Charlotte MLB Team Speculation

[Take2]

22 hours ago, kayman said:

Charlotte is growing like kudzu these days and positioning the region to be the sports & entertainment hub of both Carolinas. 

  Charlotte achieved sports and entertainment hub of the Carolinas many kany years ago imo. I get what you're saying though..

[Durhamite]

14 hours ago, kermit said:

The Southeast (NC and SC in particular) has a huge historic connection to baseball. While we never had much major league history (but very good representation at all levels of the Negro Leagues), baseball was THE primary form of entertainment in the mill villages of the region (every mill had a touring team that played in the loosely labeled Textile Leagues). This history of lots of local teams eventually morphed into NC’s high density of (mostly) well-attended minor-league teams now. Migration has diluted this culture, but its fair to say that nearly every Southerner's grandpaw had some type of strong connection to baseball (I had three relatives that played textile league ball, one of those made it to the Durham Bulls in the 1920s) and baseball was discussed at the dinner table regularly. This historic attachment has faded in the modern era, but I think enough of it remains that a new MLB team in NC would outperform attendance expectations.

The region's (well North Carolina's) attachment to Basketball didn’t really emerge until the early-mid 20th c, and the region's (Georgia, Florida and Alabama) affinity for football is a slightly more recent phenomena.

The Knights (and all of AAA baseball) use robo umps. It is not noticeable to causal fans at the ballpark.

Totally agree, the Carolina’s (Charlotte) have to be at the top of the relo and expansion list given the history, strong business climate for sponsorship, and growing population.  Growing up down east NC, Baseball was the most popular sport. From Bad News Bears (Little League) to Bull Durham.  There is a reason Michael Jordan’s favorite sport was baseball, it was a way of life..tobacco and baseball..,that was my summer with fields and stands packed.  Of course things have changed, but that spirit still exists. 
 

I am sure there were similar environments in most parts of the US back then, but Southeastern NC’s passion for baseball was off the charts.  I followed the Big Red Machine (Cincinnati Reds) like a home team….still know every player and position, stats, etc .  Football and basketball gained momentum and took over as I progressed through high school but baseball still has a strong culture and following in the Carolinas.  

[teeg]

1 hour ago, Durhamite said:

I followed the Big Red Machine (Cincinnati Reds) like a home team….still know every player and position, stats, etc .   

That's really interesting to me  -- was there any particular reason why you followed the Reds over other teams?  I have been wondering if there was some historic tie between Cincinnati and N.C. that was before my time, like a TV or radio station down here that broadcast all of those games, because I have never understood why Charlotte has the Reds on its MLB blackout list (plus Atlanta, Washington and Baltimore, with the others not making much sense given how much closer we are to atl)

[smeagolsfree]

16 hours ago, elrodvt said:

Also meant to say Charlotte kind of "packages" NC and SC together whereas I'm not sure Nashville has influence outside of Tennessee.

Nashville's Metro has a lot of influence on Southern KY and Northern AL. More so on KY. A lot of folks work in Nashville and drive to Nashville as the Metro extends to the Kentucky border. The TV market extends a good ways into KY as well up into Bowling Green. While Clarksville is not part of the Nashville Metro that is questioned by many as it has its own Metro area and is linked closely to Nashville with many residents working in Nashville. The main reason there is that many people work at Fort Cambell and commute to the base even though the HQ is in KY the majority of the base is in TN.

Huntsville AL is a good-sized city of 217k, but many folks from Huntsville come to Nashville to shop and play as the TV market extends into Huntsville even though H'ville has their own TV market. Huntsville is probably tied closer to Nashville than Birmingham in many ways. If folks in Huntsville want to go to the city, they go to Nashville and not the Ham. But they will go to college in state for obvious reasons. Alabama has zero pro sports teams, and many follow the Nashville teams in N AL.

[jednc]

23 hours ago, elrodvt said:

I think where college teams are has roughly 0 relevance.

The southeast is pretty miserable for baseball unless you're only looking at atl. Fl teams are always struggling. DC isn't SE.

Plus, they'd need a dome. Knight's numbers are inflated by corp no show seats. Granted the white Sox keep their good players at AA until very close and thus the team is pretty boring and even though w-l doesn't matter in minors it does wear out the fans.

