Baseball in Charlotte, which will happen?

[AuLukey]

I agree with everyone's arguement on the location, they really should reconsider letting the Knights into the land swap deal, if it's possible at this point. South End would definately make a better home for them.

My only arguement I had before (which I eventually pulled myself into thinking about the general area rather than the exact location,) was that it is viable that we could support both league teams.

No matter where the stadium gets built, it will generate growth around it, no arguing that. Simple matter of fact though, I doubt voters will have much say where the stadium is built rather than just if.

[Arlyn15]

I know that the stadium is the controversial element of this, but to me a large draw of people/visitors is good, regardless of whether it is seassonal or not. Societal efficiency is gained by locating it uptown, as parking resources would be underutilized at this time. Not to mention the tens of billions of dollars in transportation infrastructure to get people from the metro region in and out of downtown.

Yeah, Durham is bringing in money hands over fist with the Bulls!? Minor league baseball is a ridiculous idea for Charlotte. Does anyone think that we should have built a basketball arena downtown years ago (pre-Hornets) to have our very own CBA team? Nothing says tier two city like "minor league" baseball. While we are talking about downtown development, does anyone really think that the Nascar HOF was a good idea?

[RaleighHeelsfan]

Yeah, Durham is bringing in money hands over fist with the Bulls!? Minor league baseball is a ridiculous idea for Charlotte. Does anyone think that we should have built a basketball arena downtown years ago (pre-Hornets) to have our very own CBA team? Nothing says tier two city like "minor league" baseball. While we are talking about downtown development, does anyone really think that the Nascar HOF was a good idea?

Don't really want to get off topic but...yeah, the Nascar HOF is a great idea. The sport is growing rapidly...charlotte loves Nascar, and Charlotte is growing big time. The HOF will be yet another thing to do when you go uptown. That can never hurt!

[monsoon]

Simple matter of fact though, I doubt voters will have much say where the stadium is built rather than just if.

What is your rationale for saying that? It's a simple fact that in almost every case, arenas and stadiums "hurt" development in the areas where they are located, not help. It's been proven in city after city, especially in cities like Charlotte that desperately want to be "world class" and thinks selling out to sports teams are the way to do this.

BofA stadium is a certainly a case of this as the same promises were made about it when the arguments we being made for it to be downtown yet that has to be the deadest part of downtown Charlotte. Likewise the Bobcats arena has created a big dead space in the most desirable part of downtown. Imagine if a great public park had been located there instead.

The world's great and desirable cities are built around public spaces, not venues for professional sports.

[AuLukey]

I agree, the NHOF is a great idea, nothing says tourism like hall of fames.

What is your rationale for saying that?

ahem, the rationale is that voters won't get to decide the location of the stadium, they will just get the option of saying "yes we want it" "no we don't." Not "Yes, but not where you are planning it." I doubt that will be on the ballot.

Likewise the Bobcats arena has created a big dead space in the most desirable part of downtown. Imagine if a great public park had been located there instead.

I have to 100% disagree with you. How many highrise condos were announced before the arena was approved? UP wouldn't be quite as exciting without massive developments to talk about. Dead spot? Let's see... across the LRT line will be the Ritz Carlton, and caddy-corner to the arena is TTT/Epicentre. Hardly causing a dead spot. And those are already under construction. Then we go to the same block as the arena, remember the pencil tower being built adjacent to the arena? What price did the land the YWCA daycare is on just sell for? I severly doubt it would've sold for as much pre-arena as it was only next to the CATS station. It should have some reasonably well planned out use such as a spec, condo, hotel, or apartment tower.

while I still don't like the idea of where the ballpark is going, I do have to notice that part of the land swap includes development of another condo alongside the stadium. Charlotte is not other cities.

No doubt a park also increases property value and generates a feeling of community to residents within a two or three mile (or more, depending) radius of it.

[monsoon]

There is no reason to believe those announcements would not have happened had a park been put there instead of the arena. They are going up because of the economy here, not because a NBA team is throwing balls around downtown.

