdale's has anyone heard anything about Macys or any other stores?

[dmccall]

First of all, malls and high-rise office buildings didn't kill downtowns. Bums did. Ever since we started letting people out of mental institutions to aimlessly walk the streets accosting strangers, productive people have not felt safe in urban areas. It was a sociological problem not a planning problem.

Would you rather have businesses out where people live or downtown forcing people to drive down few selected arteries to get there? That's not a loaded question, just one to ponder as we question the effect on a few stories of office building at Crabtree vs. job space downtown.

Something hit me today. Let's look forward! Build Glen-Tree now and let it be a challenge to build a taller building downtown. It would be a GREAT statement to developers considering building a tall building downtown. Raleigh has a terrible national reputation in that dept, you know? Downtown has said NO so many times to developers that they've all lost interest over the years. Don't let Greensboro's past scare you. Greensboro's unemployed, unskilled blue collar mill workers in the 70's were not attractive to companies looking to expand urban white collar jobs (that dominate downtown office buildings). Does not apply here!

What an interesting day!

[Justin6882]

The rooms are the problem. And not the hotel rooms: the offices and condos actually in that tower. These will be pretty cheap, so plenty of businesses that otherwise would've gone downtown will suddenly see an area to set up with enough space to actually contain them, and enough good things in a 10 minute drive to make the lack of urbanity worthwhile.

Are you talking about Glen Tree here? I didn't think it was going to even have office space. Just the Westin and around 56 or so condos? And cheap?? ha - they are going to be some of the most expensive in Raleigh. I think that was the idea...provide this kind of housing for those who can afford it.

[StevenRocks]

The Sheraton, Koury Center, and Four Seasons Town Centre did not "kill" downtown Greensboro. Downtown was in decline from the late '50s onward because congestion was rampant. People got sick of the crowds. Cheap automobiles and land combined with suburbanization made it easy for people to avoid the area.

Urban renewal was suppoed to make downtown modern and easier to navigate, but it drove away the population base and helped empty the area even faster of the stores that were its lifeblood.

By the time Four Seasons opened in 1974, the damage had already been done. There were already plenty of reasons to avoid downtown already built. Keep in mind, it didn't help downtown in the least, but it was only part of the problem, not "the" problem.

It took a few years, and the results aren't always obvious, but Greensboro grew enough that downtown became a legitimate business destination. It's not home to department stores or supermarkets, but it's coming back with a vengence. There's enough business for everyone.

In a similar vein, whatever GlenTree becomes, it won't help downtown Raleigh, but it won't seriously hurt it either. The height of the building in the suburbs will not meake a heap of difference when the active investment downtown is in full swing and is not tied to any specific business. Raleigh is a much biugger city than it was when downtown was last dominant, and there is more than enough business for everyone.

[JunktionFET]

For a city that wouldn't have a downtown at all if just two banks were removed from it, that is significant. This project will supposedly be completed before anything in downtown is. It'll have a competitive advantage in time, RTP proximity, and room price compared to everything downtown.

Competition is good, and property values in Crabtree and downtown are not static. I'm just trying to diffuse some of the worries you have--it seems as though you aren't factoring all of the variables or the truly unique nature of this project and the Crabtree Valley area.

There is a difference between a focus area and an urban core. A focus area is vestigial. It does not contain the largest building in the city. It doesn't contain the city's only luxury tourist destination (or the largest one for that matter). If it does, it'll start to become an urban center of its own and compete with the main core.

Again, this is definitely not last tall building or luxury hotel to ever be built in Raleigh. You and I will be long dead or very old before Raleigh has to worry about that.

Also, YES we want there to be satellite urban centers around Raleigh because it can serve to reduce the outward push of sprawl by providing areas of focused density. They don't have to rival downtown and even Crabtree certainly will not... but it is important to have something more than a SimCity downtown surrounded by a repetative suburban sea filled with malls, professional office parks, and single family homes. I wouldn't mind living in a condo or apartment downtown, but some people seriously need or want 1/3 acre and a relatively short trip to RTP. Why shouldn't they be able to enjoy a little urban flavor close to home? Of course dismantling RTP and erasing 70 years of growth is not an option, and not everyone likes being glued to their cars for everything (including actually getting to downtown).

Would you rather have businesses out where people live or downtown forcing people to drive down few selected arteries to get there? That's not a loaded question, just one to ponder as we question the effect on a few stories of office building at Crabtree vs. job space downtown.

This is the struggle urban planners are faced with. Obviously not everyone wants to live in an apartment or condo. Also there is only so much land surrounding downtown that can be used for single family homes--eventually you push out to the point where you simply cannot walk into downtown. So the answer is to mix office space and such in with the suburbs. The idea is that people will move to a house or apartment that is near their office, thus reducing the need to drive.

