Charlotte Center City Streetcar Network

[Midwoodian]

Does anyone know how likely the Smart Start grant is to be selected by the FTA?  Or, what percent of Smart Start grant applications are awarded?  I looked on the Smart Start federal website and it only shows $ awarded; not details regarding which projects were chosen from years passed.  I'm trying to figure out how likely it is the streetcar matching grant is selected by the Feds.

 

Thanks!

[kermit]

^ just guessing here but I would think that we have a perfect storm of events that improves our chances:

NCs swing state status
Current DOT secretary is a local guy
Current DOT positive slant towards livability projects like the streetcar
Rail access to the west side (line connects economically diverse populations -- at least for now)
Charlotte's somewhat puzzling rep as a smart growth center of the South
Charlotte's explosive population growth and reurbanization
Development success of blue line
Decent ridership numbers on the blue line
The existing streetcar starter project (the feds want to see their initial $25 million investment succeed)
I am sure there are others

Assuming the proposal is competently written and realistic I would be surprised if we did not get the federal grant.

This combination of events will be short-lived, which is why I am very disappointed that the city is not requesting more funds for transit now (I do understand the city's and MTC's financial and corporate (Norfolk Southern) constraints). I fear that our window to do what Denver has done with transit development (Fast Tracks) is closing, once it closes I suspect that Charlotte will be doomed to a future of one decent light rail line and a four mile streetcar. Our dream of rail transit radiating from the core in every direction will be dead.

Edited September 9, 2014 by kermit

[tozmervo]

Charlotte's somewhat puzzling rep as a smart growth center of the South

 

Have you been to other cities in the South? The bar is pretty low 

[Madison Parkitect]

Have you been to other cities in the South? The bar is pretty low 

Yeah, it's like "Are you doing it better than Atlanta and Jacksonville? Then you're doing it the best!"

[kermit]

^ yes but there are Southern cities with downtowns that make Charlotte's downtown look like a sterile office park. Greenville, SC; Columbia, Chattanooga and even Raleigh have much more livable downtown environments than Charlotte (IMO).

 

We have the blue line and a few well-run bus routes and a street diet on East blvd. but, beyond that, how has Charlotte really encouraged smart growth?

 

EDIT: I didn't mean to turn this into Charlotte bashing, I just wanted to say that there other Southern cities that offer useful models of contemporary urbanism -- just because we have light rail doesn't mean we are 'the most urban' in the region.

Edited September 9, 2014 by kermit

[Niner National]

^ yes but there are Southern cities with downtowns that make Charlotte's downtown look like a sterile office park. Greenville, SC; Columbia, Chattanooga and even Raleigh have much more livable downtown environments than Charlotte (IMO).

 

We have the blue line and a few well-run bus routes and a street diet on East blvd. but, beyond that, how has Charlotte really encouraged smart growth?

Columbia? I'll admit I've only been to Columbia once, but it seemed even more sterile than Uptown Charlotte.

 

Uptown is getting a lot better anyway. I think in 10 years, it will be even more different than it is now vs 10 years ago.

[ChessieCat]

^ yes but there are Southern cities with downtowns that make Charlotte's downtown look like a sterile office park. Greenville, SC; Columbia, Chattanooga and even Raleigh have much more livable downtown environments than Charlotte (IMO).

 

We have the blue line and a few well-run bus routes and a street diet on East blvd. but, beyond that, how has Charlotte really encouraged smart growth?

 

EDIT: I didn't mean to turn this into Charlotte bashing, I just wanted to say that there other Southern cities that offer useful models of contemporary urbanism -- just because we have light rail doesn't mean we are 'the most urban' in the region.

 

Raleigh?  Does constructing PNC Arena far from the city center represent smart growth?  Other than attending a convention, there is no reason to go to downtown Raleigh for anything.   However, I do give them credit for the plan to build a new Union Station that will serve as a hub for all modes of transportation in the region.

Edited September 9, 2014 by ChessieCat

[kermit]

Raleigh?  Does constructing PNC Arena far from the city center represent smart growth? 

 

Its doesn't. Raleigh is certainly far from perfect, but its downtown Raleigh is a much more pleasant place for pedestrians and bikers than Charlotte -- in my opinion.

[nonillogical]

Other than attending a convention, there is no reason to go to downtown Raleigh for anything.

Sorry but that's just not accurate. It is a very vibrant, dense downtown these days for all its small size. There are a lot of great bars and restaurants now, more urban shopping than we have here in Charlotte, and several annual music festivals that put anything we have to shame. Also, the reconfiguring of Hillsborough Street and the recent developments there are a fantastic example of smart growth. 