 

(The like button didn't have the emotion I wanted to express)

[kermit]

21 hours ago, teeg said:

That's really interesting to me  -- was there any particular reason why you followed the Reds over other teams?  I have been wondering if there was some historic tie between Cincinnati and N.C. that was before my time, like a TV or radio station down here that broadcast all of those games, because I have never understood why Charlotte has the Reds on its MLB blackout list (plus Atlanta, Washington and Baltimore, with the others not making much sense given how much closer we are to atl)

I too was a little kid in Durham who was a huge Big Red Machine fan, they were hard to resist and always on TV -- by far the biggest thing in baseball at the time. Plus the Braves were just horrendous then. It was also in the days before inter league play so they were frequently playing the Braves.

Edited July 5, 2023 by kermit

[elrodvt]

If you're confused by my comment about the relevance of college ball in the area then find info showing mlb teams locate to be near college teams. Same with ancient history, Brooklyn dodgers might have a question or two. If you want to be fan boys that's cool. I'd love a team downtown too! But don't say the counter points confused you?

All these teams want is a free stadium, a guaranteed strong fan base, and big $ sports network. Plus a dome or good weather. I think we're borderline on the weather.

Tampa and Miami can't consistently draw. ATL built up by establishing a winning tradition. Which is really hard and takes a long time. Nothing else in SE. They also were an established team not an expansion.

Charlotte isn't drawing well for AAA anymore from what I see (butts in seats) although the product they put out is clearly part of the problem so it's no proof point either way. We did lose a NBA franchise which makes one nervous though unsure if that is predictive. Hornets are not drawing but their product is terrible too.

Thanks for the info on robot umps in AAA. I'm surprised it's not obvious when used. I really need to go check it out.

[carolinaboy]

3 hours ago, elrodvt said:

If you're confused by my comment about the relevance of college ball in the area then find info showing mlb teams locate to be near college teams. Same with ancient history, Brooklyn dodgers might have a question or two. If you want to be fan boys that's cool. I'd love a team downtown too! But don't say the counter points confused you?

All these teams want is a free stadium, a guaranteed strong fan base, and big $ sports network. Plus a dome or good weather. I think we're borderline on the weather.

Tampa and Miami can't consistently draw. ATL built up by establishing a winning tradition. Which is really hard and takes a long time. Nothing else in SE. They also were an established team not an expansion.

Charlotte isn't drawing well for AAA anymore from what I see (butts in seats) although the product they put out is clearly part of the problem so it's no proof point either way. We did lose a NBA franchise which makes one nervous though unsure if that is predictive. Hornets are not drawing but their product is terrible too.

Thanks for the info on robot umps in AAA. I'm surprised it's not obvious when used. I really need to go check it out.

In my original post my point about college baseball being popular in NC and SC (as well as all of the southeast) wasn't to say MLB would look at college baseball popularity or college location as a determining factor to locate a team. My point was that there are many, many baseball fans in NC and SC that probably would attend pro games in Charlotte, which MLB would look at in terms of determining suitable expansion/relocation cities.

[Durhamite]

20 hours ago, kermit said:

I too was a little kid in Durham who was a huge Big Red Machine fan, they were hard to resist and always on TV -- by far the biggest thing in baseball at the time. Plus the Braves were just horrendous then. It was also in the days before inter league play so they were frequently playing the Braves.

Yes sir…never did follow the Braves, still don’t.

[Durhamite]

20 hours ago, elrodvt said:

If you're confused by my comment about the relevance of college ball in the area then find info showing mlb teams locate to be near college teams. Same with ancient history, Brooklyn dodgers might have a question or two. If you want to be fan boys that's cool. I'd love a team downtown too! But don't say the counter points confused you?

All these teams want is a free stadium, a guaranteed strong fan base, and big $ sports network. Plus a dome or good weather. I think we're borderline on the weather.

Tampa and Miami can't consistently draw. ATL built up by establishing a winning tradition. Which is really hard and takes a long time. Nothing else in SE. They also were an established team not an expansion.

Charlotte isn't drawing well for AAA anymore from what I see (butts in seats) although the product they put out is clearly part of the problem so it's no proof point either way. We did lose a NBA franchise which makes one nervous though unsure if that is predictive. Hornets are not drawing but their product is terrible too.

Thanks for the info on robot umps in AAA. I'm surprised it's not obvious when used. I really need to go check it out.

Over complicating things.  Any team nowadays might get moved for any number of reasons which makes acquiring a team irrelevant.  Charlotte can support a MLB team and should pursue one.  
 