[eastsider]

BofA stadium is a certainly a case of this as the same promises were made about it when the arguments we being made for it to be downtown yet that has to be the deadest part of downtown Charlotte. Likewise the Bobcats arena has created a big dead space in the most desirable part of downtown. Imagine if a great public park had been located there instead.

The world's great and desirable cities are built around public spaces, not venues for professional sports.

The thing is, these stadiums have only started to show up in downtown in the last decade. Where was the demand for a "great park" in the hundred years precedeing this?

[hueion39]

If the county is basically giving the land to the Knights, I think we should DEMAND that it is designed to allow for MLB expansion.

(and street level retail)

[Mobuchu]

If the county is basically giving the land to the Knights, I think we should DEMAND that it is designed to allow for MLB expansion.

(and street level retail)

That would be nice, but the parcel is too small. They already determined that a MLB stadium would not work there.

[dubone]

The South End location for the Knights will not work. a) The only land large enough for it is no longer available, as The Boulevard Co. plans a large mixed-use development on it, and either owns it, or owns the option to it. b) Market studies have shown that a South End location would not spur enough visitors walking from the uptown employment hubs, so they could not afford to build it privately.

At this point, they have reviewed all the potential locations, and the only viable location to be able to have the stadium privately built is the 3rd Ward location.

By the way, are you guys saying that "stadiums are bad for urban development" so "put it in South End"? There is at least already a stadium in 3rd Ward, so there couldn't be any more "damage" done by putting the Knights in there.

Also, these sites are brownfield ex-industrial sites, a block away from freight tracks. The land is currently dominated by vagrants and parked cars. There is no damage to be done. The area is as bad as it gets in the way of urban development. And there are dozens upon dozens of acres of land just like it remaining uptown, where the better development can now turn to be built.

How can the marginal benefit to the city of those extra 2.5 to 3 acres of park be so much more than the marginal benefit of having a minor league ballpark?

Also, why is any of this being considered remotely a part of the city's pursuit of being world class. an 8 acre park will do zero for being a world class city, especially when park designers are saying the distance from where the people are, and the industrial warehouse in the dead center of it will greatly reduce its potential. Downtown minor league ballparks are the talk of the town where they are built, but it still has no bearing on being world class.

However, if the park is not moved, and the ballpark is not built, and Marshall park doesn't get put to private hands, then we have the following: an 8 acre park that is surrounded by parking decks and parking lots, a 5 acre site that is laying fallow until the office market picks up, 2 blocks that Novare owns that no longer have a major park across the street-- likely resulting in a lower density development--, a park in 2nd ward that is so bad that the park department refused to take it, no population base in 2nd Ward, and a school system office building that is falling apart. That does not sound world class to me. But as long as baseball is not being played on one of those lots, I suppose it will just magically spring up into a mini-Manhattan of amazing urban development? I guess I just don't believe in magic enough to expect that.

[Charlotteman]

I don't mean to stray too far from baseball, but I'm curious what problems Marshall Park has experienced that should be avoided by the new 3rd Ward park.

[leon in charlotte]

What is your rationale for saying that? It's a simple fact that in almost every case, arenas and stadiums "hurt" development in the areas where they are located, not help. It's been proven in city after city, especially in cities like Charlotte that desperately want to be "world class" and thinks selling out to sports teams are the way to do this.

BofA stadium is a certainly a case of this as the same promises were made about it when the arguments we being made for it to be downtown yet that has to be the deadest part of downtown Charlotte. Likewise the Bobcats arena has created a big dead space in the most desirable part of downtown. Imagine if a great public park had been located there instead.

The world's great and desirable cities are built around public spaces, not venues for professional sports.

I certainly agree that the areas adjacent to BofA Stadium are dead but the land next to the Bobcats Arena is anything but dead. Bank of America is building the 15-story Ritz-Carlton Charlotte close to the arena while the 53-story Epicentre is being contructed next to it, diagonally across from the arena on College and Trade Streets. Let's not forget the latest announcement from Boulevard Centro who plans a 25-story residential tower not far from the their completed 17-story Courtside Condos.

