Achilles

Perhaps it will. The article mentions something about Jillian's departure giving Norfolk quote "latitude in a new plan for Waterside." Although, Waterside has been many things before, so idk how well that's going to work out. I wonder if the city is intentionally driving these tenants out to start with a clean-slate for Waterside. Hopefully, they have some kind of plan for it that's not lame.

Beat me to it. I'm not sure if this is a good thing (if people never knew before, everyone will finally see how bad Waterside has become and actually do something to solve the problem, rather than escalate it) or a truly bad thing. I really don't think Waterside should be bulldozed for something else because that would be a serious waste of time and money, IMHO.

I think so. I'll admit, until this past year, I never really followed construction projects around here as closely as I do now. Speaking of 9/11, the One World Trade Center (formerly known as the Freedom Tower) is having its own problems lifting off. It was originally scheduled to be topped off sometime next year or in 2011, but now, it has been significantly pushed back to 2013. And there are even rumors that it may not be fully completed until 2018 (Source: the New York Daily News). This is New York we're talking about here; the skyscraper capital of the world, IMO. If they can't get something built on time, then I don't think we should be worrying too much about everything. But, yeah, I don't believe things are as bad as they seem.

Granby Tower failed cause the stupid court delayed it in 2004 (or 2005?) and, basically, killed it with the economy falling apart in 2008 and eminent domain. This is happening across the country, even in places a renowned as Las Vegas and San Diego. I'm no economist or urban planner, but I'm fairly certain that, if they don't have the financing, the developers will likely ride out the economic turmoil and then start building once things start looking better. Also, I think we should keep politics out of this thread. We don't need people clawing each others eyes out over something not directly related to urban planning (actually, politics are very much involved in urban planning, but Obama and Palin are not).

Varider, you have to understand this all has to do with the economy. Nobody's building anything right now, but they will later on when the economy picks up. Just because Town Center has stalled doesn't mean they're not going to finish it. In the next couple years, things ought to be looking up (I hope).

Jacksonville worked hard to get that team, and it would be a bit sad to see them lose it to another, bigger and more prominent metro. But, in response to your question, take a look at the Washington Nationals. They've been around since 2005 and are absolutely horrendous. If you ever watch any of their home games, you will notice that very, very few of their fans are present. If a team like the Phillies, the Reds, or the Mets come to play, Nats fans are almost always outnumbered by fans of the other team in their own home stadium. For their sake, though, they are lucky because they recently completed Nationals Park, which ought to give Washington a good grip on the team (regardless of how bad they are) for another 5-10 years. Personally, I think, if Hampton Roads ever got a team and it did poorly, support probably would drop. But any team that is an expansion or relocates somewhere else is usually guaranteed ten years in their designated metro before the NFL, MLB, NBA, NHL, etc. decides to move the team elsewhere. So we would have to spend those ten years building a good team and creating a strong, dedicated fan base. WHAT?! Are you serious? If I'm not mistaken, they just had the Beach Blitz again this year, and VA Beach turned down a chance for a training camp? What could possibly be the reasoning for that, other than an attempt to keep our market clear of other teams' presence in case we get chance to have a team of our own some day?

Yeah, I think carolinaboy is right. It's a possibility. But there are way too many die-hard Redskins, Steelers, Ravens, and Panthers fans around here. And without any large stadiums to accommodate an NFL team it will be a lot harder. It could happen, though. L.A. has proven time and time again it cannot support an NFL team. Honestly, I think L.A. needs the Rams back, but there are rumors that team will be relocated to London in the future, so idk about that. Who knows? Anything could happen.

Heck, I'm from Newport News, and even I support the Southside option. Norfolk is the urban core and desperately needs a passenger rail line of its own. It's only about a 45-55 minute drive to Richmond from the Peninsula, and if I-64 West is ever widened, that time will be cut even shorter. High-speed rail for Norfolk would be the best. In all my life on the Peninsula, I have not once used the Amtrak line, but I am glad they will most likely be upgrading it anyways. If I lived in the Southside, though, I'd probably think twice about battling the HRBT/MMMBT traffic (and the insane traffic in D.C.) and ride a high-speed train to D.C., instead. Besides, I can see the high-speed line to Norfolk as a benefit to all of Hampton Roads (the Peninsula included) in the future.

