Baseball in Charlotte, which will happen?

[monsoon]

...... City life for me is about variety and simple pleasures. I rate cities based on how much free entertainment you can get. I was visting Madison, WI about two weeks ago and was reminded how small towns can feel like big cities and big cities like small towns. .....

Indeed, that was a post. One of the most enjoyable cities in North Carolina, which has streetlife that completly blows Charlotte out of the water, is Asheville NC. There are people on the street at all times of the day and despite the NCDOT running a loop highway right through the city, the downtown has managed to keep itself integrated with the surrounding neighborhoods. The only dead part of downtown Asheville is where, not surprising, they have built an arena for sporting events.

[cinco]

dubone, excellent points. i will counter with just a few things... first, i think lots of us are just skeptical about all these wonderful things being developed based solely on a deal in which the ace card is a triple A baseball field. IMO the "8" acre park will spur just as much development -in the long run - and will be of better quality and will be long term. almost all urban parks that i can think of are surrounded by top dollar real estate. developers will still be clamoring to get a piece of the pie.

i undersatnd the excitement of all the projects happening @ one time, but to me that is not nearly enough reason to back this plan. i personally think we would have already seen development plans in process around the 8 acre park, had it not been thrown in limbo by this land swap.

lastly, as i read and respect all the views posted on this topic... i have been persuaded as to how this ballpark will create a dead zone. i do not think that the bobcats arena has helped development... again, what has been built since the arena, i think would have shown up anyway b/c of it's proximity to center city. as far as nightlife and retail around the arena... it's not there. i don't begrudge the arena, i just don't want this city to keep repeating itself.

[gamecocksfan]

I was in Indianapolis last week and went by Victory Field, (the cities AAA affiliate) and was amazed at hoe beautiful the park was. Every seat gives you a view of downtown. It was in walking distance of the RCA dome and the NBA area that houses both the Pacers and minor league hockey team. The area did not seem to cause a dead zone and the fans made their way from the stadium to the restaurants and bars after the game. The person that I was in town meeting with said that the city loves that ballpark and that it host the states high school baseball championship, has great outdoor concerts and was rated as the best minor league ballpark in the country by Sports Illustrated. It also hosted the AAA All Star game a couple years ago.

I really don

[dubone]

I can understand being skeptical that those projects are contingent on the deal. In some ways I think you might be right, about a couple of the parcels, as they would face the old park location. However, I strongly believe that the Novare projects came about because of the new park location, and clearly Mass Mutual helping to spearhead the relocated park because it going to help move their 400 S Tryon project forward. To me, though, the key that the stadium is not considered a negative by developers is that the sites that front only the stadium are still moving forward. The only exception is the site next to Presto Grill, was was originally a Mass Mutual project. I think they have slowed plans for that so that they can focus on 400 S Tryon and 2nd Ward.

To me, the key to this deal is 2nd Ward and the better park location. The new park location will help it be a successful park, as it will have closer proximity to more people during the daytime, so there will be better use of the park throughout the day, rather than just vagrants.

Even if the baseball wasn't involved, I'd still be for relocating the park, and doing a land deal to get 2nd Ward redeveloped.

But I do happen to see baseball as a bonus. Not necessarily for drawing development, but for drawing people, and keeping uptown workers uptown for events. The arena might not have spurred development (other than Epicentre/210 Trade, which clearly would not have happened without the arena), but it has certainly spurred hundreds of thousands, if not millions of visitors to uptown already.

But also, it is a national trend that minor league baseballparks are considered a nice urban amenity driving visitorship. Much more so than massive NFL stadiums, or even NBA arenas.

Here is a recent article extolling the virtues of minor league ballparks.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/13919084/

So there is so much going for this landswap without baseball being involved. But to have baseball, in my view, is a bonus on top of the rest. I realize many don't agree, but I just don't buy the "Dead Zone" argument. For one thing, with a park, and residences and office towers all nearby, so what if a couple blocks are only used during certain seasons. That is the benefit of finally having a diversity of uses in 3rd Ward, which doesn't exist right now. Right now it is a dead zone, as the area is only the NFL Stadium, and surface parking lots. It is clear that the NFL stadium did not spur development (although that can be debated a bit). But it doesn't matter whether theoretically the baseballpark would spur development, as the development projects are now lined up. It is no longer a hypothetical.

Also, don't forget that a poorly executed park can also be a dead zone. Marshall Park is awful. Even when I'm walking through 2nd Ward, I have no interest in entering Marshall Park. The 2nd Ward plan puts in a mix of uses, and a better oriented park in the middle.

Even if 2 blocks of a seasonal-use building is considered a dead zone, then what about the literal dead zones like the cemetary? Should they be banned from downtown? What about a Vehicle Maintenance Facility for the commuter rail, will that spur a lot of urban development?