[ChessieCat]

Sorry but that's just not accurate. It is a very vibrant, dense downtown these days for all its small size. There are a lot of great bars and restaurants now, more urban shopping than we have here in Charlotte, and several annual music festivals that put anything we have to shame. Also, the reconfiguring of Hillsborough Street and the recent developments there are a fantastic example of smart growth. 

 

Have you seen the Potemkin Village-looking restaurants on Fayetville Street that house a Jimmy John's and a Shish Kabob place?  They look very temporary in nature, kinda like the '94 Final Four fake uptown that Charlotte constructed cause there was no night life to speak of back then on Tryon St.

 

https://maps.google.com/maps?q=Raleigh+Marriott+City+Center,+Fayetteville+Street,+Raleigh,+NC&hl=en&ll=35.774489,-78.639368&spn=0.001011,0.001525&sll=35.165599,-80.752602&sspn=0.023049,0.048795&oq=marriott+ra&hq=Raleigh+Marriott+City+Center,+Fayetteville+Street,+Raleigh,+NC&t=h&z=20

 

I will give cred for the amphitheatre, so I retract the comment about no reason to go downtown.  And I'll reiterate that Union Station will change everything once light rail gets built too.

Edited September 9, 2014 by ChessieCat

[Niner National]

Am I the only person that thinks the street car is going to have an extremely underwhelming reception in regards to ridership? Nobody lives along the line and there really isn't anything on Elizabeth right now that are going to draw people away.

 

I just can't see it having much in the way of ridership unless Grubb does something with all that land he is sitting on.

[southslider]

Until Grubb develops, thank goodness for CPCC students.

[kermit]

Sure , I worry about ridership. However, the started line will connect the state's largest business district to its 9th largest hospital. The state's largest college, a burgeoning restaurant district, its largest courthouse, and two professional sports teams are in between. If you are gonna build a 1.5 mile line anywhere, this is the place for it.

 

I think the line would carry HUGE numbers of people if it were operated at 5 minute frequencies. Unfortunately, the 15+ minute frequencies it will actually see will substantially reduce potential ridership.

Edited September 9, 2014 by kermit

[Matthew.Brendan]

I think the line would carry HUGE numbers of people if it were operated at 5 minute frequencies. Unfortunately, the 15+ minute frequencies it will actually see will substantially reduce potential ridership.

Bingo.

Edited September 10, 2014 by Matthew.Brendan

[Niner National]

Sure , I worry about ridership. However, the started line will connect the state's largest business district to its 9th largest hospital. The state's largest college, a burgeoning restaurant district, its largest courthouse, and two professional sports teams are in between. If you are gonna build a 1.5 mile line anywhere, this is the place for it.

 

I think the line would carry HUGE numbers of people if it were operated at 5 minute frequencies. Unfortunately, the 15+ minute frequencies it will actually see will substantially reduce potential ridership.

I don't think it really matters much personally. Right now, its only function will really be the take people from the hospital to uptown for lunch and vice versa.

 

Few people live near the line and there really aren't any destinations. 

 

I really wish we had seen more private investment along the line by now, but so far Grubb is looking like the Levine of Elizabeth.

[CLTProductions]

 

I really wish we had seen more private investment along the line by now, but so far Grubb is looking like the Levine of Elizabeth.

Indeed, and it is so unfortunate, because as I have stated numerous times, the development for that area is more exciting to me than anywhere else.

 

Imagine Elizabeth St from Charlottetowne Ave to Hawthorne....absolutely LINED with restaurants, awesome sinage, bars, theaters....and running through it all is the brand new streetcar. Imagine those empty lots filled with new buildings catering to retail. That would be absolutely unreal and push nightlife (and life in general) around uptown to the stratosphere.

 

The foundation is there, there are some really fantastic restaurants along Elizabeth, and with the Earl's Grocery and Visualite Theater, it has budding diversity. Development along this stretch here will be crucial and obviously the streetcar would benefit greatly. I would absolutely leave my comfy confines of uptown, hop on the streetcar and head down to Elizabeth. It's a shame that cocktail bar closed.

Edited September 10, 2014 by Jayvee

[kermit]

 

Few people live near the line and there really aren't any destinations. 

 

I don't really agree. Apartments are shooting up around midtown and  Cherry, each just 2-4 blocks or so from the streetcar and there are plenty of destinations downtown.

 

Memorial stadium (with two pro teams) and (hopefully) a revitalized restraraunt row on Elizabeth will draw people outwards.

Edited September 10, 2014 by kermit

[rickrodewd]

Few people live near the line and there really aren't any destinations. 

 

Not sure how many people would be in my situation, but I live out Monroe Rd and if the streetcar would open today, I would park somewhere nearby (probably at the Met), walk to the streetcar, and take that to Uptown.  I've parked many times at the Met and walked to Uptown, instead of paying for parking Uptown.  Maybe I am the only one.

