Soleil Center I & II at Crabtree

[sax184]

Be real here !!! This is not sprawl !!!!!! Not all people are going to build and move downtown, no matter how much a few people on a blog board want it to happen. The city must grow in all directions !!! It is just best that it grows up and tight than out and sparse. People who will stay at this hotel would not necessarily stay in downtown. If that was so, the Marriott, Holiday Inn, La Quenta, Homewood Suites and all those other hotels would be empty and the people would stay at the Sheraton downtown. And that just isn't happening. Business people come to Raleigh everyday and do business outside of DT Raleigh, in RTP and along Glenwood Ave and you can build all the hotels you want downtown and they will not stay there. Same with condos. Certain people would buy at Crabtree and never buy downtown.

What kills me is when people do build something urban, people get all upset because it is 4 miles from DT and not right DT. Like Raleigh is going to be Manhattan before 2010 !!!! We are the kings of sprawl people and this is not sprawl..

No, cities must not necessarily grow in all directions. They must not grow into watersheds that we use for drinking water, for example.

With all due respect, I think you're missing the point of those of us criticizing. Building this project (an urban building type) in this location (a suburban sprawl wasteland) negates any of the redeeming urbanity that a high-rise building, when placed in the proper context, brings to its residents and visitors.

Is this "sprawl?" That's questionable. Technically, it's infill because the area is already significantly development. But that's a low threshold to leap. At the same time, does the project promote traditional urban form-- (the village or town, with walking and local business as part of the life of the community)? NO. The key benefit of a skyscraper is that many, many, people living/working in it get to enjoy the benefits of an exalted public realm at the bottom. Does this project pass that test? NO, on two counts.

1. The public realm at Crabtree is fabricated (center of the mall) or nonexistent.

2. There just won't be a lot of people living in the building. 40 floors, 1 condo per floor- at 4700 sq feet and all luxury, these will be $800k - $2 million, I guess. That sounds like a recipe for older wealthy couples, 2 people per unit max. This building is probably nowhere near the density of some of the stuff downtown that is only 4-6 stories but has 800- 2000 Sq ft units.

Also, I question your market analysis for the hotel guests. If you're the type who likes 4-star hotels, and stays at them on business in other cities, they are usually to be found in downtown locations (including skyscrapers) and confer on hotel guests the same benefits mentioned above- walking access to restaurants, convention centers, sports arenas, transportation hubs, performing arts venues, museums, and corporate headquarters.

Is the person who stays in such locations the same person who does not choose a downtown Raleigh hotel and stays at La Quinta or Homewood Suites instead? I suggest the answer is no. I submit the person who chooses La Quinta or Holiday Inn over the downtown Sheraton as a conscious decision does so for the following reasons, in the following order.

1. Price

2. Ease of Auto Access to highways, destinations, etc.

3. Fear of downtown locations in general and comfort with suburban locales.

If you're choosing on price, you wouldn't stay at a luxury hotel. You're not going to divert La Quinta and Quality Inn guests to a luxury hotel in a skyscraper. So the next question is, will a luxury hotel bring NEW people to Raleigh? Maybe- I'm not sure. But if most luxury hotels are in locations that usually have the benefits of traditional urbanity, why would you come to Raleigh (when you wouldn't before) to stay in a high rise hotel with all the costs of a luxury center city hotel, none of the benefits, and the general lack of access/traffic problems of suburbia?

Second- who's going to buy the condos? Again- it's the price/building height of the urban luxury living arrangement with none of the traditional amenities. You're also giving up the suburban McMansion amenity package (large lot, tranquil setting, privacy of multiple acres) but taking on its hassles (traffic). I imagine there are some rich people who like a good view who are afraid of living in Downtown or Glenwood South, but is there really a residential market for this building?

I remain unconvinced. If this goes forward, it will be interesting to see pre-sale percentage versus the same in Glenwood South/Downtown.

[DanRNC]

This Glen Tree development is a litmus test for Raleigh. The perception of outsiders is that Raleigh is anti-development in the corporate sense. The city has no problem with allowing strip malls to be slapped up everywhere but is generally a lot more restrictive to high profile projects such as this one. I hate to say it, but it seems like the city is a bit arrogant in the sense that they think they can dictate what projects they want and where to put them and what they should look like unless its a Super Wal-Mart. The bottom line is this project is NOT going downtown. The Crabtree Mall area is not beautiful, the old rotting hotel is not beautiful, and without a major development such as this this area will probably not develop significantly. If this project gets nixed I would imagine development companies would be very weery of spending time and money to build or speculate in Raleigh. I often wonder if you have to be a Raleigh insider to get any project approved (ie Smedes York, John Kane, etc.).