However, people nowadays change jobs like crazy. Not only that, but some companies also move offices--sometimes clear across town. It is impractical for someone to move each time their job changes location, so eventually what you end up with is Raleigh-style traffic during rush hour--where both directions of the major roads are clogged up, but only in certain spots.

Putting everyone's job downtown would solve nothing... instead of localized traffic congestion, you'd see massive gridlock that slowly thins out as you move away from the core.

What would this do for people who live near the core? It would severely inconvenience their life because what they thought was a great place to live (near work, ammenities) turns out to be a complete hassle except during certain times of the day or late at night. It makes life waaaay out in a rural area seem like a pretty damn good choice.

So given the choice, I'd rather see satellite urban/semiurban centers formed in the suburbs than this grand vision of downtown surrounded by 1500 square miles of houses.

Something hit me today. Let's look forward! Build Glen-Tree now and let it be a challenge to build a taller building downtown. It would be a GREAT statement to developers considering building a tall building downtown. Raleigh has a terrible national reputation in that dept, you know? Downtown has said NO so many times to developers that they've all lost interest over the years.

Amen sister.

[DigitalSky]

Off topic, but I haven't seen these rednerings of the Blount Street project before. This looks pretty nice. I can even se KK in one of the pics.

JB

those renderings are beautiful!! and lol at the artist drawing in part of the Krispy Kreme sign!

[NCMike1981]

Some1 stated above that University Tower helped kill downtown Durham. Ahem downtown Durham was dead LONG before University Tower was built in 1986, and then two years later Durham Centre was built anyway. The thing that stopped skyscrapers from being built in Durham's downtown after '88 was a combination of RTP and the end of the huge speculative building boom that brought many cities office towers in the '80's....Wasn't the nation in a recession in the early '90's when Raleigh's big 2 were built? It's amazing they were built during that time....

sorry I wandered off topic....

[sax184]

Just saw the Glen Tree thing on the front of the N&O. I hope once everyone gets beyond the "oooh, look at the shiny tower" phase of the discussion, we can actually look at what the streetscape plans are like from the 4th floor down to the earth.

Since most of the crabtree area is an urban design disaster:

Crabtree Area Crudscape Satellite Photo

this building will need to have floors of parking or massive surface lots, which of course means it will not add to any significant streetlife over there that can be accessed (for the most part) without a car.

Really, check out the photo above. No street grid, very few connectivity opportunities, and moving away from the mall parking structures you only find sprawl and highways.

The skyscraper is an urban building type meant to confer the benefits of a quality location on a particularly large number of people than could otherwise enjoy them. With 4700 sq-ft condos, this project will not have many people benefitting from its development.

It will be sold as a chance to improve the urbanity of Raleigh, but it's just a vanity project.

[MireLanski]

Competition is good, and property values in Crabtree and downtown are not static. I'm just trying to diffuse some of the worries you have--it seems as though you aren't factoring all of the variables or the truly unique nature of this project and the Crabtree Valley area.

Again, this is definitely not last tall building or luxury hotel to ever be built in Raleigh. You and I will be long dead or very old before Raleigh has to worry about that.

Also, YES we want there to be satellite urban centers around Raleigh because it can serve to reduce the outward push of sprawl by providing areas of focused density. They don't have to rival downtown and even Crabtree certainly will not... but it is important to have something more than a SimCity downtown surrounded by a repetative suburban sea filled with malls, professional office parks, and single family homes. I wouldn't mind living in a condo or apartment downtown, but some people seriously need or want 1/3 acre and a relatively short trip to RTP. Why shouldn't they be able to enjoy a little urban flavor close to home? Of course dismantling RTP and erasing 70 years of growth is not an option, and not everyone likes being glued to their cars for everything (including actually getting to downtown).

This is the struggle urban planners are faced with. Obviously not everyone wants to live in an apartment or condo. Also there is only so much land surrounding downtown that can be used for single family homes--eventually you push out to the point where you simply cannot walk into downtown. So the answer is to mix office space and such in with the suburbs. The idea is that people will move to a house or apartment that is near their office, thus reducing the need to drive.

However, people nowadays change jobs like crazy. Not only that, but some companies also move offices--sometimes clear across town. It is impractical for someone to move each time their job changes location, so eventually what you end up with is Raleigh-style traffic during rush hour--where both directions of the major roads are clogged up, but only in certain spots.

Putting everyone's job downtown would solve nothing... instead of localized traffic congestion, you'd see massive gridlock that slowly thins out as you move away from the core.

