Baseball in Charlotte, which will happen?

[whitehourseview]

While I agree with you, that Charlotte does not appear close to receiving a major league baseball team anytime soon, there have actually been two other teams added since the expansion you mentioned. It was not until 1998 that Tampa and Arizona got teams. So four in 28 years, still not a blistering pace.

right, I forgot about the diamondbacks and the devil rays.

[SmellyCat]

right, I forgot about the diamondbacks and the devil rays.

That expansion was a really terrible decision, totally watering down the talent base in baseball to this day. And then further compounding the mistake by kowtowing to the Arizona owner Jerry Colangelo to put Arizona in the National League, thus creating an imbalance of 16 teams in the AL and 14 in the NL, where you have one 6-team division in the NL and one 4-team division in the AL. Not surprising given the incompetence of MLB!!

[A2]

With BofA one of the largest banks in the world being a major sponor and official bank of the sport it is entirely plausable to assume Charlotte (The World HQ of the Bank) will attract an expansion team within 5-7 years.

http://charlotte.bizjournals.com/charlotte...ml?surround=lfn

Not to mention the fact that the region boasts a Top 5 status for Fortune 500 firms, which brings bigtime money for the MLB. Money is the reason that Baseball will move here first. The population is exploding so that will definatley take care of itself by the time we are granted a team.

CSA is @ 2.3M for 2006. If we were to be given a team with the next five to seven years we will be knocking on 2.8M+ CSA (almost 3M) people in the region who could support it.

Don't forget that places like Denver whose city population is LESS THAN CLT, and have around 2.5M in their metro are able to support all 4 major leauge teams. (and fwiw, they also boast a great following for all of their teams)

Chalk MLB up in CLT as good as done within one decade.

Whoever stated that CLT, one of the fastest growing metros in the US, won't be ready for another 20+ years must be looking at other stats than me

Quote from BizJournal:

"Charlotte-based BofA (NYSE:BAC) is one of the world's largest financial institutions, with $1.37 trillion in assets and 5,800 retail-banking offices. It is the official bank of Major League Baseball"

Swing batter, batter, batter, Swing !!!!

A2

[AuLukey]

A2 always has a way to make the brighter side of a debate seem even better. I completely forgot about Denver.

Going along with the CSA idea, I know plenty of people in Florida and Georgia that drive for hundreds of miles to see either Marlins or Braves games (sorry Tampa.) Teams not in the north normally pull attendence and regular tv viewers from much further out than the CSA. I think this would pull an audience from the Triad, Triangle, and Columbia as well if successful. Especially if given a Carolina name. So, given the rate at which these other three areas are growing, the overall population a team would serve could easily be upwards around 7 or 8 milllion (as a rough guess.)

[krazeeboi]

Don't forget that places like Denver whose city population is LESS THAN CLT, and have around 2.5M in their metro are able to support all 4 major leauge teams. (and fwiw, they also boast a great following for all of their teams)

Denver is a relatively isolated market though. The next closest major city to Denver is Salt Lake City, which is over 500 miles away. Thus, Denver can pull in fans within a greater radius than Charlotte, which has Atlanta and Washington fans to worry about if you go too far either north or south. Admittedly, at present, Salt Lake City only has a major league basketball team (Utah Jazz), but if/when Salt Lake City gets NFL, MLB, NHL, etc., it will have no effect whatsoever on the Denver market (aside from possibly viewership). These maps are somewhat indicative of what I'm talking about. I think Charlotte will definitely get there in time, but I don't think Denver is the best example to use in this regard.

[AuLukey]

Denver is a relatively isolated market though. The next closest major city to Denver is Salt Lake City, which is over 500 miles away. Thus, Denver can pull in fans within a greater radius than Charlotte, which has Atlanta and Washington fans to worry about if you go too far either north or south. Admittedly, at present, Salt Lake City only has a major league basketball team (Utah Jazz), but if/when Salt Lake City gets NFL, MLB, NHL, etc., it will have no effect whatsoever on the Denver market (aside from possibly viewership). These maps are somewhat indicative of what I'm talking about. I think Charlotte will definitely get there in time, but I don't think Denver is the best example to use in this regard.