This may be a bit inflammatory on here, but I think Raleigh has lived off the reputation of other cities/universities/RTP in the Triangle to inflate their own ego. Although I like Raleigh a lot, they (the city/county government) need to lose the attitude as the place isn't that great.

[Subway Scoundrel]

OK, here is where I show my "old raleighite self" I wonder if they are thinking about the road changes at Crabtree (create one way traffic on both sides of the mall )that were created/talked about 15-20 years ago. They have built on some of the land so it may not be possible. I don't think this hotel/condo will drive that much traffic. Remember, there was a hotel there before. I think building a streetscape in the parking lot outside of Belks will create more traffic.

But the old plan had Glenwood or what is the current 8 lanes of Glenwood and all those lanes would be outbound and the inbound lanes would come into town between the current hotel and the BB&T/Nationwide. The break-off would be around the Golden Corral Building/HQ and feed into the road that runs behind Crabtree. This would be the inbound lane into town/beltline It would be changed over to 4-6-8 lanes and would exit through by the McDonalds and through where the hotels (LA Quenta) is now and go across the beltline and a new Interstate like road would run inside the current inner loop and merge back with the beltline I-440 somewhere around Lake Boone trail. It was voted down and probably good it was.

Again, I don't think this development will drive that much traffic. And Crabtree is bad traffic but nothing like other cities traffic on roads without Malls.

[orulz]

I think this proposal tells us something that we don't want to hear.

When talking about Raleigh with most people - natives or out-of-towners, downtown hardly even comes onto the radar screen. Most locals go downtown to protest a speeding ticket or see a show at the Progress Center or the Imax a couple times a year. Quite a few people work downtown, but very few actually want to spend time there. Fayetteville Street is not the best-known street in Raleigh, that honor is held by the Beltline. In the hearts and minds of locals, visitors, and investors alike, Crabtree Valley Mall is the closest thing to epicenter of activity that exists in Raleigh, and it has been that way for years. And wishing it weren't so is not a reason to turn this project down.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't this project basically in line with the city's zoning codes for the area? (no height restrictions, right?) Hotels and condos are hardly major traffic generators, the environmental footprint in terms of runoff, impervious surface, and deforestation will be small (much smaller than, say, your average strip mall in western Wake). To top it off, there is apparently a complete lack of opposition to the building's height - so turning it down is not an appropriate course of action, even just for the precedent it would set. If the Planning Commission and City Council turn the city's codes into a moving target then few will consider building anything other than run-of-the-mills suburban schlock anywhere in Raleigh, because that's all they know will get approved.

What this project does tell us, is that downtown has a long way to go before it regains its rightful position as the "heart" of Raleigh. Neither the convention center nor Fayetteville Street nor TTA's regional rail (if it gets built) will be the silver bullet to make it happen. It must reach a critical mass where the majority of Raleighites - even the suburbanites with kids and jobs in RTP - consider it to be a 'cool' place and want to spend their time there. This process will be gradual, there will be bumps in the road, and - ready for it - we're not even close to being "on the verge" yet. That doesn't mean that we or anyone else should give up on downtown - but understanding our situation helps us improve it far more than being in denial about it.

[mer-ceel]

check this link:

Raleighmsa

[Subway Scoundrel]

We agree to disagree...

No, cities must not necessarily grow in all directions. They must not grow into watersheds that we use for drinking water, for example.

Watersheds ? Not even a realistic comparison.

At the same time, does the project promote traditional urban form-- (the village or town, with walking and local business as part of the life of the community)?

It is a hotel so therefore it is not part of the life of the community. People come in and people leave. They come to Raleigh for a reason, they do what they need to do and they leave. If they have spare time, they will look for something to do as walk to the mall. Given the chance, no matter what is built DT in the next 20 years, where do you think a person in North Raleigh is going to set up a friend or relative in a nice hotel if they are coming for the weekend. My bet is 60%-70% of the time, they will choose the mall. Sorry, I don’t like it, but that is the way it is.

