Baseball in Charlotte, which will happen?

[atlrvr]

Did anyone go to the Uptown rally today?

Where there a lot of people there? Did the provide any new info?

[uptownliving]

I walked by while it was going on...lots of media and oh about 300-500 people. I didn't stick around very long. Nothing new to report. Counting heads on the city council I think this baseball deal has just enough votes...6-4 to get this passed.

[dubone]

Isn't 300-500 more than the rallies for the NHOF?

That is pretty impressive. I definitely get the sense that the general public wants this to go through. But if the city council keeps misrepresenting and falsely summarizing the deal, then it will struggle.

I really want this thing to pass. I REALLY want this thing to pass.

I strongly believe that 2nd Ward will stagnate for another decade if it doesn't.

[ElricSeven]

Isn't 300-500 more than the rallies for the NHOF?

That is pretty impressive. I definitely get the sense that the general public wants this to go through. But if the city council keeps misrepresenting and falsely summarizing the deal, then it will struggle.

I really want this thing to pass. I REALLY want this thing to pass.

I strongly believe that 2nd Ward will stagnate for another decade if it doesn't.

[A2]

I really want this thing to pass. I REALLY want this thing to pass.

[dubone]

I know. I've been really vague about it .

E7, I agree with you on the merits, but I somehow this is spun by many city councilmen as 'the city building a baseball stadium'.

But hopefully that is just posturing, and this will still pass. All they are spending is sidewalk and street network improvements that are already called for in the transportation plan.

It would be a huge mistake if the city ended up passing on this deal, and then have to spend more money on those same street network improvements a few years from now.

[graydog]

Previously I've posted in favor of the ballpark. I'm now opposed. I don't want another sports venue or mega-block in Uptown. It's just poor urban design (Yes Metro, we agree.)

The current proposal put forth by Center City Partners is good for the developers, the ball team and the mega corps who want more "ameneties" in Uptown. That's about it. When the team is not playing a home game (away games, off season) this area will be dead and very few people will want to build condos and retail around a dead space.

I do like the idea of moving 3rd Ward park closer to Tryon, but again, not if that means another Uptown sports stadium. It seems to me that a deal could be worked out for the park land with Mass Mutual without the 2nd Ward piece.

I also seriously doubt developers would be slow to build condos and retail stores next to the current park location.

Lastly, I have a gut feeling. If Uptown's leaders and developers want this so bad, it can't be that great of a deal for the city's future.

I just don't think we need to be in such a hurry and that we have to make such a sacrifice in urban design.

[AuLukey]

Well, I do agree with your opinion, but hopefully the part of the land swap that deals with the development around the stadium will spruce up that area enough to warrant more street life than there is now. While the stadium itself may not be the best thing for second ward, the land swap deal as a whole is a very positive thing. That's why I'm in support of it all, not for the baseball, but for everything else the package brings. With the good comes the bad...

[Rufus]

Before rushing in on this decision, city-leaders and maybe proposal developers need to travel to places with downtown, or fringe stadiums. They need not look far because Greensboro, and to an extent, Durham, have these types of stadiums. Also they may want to look at city comparable to Charlotte, like Victory Field in Indianapolis, which as been called one of the best baseball stadiums, minor and major league, in the country. Leaders need to see what has occured as a result of the stadium in terms of street activity, retail, and the "amenities" some speak of. Leaders shouldn't spend one day in a city either. They need to be present on days where there are games and days without games. Also leaders can wait and see what the retail aroind the arena in uptown will do. It could end up being beneficial, it just takes some time.

I am for the baseball proposal only if the leaders delve into the possible effects of the proposal. Leaders need to be smart about this, both economically and in an urban design perspective. There have been too many projects that have been questioned or even stalled because of their hurry.

[dubone]

Center City Partner's proposal benefits developers, developers build urban residential projects 2nd Ward and 3rd Ward, people move into those projects, those areas no longer will be dead space.

Now: Dead space

Then: Hundreds of residential units in a dense configuration

[Charlotte_native]

Center City Partner's proposal benefits developers, developers build urban residential projects 2nd Ward and 3rd Ward, people move into those projects, those areas no longer will be dead space.

Now: Dead space

Then: Hundreds of residential units in a dense configuration

[dubone]

Sorenson had a editorial on this today:

http://www.charlotte.com/mld/charlotte/15794098.htm

He said there were 1000 people there. Although, it almost doesn't matter, as it's easy to dismiss because of the food.

I love the quote:

"I'm sure there's a reason not to do this. But other than sheer petulance, I don't know what it is."

That isn't to say all the critics in this thread are, um, petulant or anything.

[browngeo]

I am all about the baseball stadium. It might not promote the ultimate urban design but anything that brings more people to uptown and delivers high density developments around it is fine by me.

Something to closely monitor is that we need to solve an upcoming parking issue in Uptown.

I have no problem since I am from a city that is used to charging parking but I have heard many, many people complain about the current parking situation and how they won't go downtown if they have to pay $3.00 or $5.00 for parking.