Well the reason why Atlanta shows up so prominently in the commoncensus maps is that outside of Florida, it is the only city in the southeast with a team. The Panthers haven't been around all that long compared to the Redskins and Falcons and look how well they fare in the Carolinas. If that is any indication, then another pro team in MLB should share the same eventual success. If these highly inaccurate maps are any indication of "popularity" the much discredited Bobcats seem to be getting more votes than the Hawks.

While this site is still new and has too much room for error in that only .001% (37613 votes out of 2006 est. 298 million) of the country's population has filled it out and there is no limit to how many times you can reenter the same information, it does show regional borders pretty well. It sadly also portrays the Carolinas as the most divided area in the US as far as regional identity goes. Outside of the much larger states of New York, Cali, and Texas, NC looks to be the fourth most regionally diverse state on their site.

[Charlotteman]

If Charlotte doesn't woo an MLB team and build a stadium, Raleigh/Durham or Greensboro/Winston Salem will. Count on it.

If Charlotte doesn't take this GOLDEN OPPORTUNITY to snag a major league franchise, lots and lots of regrets will be coming forth. Count on that as well.

It's beyond me why on earth some people think Charlotte can't support MLB, NBA, and NFL---- all three.

[RaleighHeelsfan]

If Charlotte doesn't woo an MLB team and build a stadium, Raleigh/Durham or Greensboro/Winston Salem will. Count on it.

If Charlotte doesn't take this GOLDEN OPPORTUNITY to snag a major league franchise, lots and lots of regrets will be coming forth. Count on that as well.

It's beyond me why on earth some people think Charlotte can't support MLB, NBA, and NFL---- all three.

I have said the same thing in this thread several times now. If Charlotte builds a minor league stadium downtown they can kiss MLB good by! Count on it.

You people seem to forget about the Triangle and the Triad. I will tell you something that can't be supported...thats two mlb teams in the state of NC!

I hope Charlotte does build the minor league stadium downtown....because I will be waiting with open arms as Raleigh is rewarded a MLB franchise...and it's built downtown!!!!! Then Charlotte will have to wait more than 50 years!

I think that Raleigh will have the advantage over the triad because Greensboro has their own new stadium downtown.

[hueion39]

"So I say the Florida Marlins become the Charlotte Racers in 2010. Racers being the name to play on the NASCAR population of y

[Charlotteman]

Can you imagine the excitement of all the MLB baseball fans throughout N.C.? Probably a majority that currently support the Atlanta Braves would switch allegiance to Charlotte.

People all through the STATE would be watching Charlotte MLB on TV!!!

Minor league attracts zilch. When's the last time you ever heard of anyone getting excited about a minor league game---or did ya ever know anyone who watched a minor league game on TV?

[atlrvr]

Well then let the Triad or Triangle build them a stadium and be stuck with the debt when the team bails because it was a decade or two too early.

I think Charlotte's the right city in the long-run due to its central location of all Carolina metro's but if the Marlins or any other team wants to move to the Carolina's soon, then I'd prefer a different city to take the risk.

[AuLukey]

Well then let the Triad or Triangle build them a stadium and be stuck with the debt when the team bails because it was a decade or two too early.

I think Charlotte's the right city in the long-run due to its central location of all Carolina metro's but if the Marlins or any other team wants to move to the Carolina's soon, then I'd prefer a different city to take the risk.

You know what, while I avoid trying to criticize the Triangle/Triad I have to agree with your point. Not because I live in Charlotte, not that enjoy MLB games (which, in my opinion, are only interesting in person,) but because Charlotte is the only city that can easily feed off every of metro in the Carolinas outside of Wilmington and Jacksonville (which are not really population contributors in comparison anyway.) Charleston, Columbia, Triad, Triangle, Fayetteville, Asheville, & Hickory are all within a short distance in comparison to how far some people are willing to drive for MLB games in other states. I can also see people driving up from Augusta, Georgia when Atlanta plays Charlotte.

