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West End Summit update

william

By william
in Nashville

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Midtown Unincorporated Area

Midtown

Posted
Posted
According to workers on site, concrete will not even be ready to poured until September. That is when you should start seeing permits being pulled for construction. Not until then. The shell permit for the Suntrust center was not pulled until the hole was dug.

So, lets wait till this fall and see what happens.

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MidTenn1 Town

MidTenn1

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Are there any official stats for the number of floors and final height of the two towers? I would love to get this information. Duke32, are you out there? Do you know anything about this?

Great to hear, Ron, that you've heard financing is secure. What a great project this one is! It will have been worth the long, long wait.

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Jeeper12 Hamlet

Jeeper12

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That's undoubtedly true, the almost unrelated spam from Sacramento notwithstanding, the wisdom of the developer putting up 1200 feet of towers full of living units seems to be a lot more similar to another project in Nashville, than the relative small scale of the 300 hotel rooms and 50 living units at the WES.
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Midtown Unincorporated Area

Midtown

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Respectfully, I think you may be drawing your own conclusions about why I posted the Intercontinental information. It was something I discovered and I wanted to share it as a point of information. I think it adds to the character of the project.

From my perspective, what Palmer Company does internally is really none of our business. Negative speculation and whining about their success just comes off looking partisan. Naturally, if the Summit moves forward, it may well put pressure on other sites.

Using "virtually all the local commercial brokers I have talked to" is a notoriously inaccurate source of information, with all due respect to the fine brokerage community we have in this beautiful city. If they're not involved with a deal, they are obviously not going to be in the information loop.

There is no need to justify why someone is excited about this development, just about everyone in town should be. I'm excited about this project and any other one that can improve and enhance my neighborhood and Nashville Tennessee in general. I don't share the negative speculation of pending gloom and doom I see posted here from time to time. I don't have confidence in the numbers popping up on this forum either, and there's no point in commenting about the financial dealings neither of us have any real details on.

Palmer Co did a series of office buildings on the West Coast a few years ago, and I don't recall seeing them laying out their financials on those projects, but somehow they were built. I subscribe to the "cup is always half full" philosophy, I like good architecture, and I am pro-Nashville. Therefore, yes, I'm also a big Palmer fan because I think this project is going to be a nice gift to Nashville, and I wish more people would step up to the plate with a heavy bat and knock it out of the park (too). People may whine about how long it has taken to do this deal, but I can remember what a rat infested neighborhood was there before Palmer Co bought the property. Yes, I'm very excited about it, because their record is strong.

By appearing negative on the project, especially now that it's under way, people's motives are going to be open for speculation. They may not like seeing optimistic postings from others who want to see this project get built. Some of them may think they are entitled to financial information about the project.

Someone already mentioned the building can be topping out and there may still be a negative spin by people who have competing vested interests, or who may just have a negative impression of this part of Nashville growth, thinking tall buildings belong downtown or some other silly notion. If they're negative about THIS project, they're just going to have to learn to live with it, and hopefully that won't be too difficult a task, especially if they own real estate next to (or nearby) this site. One of the reasons I'm so pumped about this one, is I don't think people realize the real impact it will have on the area, and the city. I wish I bought some of those properties next to the Summit site a few years ago, you think I'm optimistic now, ha, I'd be doing back flips !

Regqrding your question about when an announcement will be made ..... "probably when they get good and ready", would be my guess. Personally, I like the concept of "doing what they said they would do", rather than just blowing hot air.