I really hope they can attain National Park status: Development Authority director looks to the private sector but rules out widespread building at Fort Monroe. I like how this is all coming together, especially since they want to keep Fort Monroe active/alive 24/7 with tourists and residents. I wouldn't consider this true urban development, but it certainly will boost tourism in our region with proper advertising and such. Heck, it may even help revitalize Buckroe, which would be awesome. Edit: Sorry! I just realized this is a locked topic. I don't want to cause any trouble.

Yeah, you're right; it opened November 21st. It's good to hear that's still receiving the support.

I don't think it's the economy as much as it is people just not caring enough about it. This easily could have happened in 2006 or 2007. Norfolk will already be having its own temporary ice-rink, anyways, with sponsorship from HRT and Nauticus, among others: MacArthur on Ice. I wouldn't worry too much about it. Edit: I'm still trying to figure out how to properly post links here.

Very true. I read an article in the Pilot that said over the past decade NoVA has received a little over 50% of VA's transportation funding!!! I mean, I can understand them having a significant piece of funding since they're in the metro of our nation's capital and really do need the funds to alleviate some of those D.C. bumper-to-bumper nightmares along I-95, but 50% is ridiculous since NoVA already has such services as the Washington Metro rapid transit and the Virginia Railway Express commuter rail, and the largest cities in VA are in Hampton Roads and are still working on building just a single light rail line, which, hopefully, will extend to the largest city in VA.

I'm gonna have to agree. It would be nice to have a Peninsula city in there as well, though. Like VA Beach-Norfolk-Newport News or Norfolk-VA Beach-Newport News. But I think that's asking for too much. If it benefits the region more, I'd be fine with VA Beach-Norfolk or Norfolk-VA Beach. Although, I must say, I don't mind the name Hampton Roads. I used to hate it and think it was ugly, but it's grown on me now. It has a lot of history to it, actually.

Yeah, I know that. This ABA is nowhere near the status of the old ABA. Plus, the NBA has been established in the public mind for so long that it is the only league people will support for pro basketball in the U.S. I read into this new ABA some more and came to realize that. The old ABA, at least, had a better chance back in the 70s like the 1959 AFL did in the 60s. As much as I want this franchise to be successful and getting the NBA to expand here, I cannot. All I can say is that something is better than nothing. I believe we discussed that the Scope needs to be used more in this thread, so I think this will help.

I was really excited about this at first...until I looked at the teams. The good news is, a majority of those teams are located in big cities that also have NBA teams, and thus, we will be able to see teams from those cities come to Norfolk and play. If we're lucky and give this team a lot of support and maybe someday a new, pro-sized arena, we might be able to convince the NBA to make our ABA team an NBA team like the Spurs and the Nets were in the late 70s. According to Wikipedia, the new ABA's been around since 2000, but I've noticed a lot of their teams are in big cities. If the ABA can convince the NBA that the ABA's enough of a threat, then we might be able to get Norfolk's team into the NBA. Considering the Pilot and the Daily Press didn't cover it yet, I don't think it is. I think this will be better than a D-League team, though. You never know; it might grow up someday.

Oh, I see; cool. Thanks for clearing that up for me. And, yeah, I would assume it would be in the VB construction forum. There's just so much stuff to read through here I end up missing a lot of things.

You said it. We're certainly not the only ones with stalled/canceled buildings. Although, ironically, you'd expect more buildings to be built right now because construction is so CHEAP. I know someone who's an electrical contractor, and he tells me he's losing a lot of jobs to other companies who are WAY underbidding him and his company and that, if he bids any lower, he won't make any sort of profit at all and will, basically, be wasting time and money. It's nothing but good news for the customers, though. You get custom, quality construction, etc. (well, hopefully) for a rock-bottom price. I'm guessing other factors--like attracting tenants--are in play here, though. Can't afford to build something and pay property taxes on it, etc. without having any tenants to provide you with any income for such a building.