What would this do for people who live near the core? It would severely inconvenience their life because what they thought was a great place to live (near work, ammenities) turns out to be a complete hassle except during certain times of the day or late at night. It makes life waaaay out in a rural area seem like a pretty damn good choice.

So given the choice, I'd rather see satellite urban/semiurban centers formed in the suburbs than this grand vision of downtown surrounded by 1500 square miles of houses.

Amen sister.

I believe Dana is a man. Disregard if I misinterpreted "sister".

[DanRNC]

Downtown Durham may have been killed from the fact that 2 major employers in downtown went belly up-Liggett-Myers and American Tobacco. I seriously doubt the tower out on 15-501 had much of a role in this process.

[capitalapts]

Wow. I really, really hope that sanity is not in short supply when the City Council discusses this project.

This seems to me to fly in the face of all the downtown revitalization efforts that have been ongoing recently. What is the purpose of focusing high-density project efforts downtown when you're just going to allow major sprawl projects like this to continue to proceed? For this area, traffic is already nightmareish in the Crabtree Valley area throughout waking hours, just imagine what this will do.

And from an esthetic standpoint, do we really want Raleigh's signature building to be built several miles from downtown, which will only serve to de-emphasize the projects that are already being put in the ground downtown? I am a fan of the conceptual drawings I have seen of this thing, but this is not the place to put it. It belongs downtown.

I realize that I depart from many posters here in that I don't think that skyscrapers are the be-all, end-all watermark of downtown environs. I'd much prefer solid medium to high density 'shorter' development (e.g., buildings about the height of the Quorum Center) to buildings such as the one proposed at Crabtree. This thing will look very strange out there in the middle of nowhere (building-height wise), similar to that ridiculous tower in southwest Durham.

Notwithstanding the private money going into this thing, I do hope that we really think about what we're doing and where we want to go with this city (hope you're listening, city council) before allowing this to proceed.

[Jones_]

Just saw the Glen Tree thing on the front of the N&O. I hope once everyone gets beyond the "oooh, look at the shiny tower" phase of the discussion, we can actually look at what the streetscape plans are like from the 4th floor down to the earth.

Since most of the crabtree area is an urban design disaster:

Crabtree Area Crudscape Satellite Photo

this building will need to have floors of parking or massive surface lots, which of course means it will not add to any significant streetlife over there that can be accessed (for the most part) without a car.

Really, check out the photo above. No street grid, very few connectivity opportunities, and moving away from the mall parking structures you only find sprawl and highways.

The skyscraper is an urban building type meant to confer the benefits of a quality location on a particularly large number of people than could otherwise enjoy them. With 4700 sq-ft condos, this project will not have many people benefitting from its development.

It will be sold as a chance to improve the urbanity of Raleigh, but it's just a vanity project.

Crabtree certainly is a disaster and Glen Tree certainly is a vanity project. I believe, though, that there is no turning back as far as this whole area goes. You will never have the type of street level activity along Glenwood or Creedmoor Extension that a downtown has. Property owners are trying to replicate public streets with internal private "streets", like with the outdoor area at Southpoint. If Glentree put in a massive enclosed pedestrian bridge over Creedmoor Extension to the mall and the folks up the hill on the old Steak and Ale site (what is that project's name?) do the same, you get a pseudo version of an urban village. Mind you, I would hate the lack of character(chain stores suck), massive density (I rail on too much density all the time, including downtown), and obvious need for 99% of the people who want to visit to have to drive (condos waaay too expensive and bus service to Crabtree is terrible). I guess I am saying let the masses suffer the likes of Crabtree as their wallets create the demand the allows Crabtree to be a success...my wallet stays downtown...

[Subway Scoundrel]

This seems to me to fly in the face of all the downtown revitalization efforts that have been ongoing recently. What is the purpose of focusing high-density project efforts downtown when you're just going to allow major sprawl projects like this to continue to proceed? For this area, traffic is already nightmareish in the Crabtree Valley area throughout waking hours, just imagine what this will do.

Be real here !!! This is not sprawl !!!!!! Not all people are going to build and move downtown, no matter how much a few people on a blog board want it to happen. The city must grow in all directions !!! It is just best that it grows up and tight than out and sparse. People who will stay at this hotel would not necessarily stay in downtown. If that was so, the Marriott, Holiday Inn, La Quenta, Homewood Suites and all those other hotels would be empty and the people would stay at the Sheraton downtown. And that just isn't happening. Business people come to Raleigh everyday and do business outside of DT Raleigh, in RTP and along Glenwood Ave and you can build all the hotels you want downtown and they will not stay there. Same with condos. Certain people would buy at Crabtree and never buy downtown.