We need some cheap or free lots !!

[monsoon]

I am all about the baseball stadium. It might not promote the ultimate urban design but anything that brings more people to uptown and delivers high density developments around it is fine by me......

[Charlotte_native]

Sports venues don't do this. It has been proven countless times all across the United States, and there are two examples of it right in downtown Charlotte. BofA Stadium and the Bobcats Arena. I was here when proponents of both made exactly the same arguments about bringing people downtown and reviving the street life, and exactly the opposite occured. They are huge dead areas that are void of people the majority of the time.

[dubone]

The arena makes that area very vibrants during events. The main reason it has not spurred redevelopment in its immediate vicinity is that the city has held onto the land all around it. They put an RFP out for the first parcel, and two developers competed, and Blvd Centro won and will be building a 25 story building on a tiny plot of land.

In the case of the baseball stadium, we have developers already quickly taking up the parcels to develop dense housing in conjunction with the park-stadium plan.

If the standard is for all parcels to create street activity 24x7, then the only thing that satisfies that is a homeless shelter. There is a lot of pedestrian activity all day and night around homeless shelters. Middle and upper class housing doesn't provide that, as the people are at work and at restaurants, and eventually at home. Office buildings don't do that, as people are actually in the buildings at work. But when those buildings have their use scheduled, there is activity in the area.

Panthers events fills up the entirety of uptown on the weekend. People are walking everywhere, people are parking everywhere, bars and restaurants are full.

I think people don't realize, though, just how much wasted land there is downtown. There are significant numbers of blocks (I have a graphic somewhere on this thread) that are nothing but surface parking. The arena and this potential ballpark is not taking away from something else. It is taking away from surface parking!

Surface parking has created the dead area seen around much of uptown. And a poorly designed version of any land use can make an area less than ideal. But a well designed version will help.

I believe in the plan because I believe it will be fairly well designed. But the baseline that we are dealing with is not the ideal, we are dealing with the worst possible situation.

So many of these projects are steps in the right direction, and components to the larger vision of denser, higher populated, contiguous development with higher quality of design and aesthetic. But there is just so much negativity about these projects because there are some elements that are compromises from the ideal. But ideals exist nowhere and Charlotte will be far from ideal if we blow off every possible project and infrastructure element simply because it wouldn't get Jane Jacobs dancing in the grave.

[graydog]

I can't argue with replacing empty parking lots. On the other hand, if we pursued development with purpose, then maybe we could have other options.

As far as "blowing off every possible deal," that may be an overstatement bordering on petulance.

Now, to the development occuring "around" the arena and stadium, there is almost nothing that's really next to these places save for the pencil tower, and that is really just an intention. Heck, the city can't even get a few restaurants to open there.

The projects around the Panthers stadium are not in areas that connect to the stadium property. There is a definite separation. People will move to these developments because they want to live in the warehouse district.

Lastly, the development around the proposed ballpark is due to the park and museums that will be built in the neighborhood, not a proposed minor league ballpark.

The 3rd ward site is prime land. Why not build the Knights stadium in a fringe area, close to Uptown, where a dead zone won't matter. Couldn't we put it next to a freeway or train tracks?

[dubone]

Those are fair points. But the idea of mine is that uptown is its own little world. The population of that world might go up to 80-100k during the business day, with 80% of that on Tryon Street. You'll see people on Tryon, but few elsewhere. On the weekends and evenings, it would go down to closer to its residential population of 8-10k. That number cannot support the type of amenities and general economy of quaint local stores and street activity and urbtopia. Downtown needs museums, hall of fames, hotels, and major events in order to get the population up in the off hours. It also needs more people living in downtown so that the population has a higher baseline.

Those grand ideas of urban living cannot survive without critical mass of people and their money.

We are already in hot pursuit of the baseline population number, which is what half the threads in this forum are about. Some people are about buildings, but I think most of us care so much about them because we know that they are needed to build up the population living here.

But then there are these controversial visitorship projects. Those projects are the arts plan, the nascar hall, the arena, the stadium, the parks, the convention center, and so forth. Fewer people support them, but they are what the city leaders believe to be a crucial element in getting an evening and weekend economy going in downtown. We are not close to critical mass on the baseline downtown residential. The idea has been to build up the event visitorship population to a point where it can support a more stable restaurant and retail industry downtown in the off hours.

I know it is controversial. I even agree with many of the criticisms that state that this type of development is less than ideal. But I also believe that we must lower our standards a bit in order to fulfill the larger vision for a vibrant urban center. That is, the overall numbers game is far more important to the pursuit of vibrancy than subtleties of design and even land-use.

The arena surrounded by parking lots is a bit of a dead zone, and the Panthers stadium surrounded by parking lots is definitely a dead zone. But a minor league stadium surrounded by residential towers will not be. Especially if street retail is baked into the stadium design that can serve the residential customers. In my view, it will be at least equal in deadness to the office towers with ground floor retail on South Tryon.