Quick question that I should have asked a while ago: When I was in Virginia Beach a couple weeks ago to see blink-182 at the VA Beach Amphitheater, I noticed some construction next to Damn Neck Road (between the Amphitheater and Princess Anne Road). I don't know if it's just housing or something, but on Google maps, it looks like it's near the Sportsplex. I'm not entirely sure if someone's already posted something about this. If so (or if it's just nothing), sorry!

I agree with hollise the most because he sums up my argument for pro sports in Hampton Roads (and why we lack them), but I also believe oduengineer has some valid points. Getting local people to invest in a team/stadium will be difficult, but if they were willing take a risk for the Expos, they'll probably be willing to take a risk for other teams. Of course, they would, kiddo. What's more is that, this past season, the O's and the Nats (even though they're my teams unless Hampton Roads gets a team of its own) were the worst teams in their leagues. The Nats had back-to-back 100 game losing seasons, and the O's were about 32 games behind the Red Sox for the Wild Card race at the end of the season, I believe. I'm not sure if the Lighting/Admirals game sold out either, but that would definitely be something to look into. I also am pretty sure the Grizzlies/Wizards game in Richmond sold out. If you see where I'm going with this, you'll understand that we've been selling out (yeah, I know Richmond's not a part of Hampton Roads, but we still have a lot of things in common with them, and Richmond is kind of like a brother/sister to us in some ways) for some of the worst teams in their leagues (the Tampa Bay Lighting is rather pitiful and so are the Grizzlies and Wizards). Could you imagine how well we could do with actual major league teams that actually play well? Another thing I'd like to add is that, even if not everyone in Hampton Roads wants to see a lot of games (or any games) for any pro teams we can get here, you have to remember that not everyone who sees such games are locals. During the summer, when tourism is at its peak here, we could get tourists to come see MLB games (or MLS) and, during the fall/winter/spring, if we have NFL, NBA or NHL teams, we could attract more tourists than ever before in our region's "off-season." Heck, I went and saw a Rays game when my friends and I drove down to the Tampa Bay area this past summer. Speaking of which, you might want to look into the history of the Rays, since they built Tropicana Field a few years before they even knew they were going to have an MLB team for it. Seriously, look into the history of Tropicana Field, and you'll see what I mean; it's a lot like what we're talking about now. I just wish some of the local "rich-and-powerful," Hampton Roads politicians/officials, etc. around here were reading the comments on this site. Guess we'll just have to take the comments to them.

Alright, I gotcha. And, yeah, I agree that there must be some justification before any city money is used to build anything. Actually, Salt Lake City has two pro teams: the Utah Jazz (NBA) and Real Salt Lake (MLS). And, if no one knows this, Virginia and Louisville used to have pro basketball teams in the ABA, which later merged with the NBA when the ABA folded. VA had the VA Squires which played in the Norfolk Scope, the Hampton Coliseum, and the Richmond Coliseum. Louisville had the Kentucky Colonels. We lost the Squires mainly because their manager was bad and decided to trade away fan favorites George Gervin and Julius Erving to fellow ABA teams (and current NBA teams) the San Antonio Spurs and the New York Nets respectively. Had that not happened, fans would not have abandoned the Squires and we would probably have still had them. You're right about Austin; even in the recession, it is one of the fastest growing cities in the nation ans is already the 15th largest city in the United States. However, they're only about an hour away from San Antonio, which already has an NBA team (the Spurs). And, if Austin did get anything better than an NBA, NHL, or MLS team, it would be rather unfair since Texas already has two MLB and NFL teams both about 3-3 1/2 hours away (and, yeah, I know California has like 3 NFL and 5 MLB teams, but that's because California practically takes up the entire West Coast). The Mariners are the only other West Coast team. Providence and Vegas, though, are different. Providence may be the size of Hampton Roads, but they're a mere hour away from Boston and 3 hours from NYC. The nearest pro teams to Hampton Roads are in the Baltimore/Washington metro (3 hours) and Charlotte (6 hours). We have a decided advantage on that. Vegas doesn't need pro sports because sports other than poker really aren't a part of their culture (and gambling is an issue, like you said); although, that doesn't mean Las Vegas residents would refuse to support any teams that relocated/expand there. But Vegas has and always will be a part of pop culture and does not need teams to promote itself. Most people go to Vegas for one reason and one reason alone. And, oddly enough, the Clippers get quite a few fans, mainly because they play in the same arena as the Lakers. If you look at the attendance of each of the various stadiums/arenas for each of the various pro sports on ESPN.com, you'll be pretty surprised by some of the figures you see. But, yeah, we need a group like I've been saying to court these pro sports leagues and attempt to bring teams here. If we keep trying, we're bound to get something.