Midtown

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Jeeper12 Hamlet

Jeeper12

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^ Respectfully, that wasn't much of a response to the specific points I raised but that's ok, you seem to be more of an advocate for WES than an objective bystander. I also don't think you've fairly questioned anyone's motives. Nor is it appropriate IMO to suggest that anyone engaged in discussion about the status of a particular project in town feel compelled to share your glowing enthusiasm. And candidly, since you're arrival at UP a few months ago I haven't seen you get too excited about any projects in town other than WES. It seems to me that ST could be argued to have the same kind of uplifting effect that you see WES having on midtown yet you disparaged the efforts of that developer in your response about the Sacramento developer's vision being too grand. :shades:

Again, contrary to your suggestion there is nothing inappropriate about any of us discussing the expected next steps of a project based upon the known facts in the marketplace. Some of these facts are only known by the developer and some information is more widely available since, as you must know, bankers, brokers, appraisers, contractors, subcontractors tend to talk "out of school" and discuss things about projects that move across their desk. As much as developers like to control and carefully influence public sentiment the facts are the facts and sooner or later they find their way into the public realm. These folks talk to their buddies, talk to reporters on background (ask Lawson) and yes, some even talk to UP, or used to (sorry Duke32). And just because they aren't the developer doesn't mean they don't offer information or opinions that are useful to trying to draw conclusions about where exactly things stand.

Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe the west coast buildings you referred to were all GSA deals (AP building single tenant buildings for the government) so you're correct, nobody but the GSA really cared or paid attention to how or when those deals unfolded. As you must know, GSA deals are what AP has primarily developed over the last 10-15 years. His only two completed local deals had mixed results. The 4-story green hills office building was beautifully designed and sold for a very attractive price. However, Palmer Plaza was slow to lease up and never really set the world on fire. To this day it isn't thought of as a top tier class a building. Though he's tried to sell it a few times it's been reported that buyer interest was cool when it was marketed. My point in mentioning this is that, contrary to what you seem to imply, there is nothing on AP's resume that would suggest that WES is a typical type of deal for him to be expected to easily execute. It's probably 2-3 times the size of anything he's completed, he's never developed either a hotel or a condo, or even an office project with ground floor retail or restaurants. Quite a lot of firsts to conquer let alone conquer them all in one project without phasing. None of this, of course, means he won't pull it off but I don't think any point I've raised (today or prior) is unfair to offer to those following the WES progress and trying to sort out how, when and whether things can be expected to unfold.

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Jeeper12 Hamlet

Jeeper12

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Posted
Thursday afternoon after 5, and I have a question.

With all due respect to all, a "compelling case" .........for what ?

I'm serious; a "compelling case"? Compelling? A case at all? Anything other than pure speculation, and motivation for this position comes from what? I'm at a loss. Sure, there are bridges that have collapsed, planes that have crashed, developments that have tanked, but what do those things have in common with this expensive site in Nashville?

Guys, I sense I have witnessed a lot more projects being built along West End Avenue during the last 30 years than some have. Why? Because for one, I don't see any other vacant open pit mines left along the high dollar West End corridor, or in downtown Nashville. Tying to build a compelling case that this may be the first one is a tough sell, especially knowing the three firms publically identified to date (Palmer/Bovis/Intercontinental).

I wouldn't suggest that "only an idiot" would think this is not a project at this stage of the game, but the "compelling case" appears so strong in favor of the project, I think it would be more productive to ponder ones own navel than to speculate on what else might really be happening on this site. Ha, sorry for the sarcasm. I guess I have been on too many construction sites.

This one looks like a construction site, walks like a construction site, and quacks like one too............

I want to be invited to the crow fest when this project is done, not to eat, but to watch. Someone please put me on the invitation list.

Realistically hopeful, the cup is half full, life is good, Nashville is wonderful,

Midtown

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MTSUBlueraider86 Hamlet

MTSUBlueraider86

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The figures I quoted were from the Nashville City Paper. Initially, one tower was supposed to be 15 stories and the other 25. Now IMHO I do not think the condo portion will be in the final project. I think the hotel will be 15 stories and the office tower 20 stories. The condo market around the country has bottomed out. I do not think Nashville can support another condo project for the very wealthy. Encore is not sold out, neiher is Viridian. Signature Tower has some doubts, and no condos have been sold for the Westin Condo portion. IMHO future residents of the city are going to be living in townhomes and renovated houses within the urban core. That is more realistic and what a city really needs. We need families living in houses and couples living in reasonably priced townhomes along the perimeter of the CBD. On that theme, the hotel boom is also about to end soon. We have The Hampton Suites, Indigo Hotel(s), Homewood Suites, Possibly the Westin, Possibly the Intercontinental, Possibly the Kimpton. How many more hotels can Nashville support? The Hampton, Indigo's, and Homewood Suites have already added almost 1000 rooms. How many more can we fill with a city occupancy rate of around 70%?