2. There just won't be a lot of people living in the building. 40 floors, 1 condo per floor- at 4700 sq feet and all luxury, these will be $800k - $2 million, I guess. That sounds like a recipe for older wealthy couples, 2 people per unit max. This building is probably nowhere near the density of some of the stuff downtown that is only 4-6 stories but has 800- 2000 Sq ft units.

That is why it is not downtown

Also, I question your market analysis for the hotel guests. If you're the type who likes 4-star hotels, and stays at them on business in other cities, they are usually to be found in downtown locations (including skyscrapers) and confer on hotel guests the same benefits mentioned above- walking access to restaurants, convention centers, sports arenas, transportation hubs, performing arts venues, museums, and corporate headquarters.

You answered your own question. We don't have a sports arena DT, but a straight shot from this hotel down the street from the RBC. For HQs and corporate locations, it is easily accessible to Glenwood Ave, North Raleigh and RTP where the vast majority of these locations are. I work with people coming in from around the world into RTP and they stay at the hotels near Crabtree because it is near something to do like shop and a large choice of restaurants. Sad to say, they would never stay downtown. For Transportation Hubs---It is closer to the airport and that is our largest hub. And right, people who stay at La Quinta would not stay there, but I don't buy that a 4-star hotel has to be DT. I don't see that in my travels and I travel all the time. Yes, they are in DTs but they are also found all over larger cities. They are built where people will stay. And our DT can not support six 4-star hotels. In you logic stand, the Umstead/SAA, The New Renaissance/North Hills and arena /4-Star hotel should not be built because it is not DT. Again, people stay in 4-star hotels because that is where they want to stay for what ever reason and it is near where they want to be.

Is the person who stays in such locations the same person who does not choose a downtown Raleigh hotel and stays at La Quinta or Homewood Suites instead? I suggest the answer is no. I submit the person who chooses La Quinta or Holiday Inn over the downtown Sheraton as a conscious decision does so for the following reasons, in the following order.

1. Price

2. Ease of Auto Access to highways, destinations, etc.

3. Fear of downtown locations in general and comfort with suburban locales.

I Agree

If you're choosing on price, you wouldn't stay at a luxury hotel. You're not going to divert La Quinta and Quality Inn guests to a luxury hotel in a skyscraper. So the next question is, will a luxury hotel bring NEW people to Raleigh? Maybe- I'm not sure. But if most luxury hotels are in locations that usually have the benefits of traditional urbanity, why would you come to Raleigh (when you wouldn't before) to stay in a high rise hotel with all the costs of a luxury center city hotel, none of the benefits, and the general lack of access/traffic problems of suburbia?

Again, a 4-star hotel in DT is not going to bring people to Raleigh or the Triangle. They are here for a reason and people stay outside of DT everyday in every major city. In my own case, I go to Colorado 8 times a year and I stay in a 4-star hotel on the interstate near a mall about 15 miles outside of Denver. The reason, it is near where I am working/visiting. And I can walk to restaurants and it is near. I would never stay DT just to stay DT. Most people live outside of DT and they will stay in hotels outside of DT. Yes, it is sad, but is true.....

Second- who's going to buy the condos? Again- it's the price/building height of the urban luxury living arrangement with none of the traditional amenities. You're also giving up the suburban McMansion amenity package (large lot, tranquil setting, privacy of multiple acres) but taking on its hassles (traffic). I imagine there are some rich people who like a good view who are afraid of living in Downtown or Glenwood South, but is there really a residential market for this building?

Let the market decide. A prime example is the couple who lives across the street from my parents. They are selling their house and my guess, they will get between $800--$1M. They live inside the beltline and are moving to a place near this property where they don't have to do yard work, house upkeep. They will pay monthly fees, limit their storage, etc. to live There are more of these people than anyone thinks. Again, let the market decide.

I remain unconvinced. If this goes forward, it will be interesting to see pre-sale percentage versus the same in Glenwood South/Downtown.

Let the market decide. It is their $100M to make it work

We agree to disagree but the market drives real estate and if it does not go as planned, they will just cut it up into 2-3 a floor and work from there. No different than they have done DT......

What does a couple who are both 25 YO build need with a 5000K ft house? Not sure but they are all over the North Raleigh and Cary. Who would have ever thunk.....

Again, we agree to disagree.....