I think BofA Stadium is in a less disirable location than the arena because it sits next to train tracks and some residential developers see that as a barrier. Another opinion I have is that as space for projects become scarce, we will begin to see these buildings under construction but not now when there are more attractive places to build.

[queensguy06]

Dubone hit the nail on the head. I agree 110% with everything said in his statement. Really, a minor league team is willing to privately fund a brand new ballfield in downtown Charlotte and people are still against it? For what reasons?

So you lose a couple acres off of an already tiny downtown park. 5 or 10 years from now is anyone really going to say "man, this park would have been so much better if it were 8 acres instead of 5." I highly doubt it.

And if you think this will hurt the chances of MLB coming to Charlotte, I highly doubt that as well. Ask any true baseball fan and they will tell you minor league and major league are two totally different sports. Minor league is just that, it draws local crowds from maybe a 25 mile radius at the absolute most; MLB on the other hand draws crowds from as far as 100 miles out, if not more. I know I have gone to Atlanta 3 times in the past 5 years just to see the Braves play - and I am a Cubs fan!

If anything, when MLB comes to town in 10 or 15 years it will probably push minor league baseball out, and then you can convert that dilapidated ball field into the 3 acres so desperately needed to make the 8 acre park.

[monsoon]

I certainly agree that the areas adjacent to BofA Stadium are dead but the land next to the Bobcats Arena is anything but dead.

I was referring to the space itself. It is a huge area of dead space and there are never any people there except when there is an event. $300M was a lot to throw away on this. Sports venues do this.

[dubone]

I've written it before, but I think it bears repeating, that all buildings have uses that cover only a portion of the day, or portion of the week, or even seasonal. Churches have massive parking lots that are only used 2-4 hours a week. Even residential buildings are not used from, say, 7:30a to 5:30p in most cases. Offices tend to not be used as much after 6 or 7p, and tend to empty of a sizeable percentage of their occupants around 5p. Restaurants have a use between 11a and 1p, and then from 5 or 6p to maybe 9p unless they also act as a bar, in which case they are used until 2a.

Special use buildings for mass events, like convention centers, arenas, stadiums, etc., are used during entertainment times, such as the evenings and weekends.

It doesn't mean that society shouldn't dedicate land to those uses. It just means that they should be reduced to only, say, half a dozen per city. But society gains from efficiencies when parking and transportation facilities are shared with other uses that do not coincide in time of day or year. That is what makes the 3rd Ward location perfect for minor league ball. It does not coincide with the office park uses, nor the NFL stadium uses, so the ample parking facilities can be used to even greater efficiency.

Being downtown, however, allows the stadium to find interesting additional uses, such as concerts and other events that would otherwise unthought-of while the stadium is far from anyone in parkland in Fort Mill.

[AuLukey]

I was referring to the space itself. It is a huge area of dead space and there are never any people there except when there is an event. $300M was a lot to throw away on this. Sports venues do this.

I have to agree with dubone, if you have an entertainment venue, of course that's the outcome. It won't be used 24/7. How about churches? Waste of space? Most (but not all) operate maybe once daily and most of the day only on sundays.

$300m is an investment, just like any other project. It's primary goal was to host the Bobcats, yes; but it was also seen as a development catalyst.

As for whether the announcements would or wouldn't have happened if a park had been put there, I'm curious to see when the land was purchased, before, after, or if had been sat on until the right opportunity presented itself. We can't go back in time and stop the arena from happening and watch the outcome. Make due with what's there and stop complaining about the man getting you down.

[Charlotte_native]

The area around the stadium is dead now (and I know the original writer meant the actual land itself, but the land around it is relatively dead also) but there are quite a few projects coming that are going to change that. Some of which were spurred by the stadium being there. If you would like to see dead you should have seen that part of Morehead before the stadium.