In regards to the WES office tower, this must be a spec building because the clients are just not there. The CBD has an vacancy rate of about 12%. When Suntrust leaves it's current building, that building will be about 50% vacant. When Bass, Berry, and Sims leave Amsouth for their new tower, that building will be about 70% vacant.

Who is moving into these new office towers? Who is going to stay in all of these new hotels? Who is going to buy a condo at 750 a foot? I will have more space in my suburban house than some people paying over $1,000,000.00 to buy a condo in Signature! Realistically, who will give up what they currently have in a house for these condo's? There is a house being rehabed on Shelby that will sell for $350,000.00 and it has over 3000 square feet plus a 1/4 yard. How much would that cost in WES?

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titanhog Metropolitan Area

titanhog

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Posted
The figures I quoted were from the Nashville City Paper. Initially, one tower was supposed to be 15 stories and the other 25. Now IMHO I do not think the condo portion will be in the final project. I think the hotel will be 15 stories and the office tower 20 stories. The condo market around the country has bottomed out. I do not think Nashville can support another condo project for the very wealthy. Encore is not sold out, neiher is Viridian. Signature Tower has some doubts, and no condos have been sold for the Westin Condo portion. IMHO future residents of the city are going to be living in townhomes and renovated houses within the urban core. That is more realistic and what a city really needs. We need families living in houses and couples living in reasonably priced townhomes along the perimeter of the CBD. On that theme, the hotel boom is also about to end soon. We have The Hampton Suites, Indigo Hotel(s), Homewood Suites, Possibly the Westin, Possibly the Intercontinental, Possibly the Kimpton. How many more hotels can Nashville support? The Hampton, Indigo's, and Homewood Suites have already added almost 1000 rooms. How many more can we fill with a city occupancy rate of around 70%?

In regards to the WES office tower, this must be a spec building because the clients are just not there. The CBD has an vacancy rate of about 12%. When Suntrust leaves it's current building, that building will be about 50% vacant. When Bass, Berry, and Sims leave Amsouth for their new tower, that building will be about 70% vacant.

Who is moving into these new office towers? Who is going to stay in all of these new hotels? Who is going to buy a condo at 750 a foot? I will have more space in my suburban house than some people paying over $1,000,000.00 to buy a condo in Signature! Realistically, who will give up what they currently have in a house for these condo's? There is a house being rehabed on Shelby that will sell for $350,000.00 and it has over 3000 square feet plus a 1/4 yard. How much would that cost in WES?

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MTSUBlueraider86 Hamlet

MTSUBlueraider86

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I never said this was a done deal in what has been reported as a done deal, I am saying they are building something, but it may not be was was originally reported as such. AP has not exactly been forthcoming with information, and if one were to read the financial news, one would see that all areas I alluded too were having difficulties.

The real estate market around the country is having problems with forclosures and such. How are banks supposed to have money to lend with all of the defaulted loans? I may say something one week based on one thing I read, and then say something else based on other factors the following week, but please do not ask me if I took my meds this morning without having the requisite knowledge of where I base the opinion.

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Jeeper12 Hamlet

Jeeper12

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I have to tell you...you have completely turned my head in circles. A few weeks ago, you were posting on all of these threads saying "done deal" and talking with such conviction about how positive you were each and every project was a "go"...now you've totally flipped, condo boom is dead, too many hotels, too expensive, etc, etc...and that the WES will be a shorter office building only...and on the Siggy thread you're talking about how there's no hotel sign up so it there must be problems with the hotel component. You came to these conclusions by just reading the WSJ article about the condo boom bust?

