Baseball in Charlotte, which will happen?

[dubone]

I have an idea that will not satisfy very many people here, but I personally like it better, so I want to throw it out there.

There are a few major problems with the 8 acre site for baseball. The first is that the site is not expandable for major leagues. The second is that many view it as being too disruptive to the new development in 3rd Ward as it is in the dead center. The third is that is it actually cuts off 3rd, which some transportation planners were hoping to keep. The fourth is that Virginia Paper building becomes toast.

So here is my proposal. Why not work harder and throw two more landowners into the mix and do the following:

Basically, shift Graham street slightly, causing the Graham Street to Mint Street separation to be equivalent to the typical block width as uptown, but providing space for the stadium between Graham Street and the railroad tracks. The current landholders behind the tracks are Greyhound and Furman. The Furman block has much lower development value, as it is by the tracks, and the power substation. By trading the lower valued block for a significantly higher value block, Furman should be able to use the extra value for a project that could be a partnership with Greyhound. That is, build the larger parking deck for the greyhound busses, in addition to a residential tower. There is also the Virginia Paper building that is retained on that block for reuse, sale, or incorporation into the Furman project.

Moving baseball back to the tracks solves some of the concerns that it will detract from the new development in the area. But what it also does is reserve the possibility for a future MLB expansion. There is a wide NCDOT section including the tracks and the area that is potentially the commuter rail vehicle maintenance facility. However, those facilities could be built over top of whenever the time came for baseball, and be funded by funding sources available at that future date. Baseball wouldn't need to worry about being dead on 2 sides, as those sides face the tracks and the power station.

By moving the stadium back, it also provides the ability to keep 3 acres in the county as a park (maintaining the 8 acres, albeit with a street separating the farther part). But the park then has a linear orientation, with a vista to the baseball park. Potentially these extra 3 acres could be done as a paved plaza for a different type of event and vibe.

Lastly, it preserves more of the grid than would have occurred if baseball or a park went on the contiguous 8 acres. Both Graham and Mint can be used by eastbound traffic to get from 4th to 3rd.

What do you all think? And please just hold off on the 'don't build baseball at all' thing. I worked very hard on this, and at least want to consider it as a alternative before we go back to the general debate on if.

EDIT: If the link above doesn't work, I added a screenshot of it below.

[lukedog]

^But if the city/county is the owner of the land surrounding Marshall Park and they're willing to swap it with someone, in this case MassMutual, who'll redevelop it, why couldn't they just sell their own land outright to develop condos, etc in Second Ward and create what's being proposed for Third Ward? Why the need for the shell game? And would the "full size" 8-acre park really be close enough to Tryon to attract people from that area? I don't think it will. And it'd only really be surrounded on two sides with new development, if I'm remembering correctly. The south side butts up against the Duke parking garage and the west fronts Graham St and the RR tracks just beyond that. It just seems like it'd be 'slightly' better than Marshall Park at best.

I know there are a lot of factors in play here, and I'm surely oversimplifying the matter, but it seems like a lot of debate and hullabaloo over a park that'd more than likely be empty during the day and filled with vagrants at night.

[uptownliving]

dubone, I am having a hard time understanding your plan. You are proposing to expand the baseball stadium on top of the railroad tracks? At least that is what your graphic shows.

Also the land you put the baseball stadium on is where they are going to start building the new Greyhound Bus Station (supposedly in 2007) so I'm not sure it would work.

[dubone]

The clarifications are as follows. They would stop the Greyhound construction on this land and give them another location. That station is really just a parking deck with ground facilities for ticketing, so I think something could conceivably be worked out. NCDOT owns every block west of Smith Street from Trade to 9th, there is certainly land, it is just a matter of getting Greyhound and NCDOT to agree. I'm not sure this is possible, but it seems to be worth trying.

Putting the AAA stadium against the tracks would provide space for expansion over the tracks whenever the time came. It would be expensive, but at least possible, which would not be the case with the current land selection. That means, 20 years from now when Charlotte has doubled in size and has considerably more wealth, but considerably less available land, a new stadium could be built for MLB in the same location. It would not be the kind of expansion that is just throwing up a few extra bleachers on the back and calling it a day, but then again, there is no chance on earth that any stadium the Knights build privately now would be palatable to an MLB team of 2025, so why bother trying. But the key on expandability is to provide enough potential space in a contiguous configuration. We are expecting MLB, but we all know that it will be an entire generation or stadium lifespan before it will come.