Currently there are the various buildings being build as part of the 'warehouse district' -- I'm not sure how many are in the works, but there are Warehouse 3, 1st Row, Skybox, and I think there are one or two more. Beazer bought 20 or so acres across the street and will eventually build, Novare is buying the Power Building and will add residential there, Skybridge is being built by Neighboring Concepts 2 blocks down Morehead, so this area is far from being forgotten.

Add to that the quick rise in values for the 3rd Ward, Clarkson Place townhomes that were built in the 80's and I think the stadium had a great positive influence (along with Gateway). These townhomes were in the mid-100's just a 2 or 3 years ago and now sell in the low 300's. Read their listings and you'll almost always find "easy walk to the stadium" or "across from the Panthers practice field...".

[monsoon]

The Editor of the Charlotte Observer either reads UrbanPlanet , or more likely does not buy the hype of the CCCP either about this ballpark. The main editorial in the paper questions the sense of locating yet another statium in downtown, and advises the city and county ought to move slowly.

I was especially interested in this comment:

"The problems? For starters, the baseball park's location would expand a dead zone uptown created by the infrequently used Bank of America Stadium and adjacent parking garage. That's a significant hurdle. So is another multimillion-dollar investment of city money to pay for stadium infrastructure. ......" and

"Stadium sites outside the Interstate 277 loop ought to be considered. A stadium next to a stadium is not good urban development"

It's great they realize that stadiums cause Dead Zones, and that some of the editors have graduated from the UrbanPlanet.org course of urban planning 101. Hopefully the county politicians will listen to this advice great advice as I don't put out much hope the city will make a sound decision in this matter.

[MZT]

The buildings directly across from the Bobcats Arena have been vacant for a while, and I have not seen any street level retail open in the arena itself. So right now, I'm more in agreement with the posters earlier-- who have said that an Arena brings activity mainly on "game night".

[Durhamite]

^^^Yea, they should've left as a parking lot meaning NO activity and NO game night. A leading representative from Blvd Centro stated, if not for the arena on that location, we could've built 10 20-40 story high rises. Thus, recommending to local condo developers to remove any relevance to the arena location from their advertisements. Instead of arena, they could've referred to it as Parking LOT 2.

Again, that land swap deal is DEVELOPMENT HOCUS-POCUS! Please keep the parking lots around the existing 3rd Ward park location for another 10-20 years. Cities that have major and minor league ball parks downtown can verify what a BUST it's been (Camden Yards in Baltimore, especially here in DURHAM). Chicago Tribune reports that they're relocating WRIGLEY field to Schamburg near Woodfield Mall after comprehensive studies in urban development pitfalls in URBAN 101 at Northwestern University. Columbia Univ in NY reviewed Northwestern's report and recommended that Madison Square Garden be relocated to Newark, NJ.

These Urban Development studies were galvanized by "wanna be" world class cities. Citing Charlotte, NC as the pimary advocate and a "local urban development discussion board" as the vehicle for stimulating "CORRECT" urban development. A Charlotte city official was overheard stating, "What the hell do Chicago and New York know about urban development?".

[kickazzz2000]

I hate going to games at Camden Yards. First off, theres no place to park, and its impossible to even drive to the few lots they have cause theres so many darned people coming across the street from all those neighboorhoods and the train stop.

[atlrvr]

I hate going to games at Camden Yards. First off, theres no place to park, and its impossible to even drive to the few lots they have cause theres so many darned people coming across the street from all those neighboorhoods and the train stop.

Was that a tongue-in-cheek comment about how a ballpark can be successful generators of pedestrian traffic and public transit ridership?