[urbanvb]

Here is my small 2 cents worth. I have mixed feelings on the tower being built. I do believe an urban project could work here but I am not sure about such a large one. Either way I am glad to see something of an urban nature being built. In my mind I could see developers taking note of this tower and as others have already said, decide to build even larger in the DT area. Once someone builds something this tall you can believe developers will take notice and just a few miles down the road is a good opportunity to build even taller. And because this is mostly a hotel tower with a few residences added in the mix I wouldn't think it would bring much more traffic congestion. Hoteliers come in and out at all different times so that also helps. We currenlty have two huge projects going on in the Hampton Roads area with the Granby Tower in Norfolk and the Westin Inn with residences in Va Beach, the latter supposedly the state's tallest building. But really who knows until all is said and done which building will be tallest.

Secondly, Wake County is on fire and adds 3400+ people a month to its economy. As DT grows and more urban projects are available I think even more will be built. There is a strong demand for urban dwellings from these younger people that are moving into the area. I would think DT construction will not slow anytime soon but rather continue and perhaps even at a faster pace.

[sax184]

We agree to disagree...

Fair enough, but we certainly disagree broadly!

I also posit that nobody NEEDS a 5000 sq ft house. Though that doesn't mean we shouldn't let people build them.

As for letting the market decide, well, the market has made some pretty crummy decisions around the Triangle in how it gets built. But if Crabtree is the "heart" of Raleigh, as some have suggested, then maybe the City Council should be getting to look and act like the heart of a community rather than a place to conduct commerce.

If Raleigh envisions itself as largely a group of self-interested consumers, then this thing is right on the money. If the City thinks of itself as a community of citizens, there are better models for what Crabtree, the ostensible community center, should become.

The DPZ Transect

[dmccall]

That's a good point, Mire. We do need to keep big MO going in Raleigh! I firmly believe that if we keep pushing the midrise stuff in downtown the tall stuff will follow! This is definitely an exciting time!!! (how long has it been since someone mentioned the...the...the Clarion, for example!!)

[MR-2]

I think with or without the Glen-Tree project Hannover II will remain the "signature building" of Raleigh. The Reynolds tower, on the other hand, could change that. Downtown doesn't have many architecturally inclined buildings because it doesn't have many buildings to begin with.

The hotel isn't that bad. I think it's more of an E shape than a "phone book" per se. The future condos on Fay street should look snappy. The Reynolds tower, whatever it is, will look snappy. Now that stuff is actually getting built, Raleigh has a chance to experiment with its style.

[capitalapts]

Firstly, this project does not belong anywhere but were the developer envisioned it. This project will be a catalyst for larger denser smarter growth. This is not just plain sprawl. This is positve vertical sprawl. A qoute from the developers:

"How does this fit in with Raleigh

[MR-2]

I'm getting a sense from some of the pro- arguments that downtown is dead and hopeless to revive. Crabtree is the new hotness, so let's build everything there. I think the psychological battle can still be won. I think with the right developments we can pull people from all throughout the 'burbs downtown on the weekends, on the holidays, on the casual afternoons, and not just during work hours.

A grounded canoe can't just paddle away. It needs a push first before it's of any use to anyone, no matter where they want to take it.

Crabtree is a soulless parking deck with a few shops in the middle of a few crowded intersections. Downtown has history. It has lots of potential. It still has a shred of urbanity left.

This project would be better suited to downtown simply because it would provide potential customers for retailers considering a location to move into. Well, Crabtree is a retail hotspot right now. Downtown needs to be. Perhaps we should gravitate toward helping the place that needs it.

Though considering the ugliness of the tower, I'm semi-glad it isn't downtown.

[Jones_]

That's a good point, Mire. We do need to keep big MO going in Raleigh! I firmly believe that if we keep pushing the midrise stuff in downtown the tall stuff will follow! This is definitely an exciting time!!! (how long has it been since someone mentioned the...the...the Clarion, for example!!)

Thank you Dana!! And have faith in the Reynolds folks! I would not discount them trying to top Glen Tree at some point. They are very capable and agressive folks. High Density suburbia (hey, a new description for Crabtree!) cannot trump downtown in the long run!

[MR-2]

Thank you Dana!! And have faith in the Reynolds folks! I would not discount them trying to top Glen Tree at some point. They are very capable and agressive folks. High Density suburbia (hey, a new description for Crabtree!) cannot trump downtown in the long run!

Well... Houston and Las Vegas would like a word with you.

[mer-ceel]

I heard that the city of Raleigh has asked Dean of the school of design to review the DT Marriot Hotel, since it does not meet their expectations. Does anyone know how this review is coming along.