As long as half the square area in downtown is filled with surface parking, I believe we have room to spare for whatever occassional use building we feel like building. I don't care, build a circus tent in 3rd Ward for the annual circus. That is a heck of a lot more urban than gravel parking lots.

[reverbandwhiskey]

I am all for building a mnor league park uptown now, then tearing it down eventually to make way for a major league stadium where those dumpy apartments are off of Remount rd....

[atlrvr]

Yeah...that's pretty much my attitude....I don't think that a minor league stadium should be downtown, but I think its acceptable for the short term to stimulate some development and give us some "intown" baseball until the city is ready for MLB....then, I hope the stadium goes outside the loop, but still somewhere relatively close in (inside Charlotte Route 4)

[monsoon]

The baseball stadium should be placed out on Freedom Drive. Its very easy to get to, there are a number of dead strip malls out there where this could actually help with a revival of that area, and there is plenty of room for an expansion of MLB ever came to the area. Freedom is an area that will never be a place for pedestrians so a ballpark there would be perfect.

The city really should consider encouraging more of this type of thing onto corridors like Freedom. Unfortunately I know it won't happen however as there is a definate bias in this city towards making major investments in just a few neighborhoods. Places like Freedom are left to die of neglect.

[reverbandwhiskey]

The baseball stadium should be placed out on Freedom Drive. Its very easy to get to, there are a number of dead strip malls out there where this could actually help with a revival of that area, and there is plenty of room for an expansion of MLB ever came to the area. Freedom is an area that will never be a place for pedestrians so a ballpark there would be perfect.

The city really should consider encouraging more of this type of thing onto corridors like Freedom. Unfortunately I know it won't happen however as there is a definate bias in this city towards making major investments in just a few neighborhoods. Places like Freedom are left to die of neglect.

Because nobody would want to go there to see a game.

[ChiefJoJo]

To me, if you build a AAA park, it's would be a HUGE mistake to not make it expandable for future MLB expansion. Make it ~15k seats or so, with some expandability to 35 or 40k with suites and all the bells and whistles. Charlotte could potentially have an MLB team within 10-15 years IMO.

[monsoon]

Because nobody would want to go there to see a game.

Why do you say that?

[schmopperX]

Why do you say that?

I would agree. People wouldn't be any more likely to go out along Freedom Dr. for a few reasons.

It's not an attracitve place would be the highest on the list. It would be like placeing the ball park in a dump.

[Idaho]

I can understand being skeptical that those projects are contingent on the deal. In some ways I think you might be right, about a couple of the parcels, as they would face the old park location. However, I strongly believe that the Novare projects came about because of the new park location, and clearly Mass Mutual helping to spearhead the relocated park because it going to help move their 400 S Tryon project forward. To me, though, the key that the stadium is not considered a negative by developers is that the sites that front only the stadium are still moving forward. The only exception is the site next to Presto Grill, was was originally a Mass Mutual project. I think they have slowed plans for that so that they can focus on 400 S Tryon and 2nd Ward.

To me, the key to this deal is 2nd Ward and the better park location. The new park location will help it be a successful park, as it will have closer proximity to more people during the daytime, so there will be better use of the park throughout the day, rather than just vagrants.

Even if the baseball wasn't involved, I'd still be for relocating the park, and doing a land deal to get 2nd Ward redeveloped.

But I do happen to see baseball as a bonus. Not necessarily for drawing development, but for drawing people, and keeping uptown workers uptown for events. The arena might not have spurred development (other than Epicentre/210 Trade, which clearly would not have happened without the arena), but it has certainly spurred hundreds of thousands, if not millions of visitors to uptown already.

But also, it is a national trend that minor league baseballparks are considered a nice urban amenity driving visitorship. Much more so than massive NFL stadiums, or even NBA arenas.

Here is a recent article extolling the virtues of minor league ballparks.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/13919084/

So there is so much going for this landswap without baseball being involved. But to have baseball, in my view, is a bonus on top of the rest. I realize many don't agree, but I just don't buy the "Dead Zone" argument. For one thing, with a park, and residences and office towers all nearby, so what if a couple blocks are only used during certain seasons. That is the benefit of finally having a diversity of uses in 3rd Ward, which doesn't exist right now. Right now it is a dead zone, as the area is only the NFL Stadium, and surface parking lots. It is clear that the NFL stadium did not spur development (although that can be debated a bit). But it doesn't matter whether theoretically the baseballpark would spur development, as the development projects are now lined up. It is no longer a hypothetical.

Also, don't forget that a poorly executed park can also be a dead zone. Marshall Park is awful. Even when I'm walking through 2nd Ward, I have no interest in entering Marshall Park. The 2nd Ward plan puts in a mix of uses, and a better oriented park in the middle.