[15895]

Not sure how many people would be in my situation, but I live out Monroe Rd and if the streetcar would open today, I would park somewhere nearby (probably at the Met), walk to the streetcar, and take that to Uptown. I've parked many times at the Met and walked to Uptown, instead of paying for parking Uptown. Maybe I am the only one.

I park at either Target or the Greenway and take the Goldrush uptown. If the Goldrush is not running, I walk.

[southslider]

^CATS Route 6 Kings Drive runs every 20 minutes between Metropolitan and Uptown.

[Niner National]

Not sure how many people would be in my situation, but I live out Monroe Rd and if the streetcar would open today, I would park somewhere nearby (probably at the Met), walk to the streetcar, and take that to Uptown.  I've parked many times at the Met and walked to Uptown, instead of paying for parking Uptown.  Maybe I am the only one.

Sounds like a good way to get towed if enough people start doing that for it to be noticeable / problematic.

 

 

I don't really agree. Apartments are shooting up around midtown and  Cherry, each just 2-4 blocks or so from the streetcar and there are plenty of destinations downtown.

 

Memorial stadium (with two pro teams) and (hopefully) a revitalized restraraunt row on Elizabeth will draw people outwards.

Why walk 2-4 blocks to the street car, when you could just walk for 5 more minutes and be at your destination?

 

 

I think long term street car will be a great thing and I'm not opposed to it being built, I just think the starter line is going to be a tremendous failure in the short term and compromise the future expansion of the line to a length that is actually useful.

Edited September 10, 2014 by Niner National

[15895]

Sounds like a good way to get towed if enough people start doing that for it to be noticeable / problematic.

Why walk 2-4 blocks to the street car, when you could just walk for 5 more minutes and be at your destination?

I think long term street car will be a great thing and I'm not opposed to it being built, I just think the starter line is going to be a tremendous failure in the short term and compromise the future expansion of the line to a length that is actually useful.

I think everyone agrees with you and why streetcar proponents want the line extended ASAP. Foxx even said the ridership won't be good .

If it weren't for Fallon and other opponents delaying the extension, the starter line and extension would've opener at nearly the same time.

So now, it's important that at starter line stations, at the blue line CTC station, on Lynx tickets, there needs to be pictures and information about the gold line.

It's inevitable Mike Washburn and others in the media demonize the starter line

[atlrvr]

I'm still against a longer line out to Eastland.  I personally wouldn't extend it past Morningside and JCSU.  I'd much rather see multiple shorter lines serving the portion of the city most likely to be very dense (roughly 3 mile radius).

[SouthEndCLT811]

I'm still against a longer line out to Eastland.  I personally wouldn't extend it past Morningside and JCSU.  I'd much rather see multiple shorter lines serving the portion of the city most likely to be very dense (roughly 3 mile radius).

 

I say stop at the corner of Central and Eastway at Phase III which is about another 2-2.5 mile extension from what will have already been built out to the east.  At least until something definitive is planned for the Eastland Mall site.

 

I'm only slightly biased because I went under contract for a house on Arnold Drive 2 days ago and my home would be super close to the streetcar stop at Central/Arnold.

Edited September 11, 2014 by SouthEndCLT811

[orulz]

Have you seen the Potemkin Village-looking restaurants on Fayetville Street that house a Jimmy John's and a Shish Kabob place?  They look very temporary in nature, kinda like the '94 Final Four fake uptown that Charlotte constructed cause there was no night life to speak of back then on Tryon St.

 

https://maps.google.com/maps?q=Raleigh+Marriott+City+Center,+Fayetteville+Street,+Raleigh,+NC&hl=en&ll=35.774489,-78.639368&spn=0.001011,0.001525&sll=35.165599,-80.752602&sspn=0.023049,0.048795&oq=marriott+ra&hq=Raleigh+Marriott+City+Center,+Fayetteville+Street,+Raleigh,+NC&t=h&z=20

 

I will give cred for the amphitheatre, so I retract the comment about no reason to go downtown.  And I'll reiterate that Union Station will change everything once light rail gets built too.

I don't much appreciate the Raleigh bashing, but the "Potemkin Village Restauants" just made me laugh. So true, they look goofy and temporary. But basically, they couldn't convince the office towers to dedicate more space to retail so the city just built these permament kiosks. Not a perfect solution. But it does contribute to activity.

 

The core of Charlotte (Tryon, College) feels more corporate to me than Raleigh (Fayetteville/Wilmington) but that's 100% due to the fact that the market for commercial office space in downtown Raleigh is tiny compared to Charlotte (just over 5 million sq ft in Raleigh compared to just under 20 million in Charlotte). Plus we have the ultimate chunk of sterile junk in the state government complex, something which has no equivalent in Charlotte. Ultimately it's hard to compare apples to apples because Charlotte is so much bigger and more commercially focused than Raleigh.