But without the critical mass, everywhere is considered dead by the urban purists. But how do we get to critical mass when everywhere is dead, and 90% of the people flock from this world by 6pm? Event magnets are the only segue we have until the critical mass is satisfied by the baseline residential population, which, again, we are working on.

And just for the hell of it: "critical mass".

[Idaho]

[

But without the critical mass, everywhere is considered dead by the urban purists. But how do we get to critical mass when everywhere is dead, and 90% of the people flock from this world by 6pm? Event magnets are the only segue we have until the critical mass is satisfied by the baseline residential population, which, again, we are working on.

And just for the hell of it: "critical mass".

[Charlotte_native]

/\

I'm with you and we'll be neighbors, Idaho! We are moving to 230 South Tryon and had the same thoughts as you concerning the park then the baseball stadium: "Great! Can't wait for the park, wow now a stadium and a park...!!" I just don't agree that this is a bad thing with "dead zones". I assume that is really another word for parking lots in addition to areas with no nightlife. The buildings that will surround either the park or the baseball stadium will have retail/commercial/restaurant in the lower levels -- the city is basically requiring it now, so it might not be all that is desired, but FAR better than now, and I respectfully disagree and think it will add a great element of "life". Those buildings will also fill in the parking lots -- they are definitely dead now, but not when the buildings and the people in them.

The basketball arena doesn't have anything around it because the city is still holding some land, Levine is sitting on land. That is going to change. The pencil tower is just the first one announced. To assume those parking lots will stay is just not likely.

The BofA Stadium is also getting development around it -- is it not enough that it is across the street and not bumping doors? The Power Building is now Novare, that is a block away, Beazer w/ 20 acres across Morehead, Warehouse District is 1 block away...I just don't see how that is considered an area with nothing coming.

[monsoon]

Don't confuse what I said about dead areas with development. There is plenty of development in Charlotte, and alot of it is exactly the type of development you don't want if your goal is to create an urban fabric of desirable walkable streets where people will want to visit. The other thread speaks to this.

We often criticize suburbs for being single use, but taking several city blocks and devoting it to one very specific purpose such as baseball means this land will be useless to the city most of the time. And lets not forget this land will be under control of private individuals and not the public where it needs to be.

[dubone]

A baseball stadium that will be used for concerts surrounded by retail will not be signal use. If it is surrounded by residential towers with street retail, it is even less of a single use. It is a mixed used district.

If there is not retail space at the ground of this ballpark, I am opposed to it. But if there is, as is expected by most everyone, then this will not be dead. Maybe the inside will be empty, but the retail will support street life.

The suburbs are single use for entire square miles. We are talking about a public use building on 8 acres surrounded by different uses.

[swh1972]

I may be over-simplifying this, but the three schools of thought here are:

1) Do nothing with the land - leave it as a collection of surface lots and fields, we have better things to focus on.

2) Move forward with the land swap, and plans for a 3rd Ward Baseball Stadium / Park

3) Do something else with the land, either now, or somewhere down the road

Do more people tend to oppose this because of the first or third reasons?

Assuming that no one wants to see nothing done, what are some realistic alternative uses for the land? If the concern is "dead space" being created by sports complexes, what else should we be considering?

The way I see this is that to get more people Uptown, you need to have them living there, or have a reason to get them to go there (pretty deep, huh?). So build more condos and apartments, or build more attractions. I tend to think that building one will raise demand for the other.

Would a baseball stadium make you want to go to Uptown? Sure, if you are planning on going to the game. Will having it make you want to move Uptown? Perhaps. Would it keep you from going Uptown? I doubt it, and I also doubt it would keep you from moving there.

Just my opinion.

[MZT]

I'm not too wild on the plan, coming on the heels of the Arena and the NHOF... I feel like these should be settle into the fabric of the city a bit more. Then we should decide, if baseball needs to go uptown.

But if the boosters press forward with it, and all the other things planned for 2nd & 3rd Ward happen, I can see the whole package as a positive.

[Charlotte_native]

I may be over-simplifying this, but the three schools of thought here are:

1) Do nothing with the land - leave it as a collection of surface lots and fields, we have better things to focus on.

2) Move forward with the land swap, and plans for a 3rd Ward Baseball Stadium / Park

3) Do something else with the land, either now, or somewhere down the road

Do more people tend to oppose this because of the first or third reasons?

Assuming that no one wants to see nothing done, what are some realistic alternative uses for the land? If the concern is "dead space" being created by sports complexes, what else should we be considering?

The way I see this is that to get more people Uptown, you need to have them living there, or have a reason to get them to go there (pretty deep, huh?). So build more condos and apartments, or build more attractions. I tend to think that building one will raise demand for the other.

Would a baseball stadium make you want to go to Uptown? Sure, if you are planning on going to the game. Will having it make you want to move Uptown? Perhaps. Would it keep you from going Uptown? I doubt it, and I also doubt it would keep you from moving there.

Just my opinion.