[capitalapts]

A couple of other issues:

1. Is there a planned nearby TTA light rail stop to Crabtree Valley that would service the proposed tower?

2. Any way you cut it, Crabtree Creek will flood again and will impact new development on its floodplain. Developing on floodplains is simply a bad practice. Will this fact (flooding) be addressed in all facets of the project's design? I did see the architects did account for some flooding impact by orienting some of the building's floors, but if there is accompanying street-level development (which there should be, otherwise this is a floating tower that doesn't serve any use to pedestrians), will it be built in a manner that deals with flooding?

[Jones_]

Well... Houston and Las Vegas would like a word with you.

I was inferring OUR downtown which has a host of things going for it, not the least of which is a mayor and council that support it...for once. With that you get things like a non-profit booster, enhanced police coverage, infrastructure attention, public facility development alongside an underappreciated artistic/intellectual class of people in this city that for years toughed it out while the Gap shoppers of the world continued to follow the glitz and glam farther outward. Once the historic preservationists, gay communuty, and art groups make downtown cool again, all the people who have a hard time thinking for themselves will return to downtown with their Starbucks (instead of say Cup-A-Joe), move into The Paramount (instead of the cotton mill), and wonder what is taking so long for a TGI Fridays's to open up.

[raleighfan]

They're discussing this on the Bill LuMaye show (680 WPTF) if anyone's interested...

[JunktionFET]

So, wherever a given developer feels that landmark structures of the sort proposed here are supposed to go, that is where they will indisputably go then, without any consideration given to what Raleigh's citizens, let alone the city council, feel? Balderdash-that's why a review process is in place.

True, but I have a problem with people just defaulting to "it should go downtown", almost as though they haven't even bothered to weigh the other side of the argument with anything resembling objectivity. By design and intention it doesn't belong downtown. Why should it go there? And no, this is not the last building to ever grace Raleigh's doorstep.

A city that is as sprawled as Raleigh is going to require some focused development throughout its suburban mass. Concentrating everything except for McMansions downtown is completely impractical and is an example of very poor planning.

While downtown needs to remain the heart of Raleigh, it is also very wise to think about the rest of the city. Raleigh covers a lot of ground, you know? A couple small satellite urban-ish centers out in the 'burbs is a very good thing to do. Crabtree Valley is the perfect spot for one of these centers, so is North Hills and perhaps the WakeMed area.

Perhaps your family doesn't like to come downtown because foolish, unbridled development has been allowed to proceed far outside the city center, thereby diminishing downtown's prominence/focus, a tact that projects like this one only serve to reinforce. Furthermore, projects like this one can raise the bar even higher on what degree of high-rise development is allowed to occur in the suburbs.

I'm getting a sense from some of the pro- arguments that downtown is dead and hopeless to revive. Crabtree is the new hotness, so let's build everything there. I think the psychological battle can still be won. I think with the right developments we can pull people from all throughout the 'burbs downtown on the weekends, on the holidays, on the casual afternoons, and not just during work hours.

This isn't zero or one, black or white. Try to think analog, people... greyscale. This is a dorky comparison, but there is no logical "OR", and there are more than two possible "states". This isn't a flip-flop circuit. Eh, I'll stop now.

Just because Crabtree is considered a focal point doesn't mean that every other place in the city (including downtown) is automatically a gaping hell hole. Also, the scale of this one structure in Crabtree is small compared to what is downtown and what will be going downtown.

This building is undoubtedly a very unique situation and one that is not likely to be repeated any time soon. Some of you are eager to pull up misplaced comparisons to the Koury tower or University tower... so how about now? How many other high-rise buildings exist in suburban Greensboro and Durham?

The fact that this was approved says a lot about Raleigh and you can bet that an even more impressive proposal will surface downtown sooner than you think, in addition to the plethora that already exists.

[MireLanski]

So, wherever a given developer feels that landmark structures of the sort proposed here are supposed to go, that is where they will indisputably go then, without any consideration given to what Raleigh's citizens, let alone the city council, feel? Balderdash-that's why a review process is in place.

Perhaps your family doesn't like to come downtown because foolish, unbridled development has been allowed to proceed far outside the city center, thereby diminishing downtown's prominence/focus, a tact that projects like this one only serve to reinforce. Furthermore, projects like this one can raise the bar even higher on what degree of high-rise development is allowed to occur in the suburbs.

