Soleil Center I & II at Crabtree

[mer-ceel]

Talking about Politics

Found it pretty interesting. Check this out - "Tale of Two Hotels"

[MR-2]

One thing I certainly don't hate about Glen Tree is the tax revenue it'll generate. Raleigh needs all the help it can get in that department, considering the projects it's planning. I really wish we had 'a market' competing to build the tallest building, but we don't so far as I can tell. That could be a while.

That first article completely sidestepped the main subject that's driving Raleigh politics currently: downtown revitalization. Anything going downtown at this point is a good thing. Especially a 400-room 4-star hotel. It isn't a very good deal, but that's probably because there aren't any better ones.

[paletexan]

There is an article on the Glen Tree Tower in today's N&O.

http://www.newsobserver.com/news/story/282...p-9278770c.html

It states the project will go before the city council today, and there is an interesting image showing what it might look like coming down Creedmoor road from the north. It looks a little strange all by itself, and needs a friend eventually if approved.

[dmccall]

...and the City Council meets today at 1:00pm and at 7:00pm. Glen Tree is midway throught the agenda document. Probably will be on TV today, ?mid afternoon?

http://tinyurl.com/c3rsb

Select Agenda.doc

[ChiefJoJo]

I think I will go check it out today at 1.

[ChiefJoJo]

Raleigh will have a new tallest building.

The council voted 7-1 to approve (conditional pending any design changes) the Glen-Tree Westin Hotel/Condos. Thomas Crowder was the only dissenter, saying it was clearly in violation of the Comprehensive Plan. Once the vote was carried, the audience gave a standing ovation. There seemed to be no opposition to the project other than Crowder's concerns.

[Justin6882]

Awesome news! Thanks for the update!

[avery]

Good news Raleigh! I am interested to see if this decision spurs additional development around Crabtree and other areas in Raleigh. I wonder if this opens the way for additional developers to test the Raleigh waters to see if they can get the backing as this project did.

Is Briar Creek or Triangle Town Center going to get projects such as this? I guess only time will tell. Who here thinks that these two areas are a little odd for high-rise development? I can see Crabtree and downtown, but I would rather see this type of development concentrated around and inside 440 myself.

Here's hoping for an announcement from RBC this week on downtown headquarters.

[orulz]

Drifting from topic:

Considering how this got approved so handily, Meeker, etc. will probably rescind any lingering criticism about height and location for the Reynolds tower, if that project ever actually happens.

Back on topic:

Now that it's approved, I still have mixed feelings about the project. It seems they're going to do a good job screening the parking deck - making it blend in with the rest of the building and look like normal, habitable space. But I want to know how this project will integrate with and improve the area around the mall. I have high hopes, but honestly pretty low expectations. I'm hoping for at least a lobby on the ground floor, but even that is unlikely, due to the "The whole experience starts on the seventh floor" comment.

Up until now, questions of accessibility and walkability have been answered by "Oh, we'll take care of that," with few details at best. I forsee this becoming an island (a very tall, distinctive island, but an island nonetheless) accessible only by car that will do nothing to turn Crabtree Valley into an more urban, walkable area.

I am glad, however, that the city did not set a precedent of turning down tall buildings. It was a tough call, but I'm sure that fear of that precedent is what got Meeker et al to go along with it in the end.

I still wonder just how many of those huge condos they'll be able to sell. Perhaps they're counting on speculators, but in the end if it doesn't go well they might end up scaling it down regardless of council approval.

[urbanesq]

I am utterly amazed, aghast even, that the Council didn't at least send the matter to its comprehensive planning committee. It's a development of tremendous impact, and worthy of careful consideration. Oh, well. Maybe not.

Now that it's approved, I hope it succeeds, and hope makes a nice addition to Raleigh's tax base and I really hope it doesn't draw market share and energy away from downtown.

I do think it will be dramatic. I do not think it will add anything to the appearance of the Crabtree area or the community as a whole. Did you see the rendering from the Creedmoor Rd. angle? NOT an attractive piece of architecture. I hope it will add to the life of the area, but I doubt it will. I think that despite the height, it's just an example of stacked sprawl.

Anyhow, like I said, here's hopin' it will be an asset for the city, and not derail all the efforts going into downtown.

[dmccall]

Very interesting! Thanks for the info. I also hope this will not affect downtown, and don't think it will. Converse to urbanesq, I think it looks pretty awe inspring from the Creedmoor Rd angle. I was in downtown Atlanta this weekend and could feel my heart race looking at the INVITING tall buildings. Nobody will visit the Crabtree area and say,"MAN! Is this town asleep?"

[avery]

I bet the views from the top floor of Glen-Tree will look pretty cool. I wonder how much the top floor condo will go for?

[ChiefJoJo]

A few points:

1. Meeker did have quesions about Glen-Tree and how it fits into the Raleigh Comprehensive Plan (which makes no mention of height restriction in focus areas), and specifically mentioned that the concerns over height are somewhat reduced considering the low elevation of the Crabtree Valley area and the high quality of design of the building.

2. On the traffic impact, it was mentioned that the uses (hotel/condo) are not high peak hour generators that would degrade the roads much more and the old Sheraton hotel actually had more hotel rooms than the new Westin will.

3. It's clear that there was significant support for this project. The room was full, and there was literally zero opposition that I could detect in the crowd. I suspect that Meeker had his concerns (like Crowder) and his vote was probably borderline, but didn't want to come out on the opposition side on this overwhelmingly popular and high-profile project.