Also, I have to completely disagree with the minor league stadium killing MLB hopes. I have read this from several people that bring up valid points. But the simple fact is, minor league attracts a different genre of spectators. People go to minor league games for the social environment and the price. Going to a major league game will attract fans to games rather than people looking for something to do on a tuesday night. Look at the Knights now, how many people go to games? Why do they go? It's a place to take their kids that costs a fraction of taking them all to a major league game. How else could the Sting stay in Charlotte? Bobcats vs. Sting. Those are two MAJOR LEAGUE teams, in the same arena. Same comparison can be made with the Arena Football vs NFL. People go to the game in the major league to go to "the game." People go to the game in the minor league instead of going to the movies.

Thus, while supporting the major league team, the minor league team would still be able to survive because of the audience it attracts and its much lower payout.

[whitehourseview]

There is simply no way that an AAA baseball team coexists within a hundred miles of a major league franchise.

If Charlotte gets a MLB franchise, which is highly unlikely:

1. Who is willing to start a regional cable network devoted to broadcasting games, or to grow a preexisting one? A modern major league team really cannot exist without one. Bob Johnson's venture died a quick death.

2. What owner, or ownership group is available in the Charlotte region to pay what is likely to be a $150 million franchise entry fee, before the first shovel of dirt is turned, and before the first minor league teams are up and running?

3. Is the center city of Charlotte capable of hosting 35K+ fans a night, 82 times a year, from an infrastructure standpoint, on top of 41+ BobCat games, plus 10 Panther games?

4. If Charlotte desires to lure a prexisting franchise to the Queen City, will there be anyone who will build a major league capable stadium first and hope that a beleagured franchise moves into town, like Tropicana Field in Tampa, which was used as a bargaining chip for state-subsidised stadiums in Chicago and San Francisco before the Devil Rays were established?

5. Are there enough advertising dollars in Charlotte to support three major league franchises at the same time, on top of a minor league hockey franchise and a WNBA franchise? Are there enough corporate sponsors to buy a suite at a Charlotte MLB stadium, when they have already bought something similar at either BoA Stadium, BobCats Arena, or Lowe's Motor Speedway?

6. Is there a public demand for more bread and circuses, er, more sporting entertainment in Charlotte?

7. Are public officials ready to lead and fight for what will probably be a long and protracted struggle for infrastructure improvements, stadium construction/management, and other negotiations which could last for 10 years before a team could even throw its first pitch?

I'm not seeing many positive answers to these questions.

[krazeeboi]

I see #7 as a really big hurdle right now, especially after the new arena fiasco.

[AuLukey]

While you bring some very valid points to the table, I agree with Krazee in that #7 is the one that faces Charlotte specifically.

As far as infrastructure for 35,000 people per game, Bank of America Stadium hosts 73,298 at cap. I don't see issues there. It's not perfect, but I have never heard complaints with those games. I know, it's on sunday, baseball is any given day of the week. There in lies the problem and where I am stuck as to an easy solution. Dealing with traffic coming in and out around 4-6pm every day poses a little more of an issue. It would have to have relatively liquid flow to keep people from using traffic as an excuse not to go to games. As of now, the bobcats (if at full capacity) only bring 18,500 spectators into center city on weekdays.

However, when comparing cities. The triangle, triad, and Charlotte would face all of those same hurdles either way. Winston Salem Warthogs ( ) and the Durham Bulls are in those areas. Would those teams face exstinction as they are within 100 miles as you have suggested whitehourseview?

If Charlotte gets a MLB franchise, which is highly unlikely:

Charlotte is the most likely to be able to support an MLB team. I suppose you'd rather see Greenville host a team for the Carolinas then...

[eastsider]

Very good points whitehorseview, its something that it seems people want to overlook as far as trying to attract a major league team. I think Charlotte is a good 15-20 years away from being able to support a MLB team as far as fan support, having a large enough corporate advertising base, and being able to build the appropriate facilities. Point #1 is especially valid, look at the troubles that the Washington Nationals have had reguarding a broadcast deal.