Did you forget to take your meds today or something?

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titanhog Metropolitan Area

titanhog

Posted
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Remember this post ?

QUOTE(blueraider86 @ Jun 13 2007, 06:46 PM)

WTF? Do you realize how many laws and codes would be broken by leaving a hole that size? Do you reaize how expensive excavation is? If someone still has doubts about this project now, than I am shocked! BTW Sigtower starts July 7th. Mark my words. It is a definate go. Period.

Jeeper wrote : blueraider, you're starting to remind me of that reednavy guy that posted 10 times a day for 2-3 months and then disappeared into the night. Your not going to vanish on us come August are you ?

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Midtown Unincorporated Area

Midtown

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Hi guys,

The reason I have posted some information on the West End Summit thread here, is because I think it's a great project, and thought it would be appropriate to say so on the WES thread. Shame on me for being positive, and shame on me for thinking for one fleeting moment that some people may simply be playing with a half deck.

Now that I'm being scolded (and lectured) for my enthusiasm on the West End Summit thread, I am reminded of the old saying, "never wrestle with a pig, because you both get dirty and the pig enjoys it".

Not referring to anyone here as a pig, but I am referring to the useless engagement of intellectual hot air for no apparent reason, and I think I would be doing that if I engaged with further discussion on some of these issues. When I want to find out how poorly the West End Summit project is going, I won't look at the construction site or listen to anything coming from any reputable company, or trust in the integrity of their personnel, I will dial up this forum and let the more informed people out there tell me how bad this project is really going to be, and how so-and-so can't put together a deal.

I really never realized how bad we really have it here in Nashville. Thanks for clearing it up guys, silly me, it's just now starting to become crystall clear.

Midtown

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monsoon Gigalopolis

monsoon

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Posted

Folks please calm down. A lot of this was instigated by a forumer that was previously banned from here for making disgusting remarks and for threatening us. He has been re-banned and hopefully this will be the end of it.

Please discuss the merits of this project without making it personal.

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Jeeper12 Hamlet

Jeeper12

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Posted

Last night I was reading, Fortunes, Fiddles & Fried Chicken, a terrific book by Bill Carey on the history of business in Nashville. One chapter covered the development of the Vanderbilt Hotel and Plaza office building and I couldn't help but think of WES.

Apparently, the developer had some pre-leasing on the office building and was 2/3rds occupied when it opened in 1984. However, the hotel was another matter. The developer, Jim Caden (developing Rythym today) is quoted as saying: "I remember having to rent rooms for up to 50% less than what we thought we would have gotten". A few years later the project eventually declared bankruptcy causing all the equity investors, including Jack Massey and Tommy Frist to lose 90% of their original investment. Loews eventually purchased it out of bankruptcy and reflagged the property.

I realize that history doesn't always repeat itself but I can't help but wonder whether AP's projections are as rosy as Caden's were back then. Caden sure had a helluva lot better location IMO with his site directly across from Vandy and backing up to the hospitals and Elliston. Personally, I think AP would have been better to plan on a redevlopment of the site after Beaman and Reed relocate to a more modern location. Granted that may never happen but that's also the fact here that makes the attractiveness of this project so limited since not much can be expected to occur around it anytime soon.

I think AP sees more potential at that location than is there but if he can pull it off he obviously deserves all the glory and riches that would result from it being a success. On the other hand, if he suffers the same fate as Caden, it will take a lot of GSA leases (his bread and butter) to cover the enormous losses.

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Hankster Town

Hankster

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Posted
Thanks for the good words. I have not seen much action lately, as we're getting sort of used to feeling the ground shake in this neighborhood. I was sitting at Midtown Cafe for lunch the other day and the blasting could be felt through the floor.

MT

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