4. I got a sense from talking with a local developer who was there that Glen-Tree will be the type of development to compliment DT Raleigh and really attract more developers and high-profile projects to the area. The sense is that if Glen-Tree were denied, which is an infill development, it would detract from Raleigh's appeal in the development community.

[orulz]

I bet the views from the top floor of Glen-Tree will look pretty cool.

I'm not so sure. There's really not a whole lot to look at from out there. No buildings more than 10 stories tall, the massive concrete blob that is the roof and parking deck of Crabtree, a huge highway, and little in the way of natural features. Plus, it's 5 miles from downtown, so no skyline there either. Perhaps looking down on a giant parking deck is awe-inspiring to some people, but speaking for myself it's not too great.

Probably the most impressive sight from up there will be... the beltline. Hmm. Once again, I wonder how much of a market there is here... but if the developers think they can do it, now there's nothing to keep them from trying.

[sax184]

Message to developers: what comprehensive plan?!?!?!!!

Really, I hope it works out better than I expect, and I particularly hope it doesn't tank financially halfway through construction.

However, the message here is if you're spending enough private money on a big project, the comp plan doesn't matter in Raleigh. Where's the line? $50 million? $25 million? $10 million?

Hats off to Thomas Crowder for courage.

[avery]

orulz, I was actually thinking that the views of downtown might be interesting. It should offer a new angle. I agree that parking lots and mechanical junk on top of the mall are not so nice to look at...

[ChiefJoJo]

I wonder how much of a market there is here... but if the developers think they can do it, now there's nothing to keep them from trying.

I was told the 4k+ sf / $1M+ condos will be very limited. They encompass the entire floorplan of the floors those condos are on, but only the top 5-6 floors will have them, so you're looking at 5-6 units total at that price. I was told they won't have a problem finding buyers for those, as hard as that may be to believe.

Message to developers: what comprehensive plan?!?!?!!!

Again, it was noted that there is no specific height requirement in the CP for that end of Crabtree--just 9 stories for the mall area.

[sax184]

Again, it was noted that there is no specific height requirement in the CP for that end of Crabtree--just 9 stories for the mall area.

I'm sure that's correct but I don't think that's what Crowder meant. I think his point is that the city has laid out where the "centers" of Raleigh are, an they are downtown, Brier Creek, and Triangle Town Center, I believe. Crabtree was supposed to be a second-tier center.

[waynehead]

Something tells me in 5 years or so people will be complaining about that eyesore north of the beltline and how it sucked the momentum out of the downtown revitlization...

...but I hope I'm wrong.

[urbanesq]

it's 5 miles from downtown, so no skyline there either.

Actually, one can see hints of the Crabtree already, and the Duke Raleigh Hospital quite clearly from the top floors of the BB&T building, so I imagine one will be able to see downtown from the GlenTree.

I get inspired driving toward the buildingS (note the S) in the high-rise areas of big cities, too. Point being that Raleigh is not yet a market able to support a single high-rise center (downtown) let alone multiple ones. I think the building (note the lack of an S) will look lonely for years to come, a la University Tower still standing out there on 15-501 by itself in Durham.

[urbanesq]

Something tells me in 5 years or so people will be complaining about that eyesore north of the beltline and how it sucked the momentum out of the downtown revitlization...

...but I hope I'm wrong.

I hope you're wrong, too. But I think you're not. (They'll also be criticizing the city leaders for pouring all that money into the revitalized Fayetteville St. and the convention center and its hotel and not making the connection that development like the Glen-Tree necessitated those subsidies -- just like people blamed Fayetteville Street Mall, and NOT Crabtree Mall, for the death of downtown.)

Anyhow, it's a done deal, so here's hoping that we both get a healthy dose of "I told you so" from all the Glen-Tree supporters on the board when, in 5 years, downtown is thriving with a spate of new towers to house all the private investment in the city's core, and the Glen-Tree has added life and vitality to the street in the Crabtree area, and sparked a vibrant booming mid-town with a dozen high-rise architectural wonders.

[romec]

I agree as far as being able to see downtown from glentree (and vice versa). Downtown sits about 150 feet in elevation higher than Crabtree valley. If this thing flirts with the mid to upper 400's as planned, downtown should be easy to see, above 200 feet, nothing is really going to get in your sight line to downtown. 5 miles isn't that far for visibility. However let me know if you can see downtown durham at 16 miles away :-)

[dmccall]

The King and Queen buildings in Atlanta sit near Perimeter mall with no peer. They are not an eyesore and don't seem to be "out of place".

I cannot locate the actual heights of the buildings, but they are at least 30 stories of office floors.

[ChiefJoJo]

Something tells me in 5 years or so people will be complaining about that eyesore north of the beltline and how it sucked the momentum out of the downtown revitlization...

...but I hope I'm wrong.

I think so. GlenTree is a big development, but when you consider what is already going on in DT, the momentum is still going to be there, and may even be higher if GlenTree actually attracts more developers to Raleigh. Also, the old Sheraton had MORE HOTEL ROOMS than the new Westin will. The only difference will be the retail element, and the high-end condos on the upper floors.

So essentially you are adding a higher end **** hotel--which was in high demand in this market anyway (see the Umstead in Cary and the Renaissance at N. Hills)--to a site that previously had one with fewer rooms, plus 58 super luxury condos, many of which are almost completely unique in this market. I don't see anything substantive in this project when really examining it that would hurt DT Raleigh, other than the fact DT will no longer be home to the area's tallest building.

[Justin6882]

^for now