I think y'all (varider and cpeaksqr) both misunderstood each other. I'm pretty sure cpeaksqr was being sarcastic and was trying to point out that an MLB stadium would not be funded by private investment, but I think varider meant that housing and retail in Norfolk and SPQ should be paid for by private investment rather than a pro sports stadium. I could be wrong, though. Also, varider, in response to your comment about me losing my "optimism," I have not lost it, and as I said, I certainly am not going to stop trying to bring pro teams here. I was just saying my idea about building a stadium/arena without having a pro team to call it home was probably a bit too optimistic and unreal. The commenters (including you) here seem to be more knowledgeable on urban planning (obviously) and the like than me, so I trust they would know whether my idea would have any merit to it.

No, I was not, as a matter of fact, but I am now. Yeah, you're right. I figured it was too good to be true. And, yeah, paying off all the money spent for such a big stadium that might go to waste would take forever...and ever. I'm too optimistic about bringing pro sports here, I guess. Norfolk really does need to use the Scope more often for sporting events, though. Having arena football again is out of the question, though, since the AFL folded this year. However, we may have hopes of bringing yet another minor league team here with the formation of the UFL. The UFL has said they are looking to expand into metros without major league teams like Des Moines and Omaha. The UFL says it's supposed to "rival" the NFL, but I seriously doubt that. If anything, it will be a minor league affiliate of the NFL. It'd be pretty sweet if the UFL did give us a team, and the NFL decided to make it a part of the NFL like it did with the teams in the 1959 AFL. But I seriously doubt that as well. We are, essentially, unable to bring pro sports here because we're stuck with all these venues and stadiums that are critical to our major sports teams like the Tides and the Admirals but are unable to hold enough people for any pro sports. Tearing down any of these venues would be a horrible idea and a big waste of big bucks but keeping them around without using them for much isn't helping either. It's our metro's Catch-22. It certainly won't keep me from trying to bring pro teams here, though.

Lol. Yeah, definitely. I don't understand that at all. Not every Hampton Roads city or county needs to be urban like Norfolk or VA Beach (because, personally, I don't believe all of Hampton Roads needs to be), but if they're not going to be urban, they should understand that the most populous and urban cities in the metro deserve the teams the most because the big cities have the $$$ and population to sustain them (unless it's football, where the stadium is best located outside the more urban parts of the metro; for an NFL team in Hampton Roads, Williamsburg, James City County, Isle of Wight, Smithfield, Chesapeake, and Suffolk come to mind). Agreed. Touchdown! Jacksonville didn't get a team right away, but with strong will and the help of some of the political types, it sure did eventually. My hopes are to do the same. By far, MLB would be my favorite sports team to acquire since it would be rather difficult to peel away the Redskins' expansive fan base despite how bad they are. But who knows? I'll be happy to take anything higher than minor league teams. Really? By SPQuad, you mean Saint Paul's Quadrant, right? I hope they continue to pursue this plan once they have the funds for it again. If it's a baseball or football stadium, it should have 40,000 seats or more (By comparison Dick Price Stadium holds up to 30,000 people, Foreman Field holds a little less than 20,000 people, and Harbor Park barely holds 12,000 people). If it's a basketball or hockey arena, it should have 18-20,000 seats. (By comparison, the Hampton Coliseum and the Norfolk Scope hold little over 8,000 people for basketball and hockey games). We cannot expect any teams to relocate here until we have stadiums/arenas large enough to accommodate them. Also, I hope VA Beach builds that stadium I saw in the plans they have for Pembroke. It looked pretty high-end compared to the stadiums we have around here. Hopefully, no one intervenes and strikes it down. What I find funniest of all out of all of this is that we're probably gonna be the only metro in the nation with a light rail line stopping at a minor league stadium. Lol. But maybe The Tide will help change that.