What kills me is when people do build something urban, people get all upset because it is 4 miles from DT and not right DT. Like Raleigh is going to be Manhattan before 2010 !!!! We are the kings of sprawl people and this is not sprawl..

[MireLanski]

Wow. I really, really hope that sanity is not in short supply when the City Council discusses this project.

This seems to me to fly in the face of all the downtown revitalization efforts that have been ongoing recently. What is the purpose of focusing high-density project efforts downtown when you're just going to allow major sprawl projects like this to continue to proceed? For this area, traffic is already nightmareish in the Crabtree Valley area throughout waking hours, just imagine what this will do.

And from an esthetic standpoint, do we really want Raleigh's signature building to be built several miles from downtown, which will only serve to de-emphasize the projects that are already being put in the ground downtown? I am a fan of the conceptual drawings I have seen of this thing, but this is not the place to put it. It belongs downtown.

I realize that I depart from many posters here in that I don't think that skyscrapers are the be-all, end-all watermark of downtown environs. I'd much prefer solid medium to high density 'shorter' development (e.g., buildings about the height of the Quorum Center) to buildings such as the one proposed at Crabtree. This thing will look very strange out there in the middle of nowhere (building-height wise), similar to that ridiculous tower in southwest Durham.

Notwithstanding the private money going into this thing, I do hope that we really think about what we're doing and where we want to go with this city (hope you're listening, city council) before allowing this to proceed.

Firstly, this project does not belong anywhere but were the developer envisioned it. This project will be a catalyst for larger denser smarter growth. This is not just plain sprawl. This is positve vertical sprawl. A qoute from the developers:

"How does this fit in with Raleigh

[JunktionFET]

I believe Dana is a man. Disregard if I misinterpreted "sister".

Oops, forgot who I was talking to. Heh, long day. I would change it to "brother", but that doesn't sound right coming out of my mouth

[mer-ceel]

This is the first test for the new council. Let's see if Russ Stephenson is going to be a "urban development friend" or "King Nimby" Since it pasted the planning commission, I think he will vote yes but should be interesting. I think I will send him an email.

Russ will be sworn in sometime in December 2005 to the City Council. I understand from the media reports that he voted "Yes" as a member of Planning Commission. The dissenting vote was fro Betsy Kane.

[MireLanski]

Be real here !!! This is not sprawl !!!!!! Not all people are going to build and move downtown, no matter how much a few people on a blog board want it to happen. The city must grow in all directions !!! It is just best that it grows up and tight than out and sparse. People who will stay at this hotel would not necessarily stay in downtown. If that was so, the Marriott, Holiday Inn, La Quenta, Homewood Suites and all those other hotels would be empty and the people would stay at the Sheraton downtown. And that just isn't happening. Business people come to Raleigh everyday and do business outside of DT Raleigh, in RTP and along Glenwood Ave and you can build all the hotels you want downtown and they will not stay there. Same with condos. Certain people would buy at Crabtree and never buy downtown.

What kills me is when people do build something urban, people get all upset because it is 4 miles from DT and not right DT. Like Raleigh is going to be Manhattan before 2010 !!!! We are the kings of sprawl people and this is not sprawl..

Well spoken. I agree. To add to that, executives and other athletes, or heck anybody who wants opulent accomodations must travel as far as Pittboro and Chapel Hill for a luxury hotel in the vicinity of the triangle.

We can't discourage this growth. This is what we have been hoping for in some respects. This building could actually convince people like myself to stay in Raleigh and wait a little longer. I wanted to move. Because all I was seeing was small minded growth in a large city. Our population is 350,000 almost. And will probably be 400,000 in the next ten years. Think about that number. We will soon (next two years)surpass the population of cities with Pro teams. We have one Pro team. No 4 star hotel. No resturant with a world class chef. No desirable mass transit system. No abundance of non-chain resturants ( Durham has cornered this market). Raleigh still has the "I am a large suburb" attitude. Well to those...let this tower be a "slap in the face" or given it's tall stature, a suppository.

I for one am for this in every way. I for one am for the civic center. I for one am for the blount street redevelopment. I am for the growth of Raleigh.

[dmccall]

Glen-Tree wouldn't be Raleigh's "signature building" if the City Council would put an emphasis on not building CRAP downtown. They JUST approved the phonebook-on-its-side Marriott, a building which COULD BE Raleigh's signature.

The new convention center could have been a signature building, but no, it will join our other forgettable structures downtown. Does anyone want to recall the Triangle's signature project of 1987? It was the forgettable Terminal C at RDU. We're already tearing that one down. We'll feel the same way about the Convention Center's exterior in 20 years.