The original Hornets had tremendous support, practically sold out every home game for a decade or so. This was a case of an ownership mess that soured fan support.  The new Hornets average over 17000 a game..,.what do you mean not drawing?

[elrodvt]

I had seasons and last year the place was half empty except when big draw teams came. As with the knights everyone pumps up attendence in various ways. They def don't report the actual numbers. 

[Durhamite]

2 hours ago, elrodvt said:

I had seasons and last year the place was half empty except when big draw teams came. As with the knights everyone pumps up attendence in various ways. They def don't report the actual numbers. 

Surely you jest.   That's the modus operandi for most of the league's asides a few teams that have cultivated that kind of a following, even then, they get a slacker draw day/night.   I am avid NBA fans and some years, based on the fan attendance visual, I wondered if anybody in Cleveland knew they had a team (especially the down years).    Point is Charlotte can support a MLB team in my opinion and do think Raleigh or Charlotte will get one within the next 10 years (irregardless of what any city does...probably not even relevant, it all comes down to ownership).

[elrodvt]

I don't understand why you think I jest. I've had two Season lowers for 5+ years. This last season was really, really dead and I can't imagine it can carry on like this with new debt taken on. It's going to be interesting if they can actually increase prices in that environment. I don't know all the ways they pump up the numbers but I can promise u, just like with the knights, they are not reporting the actual asses in seats. Like I said tho I don't know how applicable that is to MLB attendance projections but it would surely make them think twice. I also had seasons to the knights and had people back then tell me I didn't know what I was talking about. People who go to an occasional weekend special event night and think that means their up on the teams attendance for the year. 

We don't know what's happening with the NFL stadium plans right? Plus, The hornets now seem on the same trajectory they were on when they left. Losing losing losing... 

I believe that would all weigh on investors minds in a negative way. Are there enough positives over the contenders to still win? I'm crossing my fingers but would bet against it.

Hope you don't mind one other diversion that will make a stadium deal difficult so somewhat on topic. 

Despite being a huge fan I'm not sure I would vote for a significant pkg to bring a team here. Our transit systems falling apart and we can't seem to build enough crosswalks to keep people from being run down. That's job 1. Saw a young girl sprinting with a carriage across Park Rd to get from atrium pineville to the bus stop. I stopped 2 lanes with my car and someone else grabbed 2 more or I don't know how she would ever get there. Total lack of concern for the safety of our lower income residents. Lots of mad drivers eager to go give the finger to someone who needs to get their baby home. 

 

 

[smeagolsfree]

For those of you that have access to the Nashville Business Journal which are probably few, Hugh McColl weighed in on why Charlotte needs to get an MLB team before Nashville.

Hugh McColl weighs in on odds of MLB expansion team in Charlotte, Nashville - Nashville Business Journal (bizjournals.com)

A few highlights

Charlotte, despite no known campaign for MLB or even an informal investor group, has become prominent in speculative discussions of prospective expansion sites. 

In Nashville, Music City Baseball is leading the effort to bring an expansion to the city. In November, the group signed an agreement with Tennessee State University to begin assessing an over 100-acre tract of its campus for an MLB stadium for a possible Nashville Stars team.

“I think that pro baseball requires a big population mass to make it profitable,” McColl told CBJ. "And whether we have that population, that mass at the moment, I don’t know."

The former bank executive offered an opinion on the forecast of Nashville as a heavy favorite: “I think that we would be a better town than Nashville. Just being honest, where I think we grow faster, [with a] bigger corporate market. And, you know, we’ve got more big companies for sponsorship, and we are a town that sits on the border of the Carolinas.”

Nashville seems to figure into every economic development comparison and recruiting discussion involving Charlotte these days. In case you were wondering, their respective minor-league baseball teams are both among the most popular in the nation.

“If Mr. McColl called the commissioner, he would answer that phone call,” he said.

[Durhamite]

On 7/6/2023 at 11:34 PM, elrodvt said:

I don't understand why you think I jest. I've had two Season lowers for 5+ years. This last season was really, really dead and I can't imagine it can carry on like this with new debt taken on. It's going to be interesting if they can actually increase prices in that environment. I don't know all the ways they pump up the numbers but I can promise u, just like with the knights, they are not reporting the actual asses in seats. Like I said tho I don't know how applicable that is to MLB attendance projections but it would surely make them think twice. I also had seasons to the knights and had people back then tell me I didn't know what I was talking about. People who go to an occasional weekend special event night and think that means their up on the teams attendance for the year. 