At the end of the day what people really seem to love about this project is the pretty tall building. Heck, I think it's pretty, if in its constructed state it resembles the renderings. Take that away, and all you have is another expensive development built well outside the city center. I hope that, if it approves this thing, the city council levies massive development impact fees on this.

No. That is a misinterpretation. Typically anyone who envisions a structure surely envisioned where it should go and therefore the design and function follow that. The building was envisioned to belong at the old Sheraton site. Disputing where it was designed to go is different than disputing where it is proposed to go. And I am saying we can't dispute that it was designed to go there. This would hold true if I where against this project as well. But, I agree generally. This isn't Sim City in that you cannot just zone and build.

Thank goodness we do have a planning and review process indeed because some developers vision is a little bit more off track than others.

Have any of you guys seen the proposed monument or the proposed animated wall. Now that is cool. I saw it on 11 of course. There are three proposed. The tallest approx. 20 stories.

[mer-ceel]

A couple of other issues:

1. Is there a planned nearby TTA light rail stop to Crabtree Valley that would service the proposed tower?

2. Any way you cut it, Crabtree Creek will flood again and will impact new development on its floodplain. Developing on floodplains is simply a bad practice. Will this fact (flooding) be addressed in all facets of the project's design? I did see the architects did account for some flooding impact by orienting some of the building's floors, but if there is accompanying street-level development (which there should be, otherwise this is a floating tower that doesn't serve any use to pedestrians), will it be built in a manner that deals with flooding?

1. No TTA. Just a bus stop.

2. There have been 10 new flood gates added to the creek since the last flood. The building is elevated to 15 feet above grade to account for FEMA regulations. At the ground the developer has given up 70 parking spaces and created a higher pervious area and the plan calls for a green way on the side of the development with cafe and entertainment. The pedestrian experience continues on the 7th floor roof terrace gardens that will be open to public for music, food and entertainment.

[JunktionFET]

A silver lining worth mentioning is that as Crabtree Valley evolves into a more urban-flavored area, it may very well attract some kind of fixed guideway transit line... BRT is one option. There's also a Glenwood Ave LRT or Streetcar (as envisioned before by some of us here at UP), or perhaps a Northwest Raleigh spur of the TTA system--like along the big Utility ROW running alongside Creedmor Rd and down towards the Fairgrounds area (and south).

The challenge to a rail vehicle is of course geography and the fact that are no candidate rail ROWs nearby. The aforementioned Utility ROW could be adapted (graded) where needed I believe, though I will need to look at the topomaps once again to see how severe the situation is.

Hypothetically speaking, if it is going to be a rail vehicle, I can see some kind of light rail/streetcar system, perhaps occupying dedicated HOV lanes/tracks down the median, on the shoulders, and mixed with traffic as needed. This would tie downtown, five points, and Crabtree Valley together with a dedicated form of mass transit that is much more glamorous than a bus... and it would have right of way moreso than a bus--therefore promising a more consistent trip (however slight the advantage may be).

BRT would be an interesting touch too... It doesn't have the sex appeal of a modern Portland-esque streetcar, but it would still have advantages and exclusivity over simple bus service.

I assume CAT would run a BRT or LRT/Streetcar line, but I don't know if they'd be up to such a task. I don't hear much from them and it seems sometimes they have trouble just handling the buses alone.

[dmccall]

(can you define BRT? I assume LRT is light rail transit)

[urbanvb]

I think that is Bus Rapid Transit. There were (still may be at some point) trying to get BRT in VA Beach. A picture I saw of one looked like very modern somewhat like a Metro train and had an additional car hitched to it. The side doors opened something like the Metro's.

[sax184]

I encourage anyone who thinks BRT is a great idea for the Triangle to do more research. Most of the Bus RAPID Transit projects in the US are not that rapid, nor do they come close to the rail-like service touted in the brochures and cheery public meetings.

The best example of how easy it is to compromise BRT by saying "oh, the BRT will just run in regular traffic there" is Boston's Silver Line.

Boston Silver Line Page at Bad Transit

Check out the above group's commentary and photos documenting the problems with the Silver Line. I rode it for the first time this summer. In its grade-separated underground tunnels, the Silver Line plods along at 15 mph. Above and below, the steel-wheel subways hurtle in between stations at 45-60 mph.

The attraction of BRT is generally "ooo, we can do transit cheap!" when we should be saying "we should do transit right."

This page says it all very fast: THE SILVER LINE CUSTOMER INFO/TOASTEROVEN SHARED POWER SOURCE