Even if 2 blocks of a seasonal-use building is considered a dead zone, then what about the literal dead zones like the cemetary? Should they be banned from downtown? What about a Vehicle Maintenance Facility for the commuter rail, will that spur a lot of urban development?

As long as half the square area in downtown is filled with surface parking, I believe we have room to spare for whatever occassional use building we feel like building. I don't care, build a circus tent in 3rd Ward for the annual circus. That is a heck of a lot more urban than gravel parking lots.

As I walk past mega acres of sweltering asphalt parking lots in the third ward during my daily lunchtime neighborhood walks, any intelligent development would be an improvement and there is lots of capacity here. There can't be any deader zone than old asphalt, weeds, and assorted beer cans and bottles. So whether a ballpark is good for 10 or 15 years and is used for five or six months a year, this is still a distinct improvement over what is here now. So I am 100% in favor of a ballpark and city park on adjacent third ward sites.

[dubone]

Just for a visual on what I have been saying, as well as others, uptown is still completely saturated with deadzone-inducing surface parking lots. They are everywhere. I am firmly convinced that ANY human use besides automobile storage will be a vast improvement in urban development than the current setup. I am also convinced that without this unique deal mobilizing a number of private and public entities into selling and/or developing that land, that most of the land would continue to sit fallow indefinitely, just as it has for the last few decades.

There is plenty of room for a baseball park, multiple urban event parks, urban pocket parks, residential buildings, etc.

And here in blue are the active projects that would take up surface parking lots within the next couple years. As you can see, a sizeable percentage is covered by the projects associated to the land deal that includes baseball.

[A2]

D, I am going to concede to those pics you have been so kind to list, and agree that I am in favor of getting rid of any and all surface lots in Center City. It does not mean that I am in TOTAL agreement of the Ballpark, but if it will wipe out some lots, then bring it on. The only thing that burns me up more than less than adequate street lighting, is freggin parking lots!

A2

[krazeeboi]

Much has been said about the potential dead zones that arenas and ballparks can create once built. Well, here's a success story out of Columbus, OH about the exact opposite happening. Its Arena District has attracted much investment and pedestrian activity is pretty common.

Some excerpts:

[Charlotte_native]

Thanks for that insight. With so many varied opinions for these, and so little time to see the actual impact of the Bobcats arena, it is good to see where this has produced something positive.

[dubone]

The CBJ is reporting that the city leaders are asking to reduce the amount of infrastructure they must spend. I think that is fair, as the city was probably spending the most in this deal. The idea is to negotiated with Mass Mutual to get them to build some of the infrastructure around their development in 2nd Ward.

However, the city itself had signed up for much of that infrastructure anyway, as the new grid and conversions of roads to be bidirectional were part of the city's own plan to improve transportation downtown.

[uptownliving]

Just got back from the Uptown Baseball meeting. For the most part it was a drink the koolaide type meeting and they want people to write letters and e-mails to the various elected officals to show support for the land swap and baseball stadium in 3rd Ward. They plan to hold a rally in October, and the people there had a lot of good ideas of what to do at that rally to generate support.

Before the talks started they had a really cool 3D animation of downtown Charlotte that spun around and showed a current day aerial view and then phased in all the planed development. Then it swooped down to street level and travlled along each street just like a car or pedestrian would. It really was very impressive.

[monsoon]

One of the TV stations at lunch billed this as a meeting to develop a new plan for marketing the baseball stadium. Apparently, according to the TV station, there isn't enough support for it right now to pass.

[eastsider]

Just got back from the Uptown Baseball meeting. For the most part it was a drink the koolaide type meeting and they want people to write letters and e-mails to the various elected officals to show support for the land swap and baseball stadium in 3rd Ward. They plan to hold a rally in October, and the people there had a lot of good ideas of what to do at that rally to generate support.

They have also launched a new website - http://www.bringbackbaseball.com/

[turbocraig]

I'm not sure if anyone has run across this baseball/Second Ward revitilization/land swap survey from the Charlotte Chamber, but if not, here's the link:

http://www.charlottecentercity.org/nav.cfm...p;action=detail

(Survey link is about 1/3 down on the page.)

[Neo]

This morning I was flipping through the October issue of Charlotte Magazine and on page 33 they have a rendering of the baseball stadium with the skyline in the background. I scanned it in so all could see but of course it is better in the magazine:

[browngeo]

Very interesting picture...I like the skyline...

[moving uptown]

if we ever made it to the bigs, compare that skyline view with any other stadium in the country - ours more than holds its own - makes me proud

[AuLukey]

That is an impressive view. It is too bad that this isn't major league. That view would definately get a lot of camera time in the majors every time we made a TV appearance.