Also, considering that the Marlins have broken off talks with all markets outside of south Florida, it doesn't look like they will be making a move.

[karmst]

I for one am totally against another major league team, which the general public will end up funding when a new stadium is the only reason a team would move here.

I would rather not pay any more taxes for yet another major team...how many teams does Charlotte want or need? With the Bobcats, Sting, and Panthers, I think Charlotte is doing rather well. Instead of building a new stadium, spend the money on the following instead:

Build and expand on the infrastructure in Charlotte to support pedestrian/transit initiatives.

Build parks for people who live downtown, not another stadium.

Invest in retail, coffee houses, restaraunts...give people something to do.

Personally, not everyone wants Charlotte cluttererd with pro teams. Give me somewhere to walk to and sit, movies to watch, coffee to drink. I'll take that anyday over another pro-team. What makes a city great is not the amount of pro-teams located there, but what things for people to do, and facilities available to the community.

So, stop focusing on pro teams and more on how Charlotte really wants to be seen by the rest of the country. I don't travel to other places for the teams, I travel for things to do. Charlotte currently has very little of the latter.

-k

[hueion39]

karmst, I think you underestimate the travel crowd that follows professional baseball. I followed my team to NYC, Pittsburgh, and Baltimore. The primary reason to go to those cities was major league baseball. The other activities I participated in while I was there was secondary. Charlotte is looking for ways to increase tourism to the area, and MLB is one way to do so.... not many people from Michagan are going to visit Charlotte for the Little Sugar Creek Greenway or Fourth Ward Park (or the Charlotte Knights)

[JerseyBoy]

I say if infrastructure (roads) is going to be a problem, then wait till all lines of the light rail/street car are built out to provide people ways to get out of Uptown without clogging I-277, I-77, Trade, and Tryon. Most likely some of these games will be held during rush hour afternoons and workers in Uptown aren't going to take kindly to a new stadium that has thousands of fans leaving it and disrupting their commute home. Last week I brought a few friends of mine from Portland, Maine and was showing them around Uptown and pointing to whats going here and whats going there. Their main complaint and criticism was that they said that Charlotte needed more parks. I mean sure we have squares where people socialize with each other but we don't have large expansive lawns to have picnics and relax on and no playground for the kids. The thing i'm getting at is if they want to bring baseball Uptown just don't bring it to Third Ward Park becasue that reduces the amount of greenspace to enjoy and makes it look like the job was half-a**ed and wasn't fully suported by the city. As much as I would like for Uptown to get baseball, I just don't want to sacrifice greenspace for a mammoth structure that maybe gets used half a year at most. And, then what do we do if the team milks our city dry of money and leaves to go find another victim? I say wait...........just give it time. If they want to be in Charlotte so much then let them pay 75% of their own stadium costs. I don't want Charlotte to be some big sports franchise's prostitute.

[karmst]

hueion39,

valid points about people from the USA not travelling to a city primarily to visit the parks and green areas. I would like to see Charlotte become a world class city, and I doubt many people from europe (me included) would travel to Charlotte for MLB. What kinds of events make a city attract more tourists is still open for debate, but surely a museum or 4 would attract more people than major sports teams. Maybe I have not live here long enough to really understand the pull of such things.

Having said all the above, I do think the NASCAR HOF will help greatly, but I also cannot wait for the Arts program and everything that brings to Charlotte to finish.

it just seems to me that money might be better well spent on other things more deserving, besides professional sports teams...that's all

Point taken though.

-k

[Charlotteman]

These are all valid points of consideration.

Some things I see "holes" in:

People keep saying "Charlotte can't support this or that..." MLB wouldn't be about Charlotte only. Baseball fans all over the entire STATE would be fans! And the games would be broadcast all throughout the state, as well as portions of S.C.

If the Triad gets a team, their games will be broadcast in Charlotte. Those broadcast dollars are huge. Seattle Mariners games are broadcast all over the state and the team has fans from hundreds of miles away.

"Too much traffic at 4-6PM already, without bringing in MLB fans on top of it." This might seem plausible on the surface. But I beg all doubters to look at Seattle's example.