[discoverdilworth]

Interesting to see so many opinions for another large sports venue in our precious urban loop. I personally think that part of the reason for this support is the small town complex that many Charlotteans still suffer from. To many, it seems, that pro sports and a hall of fame are short cuts to big city status. It is hard for me to understand, but from a relative newcomer's point of view, it is nothing short of a local obsession. As several people alluded to, we have a deficit in urban parks, theaters, museums, street life but people continue to be obsessed with building the next skyscraper and the next ball park. City life for me is about variety and simple pleasures. I rate cities based on how much free entertainment you can get. I was visting Madison, WI about two weeks ago and was reminded how small towns can feel like big cities and big cities like small towns. There is no NHOF, no pro basketball, but there was about 100,000 people (about half the city's population) enjoying the farmer's market, street performers, one mile long of side-street sales, and mostly watching people from all walks and colors of life converge on the city center. I took so many pictures with the intention of posting, but ultimately gave up trying to convey the festive atmosphere. Placing the ballpark in uptown will be a step in the wrong direction and admission that the city center will never amount to anything more than a collection of buildings! I think a ball park belongs outside the loop, south end or some similar location.

[dubone]

To be consistent with my obsession with moving the city in the wrong direction, here is a CCP powerpoint presentation that has siteplans of the latest for this deal.

http://www.charlottecentercity.org/ppts/Gr...files/frame.htm

I just can't see how anyone could say this is bad for urban development. Apparently there are 6 projects that are contingent on this deal happening, many of which are currently surface parking lots that have never once been mentioned for possible projects on UP.

The rumored Furman project at 2nd and Graham is either replaced or still happening with a baseball stadium next door, despite being a crappy site, with freight tracks, a planned Greyhound station, and a power substation alongside it. We all know that the two Novare sites and 300 S Tryon have sprung to life since plans called for a park fronting the parcels. 300 Tryon had been stalled for years, but would now be built now as a residential/office mixed use project now that the park is next to it. Also, sites that have never been mentioned for active projects are the parcel on the Trademark block, and the block just south of that.

If all of these projects move forward, 3rd Ward would have only a small parking lot at 4th and Church and a medium sized parking lot next to Presto Grill. Otherwise, the whole area will be contiguous development! That was unheard-of and completely unexpected up until this point. The park/ballpark plan sprung most of it to life. (A2, can you believe that!?!) Remember that the larger park was about ready to begin construction last year, yet most of those other projects came to life after the plan to site the park across the street from them.

So even if it is "bad urban development" to have a minor league ballpark in the downtown grid, having the rest of the surface parking lots in that quadrant of uptown be converted to residential/office/mixed use with ground level retail is certainly the very definition of urban development. So if the stadium is part of the deal to get that done, then it is a necessary means to a great end. 3rd Ward will finally be something other than a hideous cluster of surface parking lots on brownfield ex-industrial sites.

Now consider 2nd Ward. There will be a park that will be surrounded by dense residential or office buildings with retail on the ground floor. The park is only a slight variation of the original 2nd Ward Plan. The mature trees along 3rd in Marshall Park will be saved as part of a large setback in that area that acts like a greenway. Then, the facade designs of the large apartment building and condominiums, are broken up into varying architectural styles, to avoid the appearance monolithic structures. This is also consistent with the 2nd Ward Master Plan, and means that even if stucco is used, it won't be dominant. The park is now an urban pocket park, surrounded by residences and street retail, leading to more and diverse people using the parking throughout the day.

This project also sets the stage for other developers, like Furman, to start developing the land south of 2nd Street in 2nd Ward, where the old Metro School is. The southern part of the park and the new development nearby will increase the value of that land, leading to higher proceeds for CMS, and also denser development. This also creates a much more stable environment for the Chetrit group to add their planned residential components to the land around the old Adam's Mark.

The areas of uptown most dominated by surface parking lots would be replaced with medium density developments, surrounding an urban park. In some cases, towers would be included, in other cases, the buildings would be 4-6 stories tall, creating an enticing streetscape with street retail all around. Once this deal is done, and the projects underway, the only parts of uptown that will have surface parking as a dominant land use will be Levine's land in First Ward (which will start to be converted with TWELVE and UNCC), and the Beazer-owned land by Cedar and West Morehead.

If this is all bad urban development, then I don't know what is.

[Nostyle]

Was that a tongue-in-cheek comment about how a ballpark can be successful generators of pedestrian traffic and public transit ridership?

I was wondering the same thing...