A trade with Furman (or whatever landowner currently controlls the crappy block at Graham and 2nd) shouldn't be a problem, as almost any parcel uptown would be more developable than that one. The big issue would be the NCDOT and Greyhound piece. Who knows, though, maybe there could be a way to incorporate the Greyhound lot in the basement level of the stadium. Almost like a shared loading dock/bus lot facility. Or maybe more efficient design could blend it within the 8 acres.

Presuming it were possible to muscle DOT and Greyhound into the deal, I feel like this would have vastly more long term potential than baseball on the current county land. We are still at the phase where politicians are playing with this, so why not push for improvements within the confines of their goals?

[cinco]

dubone, i think your amendments to the landswap deal are excellent. they solve a number of my issues and even gave the added perk of getting the streets aligned to a grid. also, if the virginia paper building could be used as a farmers market (as has been discussed here) that would do wonders to alleviate the deadzone effect... and on game days the city could rent out booths there for venders. hhhmmmm... very interesting.

your plan solves this question... but, in the current plan, is there any indication as to what would happen to the ballpark land when it's time is up? the reason i ask - is, that i just don't see AAA ball having a long life in our fast growing metropolis.

[atlrvr]

I believe that CCCP is pitching that it COULD be expanded if Graham St. was jogged west a little, and perhap, they would want any development to occur to the west of Graham to consider that.....IMO, I would want MLB to build a new stadium outside of downtown, and that land sold to private developers....OR....it could be added as additional park space like in Dubone's image.

[monsoon]

What do you all think? And please just hold off on the 'don't build baseball at all' thing. I worked very hard on this, and at least want to consider it as a alternative before we go back to the general debate on if.

[dubone]

I guess my vision would be that the rail use of that land would continue, and baseball would simply cap it at baseball's expense whenever the time came. It would be a vertical integration, rather than an replacement.

Don't get me wrong, I actually agree with many people on here that AAA would have a finite lifespan in 3rd Ward, and MLB go elsewhere when the time came. However, I think it would be wise to at least leave the option open so that could be debated in 20 years. Otherwise, it is possible that MLB would need to buy land and tear things down.

[Charlotte_native]

Don't get me wrong, I actually agree with many people on here that AAA would have a finite lifespan in 3rd Ward, and MLB go elsewhere when the time came. However, I think it would be wise to at least leave the option open so that could be debated in 20 years. Otherwise, it is possible that MLB would need to buy land and tear things down.

[dubone]

C_N, I'm referring to my own counter proposal a few posts above. The reason Michael Smith says it cannot be expanded is because the 8 acre land is not enough for MLB, and being surrounded on 4 sides by permanent streets and permanent development means it is out of the question. My thesis is that by moving the stadium to west of Graham backing up to the tracks and the land reserved for additional tracks or vehicle maintenance facility, there would be available land to build over for an MLB stadium 15-30 years from now.

The fact that no land is available around the 8 acre site means two things, that the land (which will be retained in ownership by the city/public) will revert to another use whenever Charlotte goes to the next level in this sport. It is a negative or a positive depending on your stance, and an array of future variables.

[reverbandwhiskey]

I guess my vision would be that the rail use of that land would continue, and baseball would simply cap it at baseball's expense whenever the time came. It would be a vertical integration, rather than an replacement.

Don't get me wrong, I actually agree with many people on here that AAA would have a finite lifespan in 3rd Ward, and MLB go elsewhere when the time came. However, I think it would be wise to at least leave the option open so that could be debated in 20 years. Otherwise, it is possible that MLB would need to buy land and tear things down.

[dubone]

Football did, so why not baseball in the context of a much richer city 20 years from now. The costs of capping railroad tracks and a rail yard would likely be very competitive with the costs of obtaining ~12 acres of developed land in walking distance of 100,000 workers and 30,000 residents hypothetically.

Anyway, the possibility of expandability is just one element of my proposal. It also moves the AAA stadium to next to the tracks and power substation, where it will have less negative impact on the heart of the new 3rd Ward. It also saves Virginia Paper, preserves and improves the grid street network, provides a more liveable and valuable site for residential, adds more park land.