I realize Charlotte's traffic woes are no picnic, but ya ought to try Seattle sometime. Over 30,000 people live in downtown Seattle and thousands and thousands work there. They seem to handle the 30,000 fans coming in just fine. Seattle's MLB stadium is smack dab in the middle of traffic that would knock your socks off too.

[krazeeboi]

People keep saying "Charlotte can't support this or that..." MLB wouldn't be about Charlotte only. Baseball fans all over the entire STATE would be fans! And the games would be broadcast all throughout the state, as well as portions of S.C.

But MLB relies more on the actual support of the residents in the metro area, as games are played quite frequently. Sure you'd get support from NC as a whole, but how often will someone from Wilmington or Rocky Mount drive to Charlotte to see a game? For that matter, how often would someone from Spartanburg, Greensboro, or Columbia come? Not enough to be counted on as "regular fans," I'd imagine.

[Charlotteman]

Whitehour, actually there are teams of mixed league closer than 100 miles from one another.

Tacoma's AAA team is only 35 miles from Seattle's MLB team

Also, Everett's single A team is about 25 miles from Seattle.

A couple points to be remembered as well---all those out of towners coming in to see the games would indeed be paying to park. That would create a nice little bump in city revenue, as well as nice profits for the owners of existing parking garages. And lots of folks from Charlotte and from other places would definitely stay Uptown to have dinner, a drink etc. Even more for Uptown revenues.

MLB players/coaches/staff buy homes in their team's city. These are big salaried people, who would most likely be buying condos......probably a nice little bump in Uptown condo development as well.

Don't forget that lots of folks from the Northeast--Boston and NY especially, are moving to Charlotte. Lots of them will be basefall fans (from an established baseball culture) who would quickly become Charlotte supporters. When NY or Boston would be in town, the attendance would be huge!

In my humble opinion, building a AAA park in 3rd Ward is a thorough waste of time and money. If an MLB stadium is not going to be built anytime soon, then let Ft. Mill keep the AAA stadium. Find a way to develop the 3rd Ward Land as an exciting new pedestrian parkway to connect to the envisioned larger 3rd Ward park.

That would be a better use of the land than a AAA stadium that won't create any energy at all~~~only 10,000 attended the opening game at Ft. Mill?

[whitehourseview]

Whitehour, actually there are teams of mixed league closer than 100 miles from one another.

Tacoma's AAA team is only 35 miles from Seattle's MLB team

Also, Everett's single A team is about 25 miles from Seattle.

Several Major League franchises are establishing Single A clubs closer to the parent club, like the Brooklyn A team that serves the Mets. They do offer cheap family entertainment for local communities along with advantages for the parent organization.

Tacoma is a AAA franchise within the hundred mile radius of a Major League Team. When Rock Hill or Kannapolis grows to 200,000+ residents like Tacoma, WA, then I'll agree that a AAA franchise could possibly coexist with the orbit of a new Major League franchise.

The next closest AAA franchise to a Major League team are Providence, RI (to Boston) and Sacramento, CA (to Oakland). Both are large city's that are capable of supporting a team.

I'm not sure that building an AAA park Uptown would be a waste of time and money, especially if the park is mostly built with private funds. Indianapolis AAA park, Victory Field, and Memphis' AutoZone Park (perhaps one of the top five parks at any level of baseball) have been rousing successes.

A ballpark can be used to create larger atmospheres of community. If the purpose of obtaining a MLB franchise (and draining funds and energy from city cofer's) is to prove how impressive the city is to the rest of the world, then I would say priorities are misplaced.

[krazeeboi]

^And I agree with that last statement.

And I think people tend to forget one fact about the relatively low attendance for Knights Games--IT'S IN FORT MILL. No Fort Mill isn't light years away from Charlotte, but being that it's not right next door either, a lot of people that would probably attend a game don't. This especially goes for University City, which is probably the fastest growing part of Charlotte (which has likely been true for some time now). Had the ballpark been located Uptown or right outside Uptown, I guarantee you the attendance would be higher.