We don't know what's happening with the NFL stadium plans right? Plus, The hornets now seem on the same trajectory they were on when they left. Losing losing losing... 

I believe that would all weigh on investors minds in a negative way. Are there enough positives over the contenders to still win? I'm crossing my fingers but would bet against it.

Hope you don't mind one other diversion that will make a stadium deal difficult so somewhat on topic. 

Despite being a huge fan I'm not sure I would vote for a significant pkg to bring a team here. Our transit systems falling apart and we can't seem to build enough crosswalks to keep people from being run down. That's job 1. Saw a young girl sprinting with a carriage across Park Rd to get from atrium pineville to the bus stop. I stopped 2 lanes with my car and someone else grabbed 2 more or I don't know how she would ever get there. Total lack of concern for the safety of our lower income residents. Lots of mad drivers eager to go give the finger to someone who needs to get their baby home. 

 

 

It’s ok, this is exactly what everybody on this board expects from you, doom and gloom. I’ll you use a baseball Yogi-ism that fits your consistent negative narrative about Charlotte.  Even if Charlotte lived up to your unrealistic expectations, and  became this vibrant hoppin downtown…your Yogi-ism sunny disposition would be “nobody goes uptown anymore, it’s too crowded”.

[elrodvt]

Sure, I admit I generally feel motivated to comment when I am discouraged about something. Kind of like online reviews in that respect. Do enjoy taking the contrary position in an argument. 

I'm also the one trying to live an urban lifestyle; using public transit, living in uptown (formerly) and having seasons to knights and hornets. Would you feel better if I posted constantly about my great experiences with the Greenway and what a great job I think they're doing? That'd balance out the karma or something? 

It'd be a better convo if you replied substantively about post content rather than a personal attack. What are you adding? Why not dispute the hornet's attendance I mentioned with facts or your personal observations? Same for knights.  Same for solving the the lack of crosswalks being a lot more important goal for the city than funding a sports park for the 1%.

 

[Durhamite]

12 hours ago, elrodvt said:

Sure, I admit I generally feel motivated to comment when I am discouraged about something. Kind of like online reviews in that respect. Do enjoy taking the contrary position in an argument. 

I'm also the one trying to live an urban lifestyle; using public transit, living in uptown (formerly) and having seasons to knights and hornets. Would you feel better if I posted constantly about my great experiences with the Greenway and what a great job I think they're doing? That'd balance out the karma or something? 

It'd be a better convo if you replied substantively about post content rather than a personal attack. What are you adding? Why not dispute the hornet's attendance I mentioned with facts or your personal observations? Same for knights.  Same for solving the the lack of crosswalks being a lot more important goal for the city than funding a sports park for the 1%.

 

Not really since the topic is about Charlottes potential or speculation to support MLB!  Not urban lifestyle or transit or who gives a damn about where you live or lived.  Not a personal attack, a simple observation.  
 

I simply agreed with Hugh McColl, all of the elements are there to support MLB.   I would put much more stock in his anecdotal perspective than yours…again, not a personal attack.

Edited July 11, 2023 by Durhamite

[elrodvt]

Now you seem confused even about what you wrote. Your post was a general attack on posting negative comments. You switched to discussing uptown living and lack of activity. Then you took the liberty of guessing at my outlook on life and then denigrating me based on that. If those aren't personal comments what are? 

If you can't see there could be some relevance to attendance #s for other sports teams in Charlotte in a decision whether to locate another pro franchise here then ok don't discuss with me. Likewise if you can't see how issues with funding for our transit system could compete with a decision to spend public funds on a ballpark also don't discuss it then. Eyes wide shut right? 

I'm sure others are bored by this spat so finis. 

I was mainly interested in opinions on whether historical attendance #s in other sports would affect a decision to locate here. I think it would. But have nothing to back that up. It's really hard to even get attendance numbers. Only various inflated numbers are available never gate. Maybe they're available to people in the biz though? 

The rest of the discussion is all kind of ephemeral and just feelings. 

[Take2]

On 7/6/2023 at 11:34 PM, elrodvt said:

I don't understand why you think I jest. I've had two Season lowers for 5+ years. This last season was really, really dead and I can't imagine it can carry on like this with new debt taken on. It's going to be interesting if they can actually increase prices in that environment. I don't know all the ways they pump up the numbers but I can promise u, just like with the knights, they are not reporting the actual asses in seats. Like I said tho I don't know how applicable that is to MLB attendance projections but it would surely make them think twice. I also had seasons to the knights and had people back then tell me I didn't know what I was talking about. People who go to an occasional weekend special event night and think that means their up on the teams attendance for the year. 