[dubone]

Here is a different version with more detail, as I wasn't happy with the previous version. I also have Greyhound wrapping the power substation, as there is enough area there to be equivalent to their current land area, but they could build a deck there, too. It would be best if they could actually build over the substation, but they could also certainly build around it.

On the block around the VA Paper building, I would suspect that it is enough more valuable than the block by the tracks that Furman controlls. I bet a trade could be done where only 1/4 of that block would go for the trade with a similar land area as Trademark went on. The city could then subdivide very small lots like this:

That could allow for new pencil towers or more natural urban development.

[graydog]

Nice job. Awesome. I could live with minor league baseball in Uptown with a plan like this. This is the piece that was missing with Smith's plan: thoughtful design.

BTW it's a bad idea to put a big chunk of 2nd Ward in 1 developer's hands.

[C_C_Planner]

Here is a different version with more detail, as I wasn't happy with the previous version. I also have Greyhound wrapping the power substation, as there is enough area there to be equivalent to their current land area, but they could build a deck there, too. It would be best if they could actually build over the substation, but they could also certainly build around it.

On the block around the VA Paper building, I would suspect that it is enough more valuable than the block by the tracks that Furman controlls. I bet a trade could be done where only 1/4 of that block would go for the trade with a similar land area as Trademark went on. The city could then subdivide very small lots like this:

That could allow for new pencil towers or more natural urban development.

[dubone]

Well, a walkway along the for two blocks tracks would not be so bad. But there could be other options, maybe even to be incorporated into the baseball stadium. I don't quite understand why the AAA stadium needs the full 8 acres anyway. I think the Greyhound station could be put in the basement of the stadium with a loading base for the building.

Maybe even a a subterranean deck under the extra park area I have shown. 1-2 blocks away from Gateway Station would still have the proximity benefits.

[monsoon]

Football did,

[swh1972]

Actually the city paid $64M towards that project (which is about $100M in today's money) and in return they got a facility that basically has killed that part of downtown Charlotte.

[dubone]

The $64m was primarily for all the land and road work. But in this hypothetical case, the land would be publicly owned already (although it comes with more structural requirements to build over the rails), and the street network would already be done. If that debate is held 20 years from now, and the city decides to toe the line and not give any more, this site would still be sufficient for a privately funded MLB stadium.

But it is just one element of my plan. Even without MLB a possibility, I would still want the AAA stadium against the tracks.

[monsoon]

Small price to pay for getting an NFL Team for the city/region.

[dubone]

Okay, nevermind. Thanks anyway.

Let's just put everything ever in Pineville and call it a day. What a waste of time that was.

[monsoon]

Okay, nevermind. Thanks anyway.

Let's just put everything ever in Pineville and call it a day. What a waste of time that was.

[reverbandwhiskey]

Small price to pay for getting an NFL Team for the city/region.

[Charlotte_native]

Hmmm...lets see what date the stadium was built. What date did more activity and nightlife show up in center city? I wonder when people started moving at far greater numbers than before to center city. I think that is also about when, well it would have to be, developers started building more in center city. Prices went up dramatically at the same time.

I won't say all of that is due to football, the stadium, or whether it is just coincidence, but they do coincide. I, for one, would likely not be moving downtown had i not started attending all kinds of events, parties, tailgates, games, after parties, etc., that occur downtown now because before or after the game that is where people are. I think a lot of folks that never ventured out of Southpark or the burbs now have reason to be in center city.

I personally believe, fully, the downtown would not have near the activity or number of residents, or at least not as quickly, if this investment had not been made.

We are still ignoring the many projects that completely ring the stadium that are either already being built or are in the early to almost-start stages. Novare, Power Building, Beazer, Warehouse District...if that is dead, bring on the dead zones.

Before the staduim, absolutely no activity in this quadrant other than the true underground raves everyone had in the vacant warehouses. No one lived in the area unless they were homeless.

Putting the stadium, or any large venue like that, "out somewhere else" leads to dull and boring events that circle around that single period of time that the event takes place. The arena on Tyvola sucked hardcore because everyone showed up at once, just before the game, because tailgating was not encouraged. Then when the game was over everyone rushed to their car and, what, 6 or 7 lanes led everyone quickly to the interstate so they could be home fast fast fast. The events at BofA stadium last all day and night -- just go down there tomorrow at noon and see how many people are downtown due to a game that starts at 8:15 pm.

[Charlotte_native]

Yea 64 million dollars for a stadium that is used a dozen times a year.