Oh, no, of course not. But other types of companies (as you said) certainly would. A strong source of white-collar jobs is what this area needs to complement our rich blue-collar base (military, fisheries, tourism, etc.). Although, I have to admit, I am very frightened about the things I've been reading in some recent articles in the Virginia Pilot and the Daily Press. There's talk that one of carriers may be relocated to Mayport, FL sometime in the future, if the U.S. gov't decides to send one there. Measures are already being taken to improve Mayport's naval port to accommodate a carrier. Idk if it's just sensationalist journalism or not, but it sure has me jittery. If we lose just one carrier, we'd be losing 5,000 jobs and some $90 million (if I remember the DP article right). If FL gets one of our carriers, it could spell disaster for us, and we certainly don't need any of that to improve our metro. And, yeah, VB growth has slowed, but if we can give more people an incentive to move here, we can, hopefully, improve that. The recession's had a huge effect on everything, and I think, once we're out of this, we'll have a much easier time attracting businesses here. I don't really think we need 20 F500 companies (and I seriously doubt we'll ever have that many during this century), but we definitely need more than just Norfolk Southern, Dollar Tree, and Smithfield Foods. Our economy is too reliant on defense spending, and our population growth is too reliant on nationwide transplants from the military; it is far too unstable, even though these factors are keeping our economy afloat right now. I know I'm basically repeating what I said in the first paragraph, but that's how important I think this is. I'd like to keep all of our military bases and jobs, but I'd also like to see more job growth in the private sector. But, of course, most cities and metros would like that also...

Well, personally, I would love to have pro sports teams here. I was just trying to find some kind of middle ground between the posters here who are really passionate about having a team here, the posters who kind of want a team here, and the ones who think pro sports teams are overrated, and we just need ODU. I'm actually trying to form some kind of group sometime in the near future that would be dedicated to bringing pro sports to Hampton Roads in hopes that it may, someday, succeed. After all, forming a group dedicated to acquiring an NFL team played a major role in how Jacksonville got the Jaguars. By forming a group called Touchdown! Jacksonville and showing they were very dedicated to getting an NFL team, Jacksonville prevailed against all odds and beat out Baltimore and St. Louis, among others, to acquire the Jaguars. My opinion on having a pro sports teams is stated in the post you quoted. To add to that post, though, if we get a team, I believe the best course of action would be to name them the "Virginia ______" (like many people have said before) and have an agreement between all of the Hampton Roads cities and counties (or, at least, the seven cities) that any money collected to support the team(s) would be taken from all of them rather than just the city that contains the team(s) home stadium (although, I believe the city that has the stadium should probably pay slightly more money than the others, but idk about that). I'm not sure if this makes any sense to anyone, but I'm just trying to form a good plan so that, in case we get a chance to acquire a team, arguments between the cities and counties doesn't make the deal fall through. Also, I think we were very close to having the Expos. However, Norfolk's plan to house them temporarily in an expanded Harbor Park was inadequate. D.C. (being the nation's capital and a very large, well-known city) has a lot of pull and was easily able to get the Expos. Plus, D.C. already had RFK Stadium for the Expos, which was a ready-made pro sports stadium. If Norfolk had a nice stadium that could house up to 40,000-50,000 people, I think they would have had a better chance at getting the Expos. Crazy as it may seem, I think we should just go ahead and build a nice, high-capacity stadium or arena somewhere in a convienient location in Hampton Roads in hopes of attracting a pro team. It would provide a ready-made home for a new team (most likely a relocated one since expansion of most pro sports leagues is pretty much out of the question right now), so the team could continue playing in the next season, and it would show our dedication to acquiring a pro team. The obvious problem with building a stadium/arena without even having a team yet is the inevitable public outcry and the idea that such a stadium/arena would be a complete waste of taxpayer money, especially if it fails to attract any teams at all within 3-5 years. But it worked for Tampa Bay when they built Tropicana Field and attracted the Devil Rays (or Rays as they're now called). And it worked for Oklahoma City, who built the Ford Center and recently attracted the Oklahoma City Thunder (partially due to Hurricane Katrina forcing the Hornets to play there for a couple seasons, though). My thoughts on this could be very flawed, though. I hope no one thinks I'm dumb for proposing such a radical idea.