Currently our "signature building" is an outdated, functionless cattle showcase building outside the beltline. I for one am sick of waiting for interesting architecture downtown.

[mer-ceel]

I believe that RBC is very much committed to be in DT. There was quite a bit of media coverage on this. Further Capital Bank recently announced that they were moving to DT also, and moving 150 HP jobs.

I was at the Public Hearing and the issue of traffic was discussed by the Planning Commission. The City Staff informed that a study was conducted and that the traffic impact now was 40 to 50 percent below budgeted trips allowed for the project.

Also at the hearing the ballon pictures were replaced with the picture of the building. I was quite surprised that the height really was not an issue. The reason was that the tower that rises is only 6300 gross square feet and not 40,000 or 50,000 square feet of an office building. The design of the building is breath taking.

I understand that they have video tapes of the hearing available from the City of Raleigh for $60.00.

[avery]

I have a few comments on some of the posts on this topic. The first issue is sprawl. Just because something is built outside of downtown does not equate to sprawl. This project is a 222 room hotel with 40 condos. 40 Residences...that's it. If had the purchasing power to buy one of these, I would rather live in the Crabtree area than downtown. The conveniences of the surrounding area at the current time is better at Crabtree than downtown. This may soon change, but until it does, you can not fault someone sinking $100 million into a project without looking at the realistic expectations of filling up the building.

Secondly, I want to talk about the horrors of traffic at Crabtree. How is a hotel and 40 more condos going to significantly change traffic in the area? Should we just cut growth off completely in this area so the traffic can remain status quo? I've mentioned adding a rail line to this area before with mixed reactions. If traffic is so bad, how can we improve it? Ask people to take the bus more or what about expanding cab service? I don't really know that answer, but to cut growth off completely is not an answer. If that were the answer, then the same would apply to downtown. Should we cut off growth in downtown and not allow companies to relocate there because we fear the nightmare of clogged roads? I can just imagine trying to leave a parking garage with thousands of people at 5:00 and heading down Fayetteville Street when everyone heads home. I just don't see the logic in this argument on traffic.

I realize that the ideal scenario is to build everything within walking distance to where everyone lives, but that is a pipe dream. It can't be done in an area so spread out already. The existing businesses just won't allow it economically. You aren't going to see grocery stores at every corner because it would not be feasible. Also, ground level shopping on every new project in Raleigh is not ideal either. I can see where this would work more so in downtown than in areas such as Crabtree. Just how many people are going to start small businesses in an area already saturated with restaurants and shopping? Maybe a few will come along, but there will come a point where not every project needs to include retail on the ground floor.

From what I can tell, downtown Raleigh already has its share of proposals and I wouldn't worry so much about Glentree being the end all of downtown. When a develelor is ready to sink $100 mill of their own cash into downtown, we will all be on here gloating about it. Until that person comes along, then I am not so sure that downtown is ready for it. It's their money and their responsibility to turn a profit on it and apparently the Soleil Group doesn't feel that downtown will do that for them.

[MireLanski]

Glen-Tree wouldn't be Raleigh's "signature building" if the City Council would put an emphasis on not building CRAP downtown. They JUST approved the phonebook-on-its-side Marriott, a building which COULD BE Raleigh's signature.

The new convention center could have been a signature building, but no, it will join our other forgettable structures downtown. Does anyone want to recall the Triangle's signature project of 1987? It was the forgettable Terminal C at RDU. We're already tearing that one down. We'll feel the same way about the Convention Center's exterior in 20 years.

Currently our "signature building" is an outdated, functionless cattle showcase building outside the beltline. I for one am sick of waiting for interesting architecture downtown.

Again, in the Marriott's defense. It is not Bilboa of Spain but, it is not bad. Neither is the civic center. But if we keep building guess what will happen. Artistic developers will want to build her. Remember the Hearst building wasn't the 1st building built in Charlotte, it was constructed years after Charlotte's other high-rises.

Let's keep in mind that this is a very delicate flower, our downtown is. It has already been browning on the pedals. The Marriott is safe. It's style is safe. And I like it...as I mentioned before, the ground floor is cool. Besides, would you look at the ghastly Sheraton. Anything to help me forget that brick monstrosity is welcomed. Now, concerning the Convention center, what were you expecting? They did a really good job with that thing in my humble opinion. Are you comparing to other cities again?

For the time being, I want this Glen-Tree to be, if not be our literal signature building, at least the iconic building it should be. We want this thing to be seen. And the beltline is not a bad place for visual exploitation.