We don't know what's happening with the NFL stadium plans right? Plus, The hornets now seem on the same trajectory they were on when they left. Losing losing losing... 

I believe that would all weigh on investors minds in a negative way. Are there enough positives over the contenders to still win? I'm crossing my fingers but would bet against it.

Hope you don't mind one other diversion that will make a stadium deal difficult so somewhat on topic. 

Despite being a huge fan I'm not sure I would vote for a significant pkg to bring a team here. Our transit systems falling apart and we can't seem to build enough crosswalks to keep people from being run down. That's job 1. Saw a young girl sprinting with a carriage across Park Rd to get from atrium pineville to the bus stop. I stopped 2 lanes with my car and someone else grabbed 2 more or I don't know how she would ever get there. Total lack of concern for the safety of our lower income residents. Lots of mad drivers eager to go give the finger to someone who needs to get their baby home. 

 

 

It's already been pointed out that the original Hornets team left because the owner, George Shinn, didn't get his way. Of course eventually the city did what it wanted to do and built Spectrum Center even though Charlotte citizens voted against it. 

Anywho the Hornets aren't goin anywhere. The Panthers aren't going anywhere.  And Charlotte will land an MLB team. Period. 

Charlotte has the Fortune 500s, the American hub, and $$$$$$. 

[jednc]

On 7/11/2023 at 12:20 PM, elrodvt said:

Now you seem confused even about what you wrote. Your post was a general attack on posting negative comments. You switched to discussing uptown living and lack of activity. Then you took the liberty of guessing at my outlook on life and then denigrating me based on that. If those aren't personal comments what are? 

If you can't see there could be some relevance to attendance #s for other sports teams in Charlotte in a decision whether to locate another pro franchise here then ok don't discuss with me. Likewise if you can't see how issues with funding for our transit system could compete with a decision to spend public funds on a ballpark also don't discuss it then. Eyes wide shut right? 

I'm sure others are bored by this spat so finis. 

I was mainly interested in opinions on whether historical attendance #s in other sports would affect a decision to locate here. I think it would. But have nothing to back that up. It's really hard to even get attendance numbers. Only various inflated numbers are available never gate. Maybe they're available to people in the biz though? 

The rest of the discussion is all kind of ephemeral and just feelings. 

[Durhamite]

On 7/11/2023 at 12:20 PM, elrodvt said:

Now you seem confused even about what you wrote. Your post was a general attack on posting negative comments. You switched to discussing uptown living and lack of activity. Then you took the liberty of guessing at my outlook on life and then denigrating me based on that. If those aren't personal comments what are? 

If you can't see there could be some relevance to attendance #s for other sports teams in Charlotte in a decision whether to locate another pro franchise here then ok don't discuss with me. Likewise if you can't see how issues with funding for our transit system could compete with a decision to spend public funds on a ballpark also don't discuss it then. Eyes wide shut right? 

I'm sure others are bored by this spat so finis. 

I was mainly interested in opinions on whether historical attendance #s in other sports would affect a decision to locate here. I think it would. But have nothing to back that up. It's really hard to even get attendance numbers. Only various inflated numbers are available never gate. Maybe they're available to people in the biz though? 

The rest of the discussion is all kind of ephemeral and just feelings. 

Huh? Neither transit or urban planning has anything to do with MLB speculation in Charlotte.   You injected your crazy anecdotes about attendance, etc, not me. 
 

It’s all good, MLB will eventually arrive in the Carolina’s soon, more than likely Charlotte.  Don’t think baseball expansion committees aren’t aware of the growth and business environment.  Anything and everything could change in a decade but based on current projections, all systems are go.

[elrodvt]

My point was there will need to be a debate about public funding of a stadium vs. executing the transit plan. It seems to me that both sidewalks, busses and trains are all suffering from lack of support. If we get some rich billionaire who will build his own stadium great. Seems unlikely though. 

Said several times that using other sports attendance numbers to predict MLB attendance in the same city is an interesting discussion and I don't personally know if that's predictive or not. I would think you could see how it very well could be though? The anecdotes about attendence are all I have to go on since none of the sports teams, to my knowledge, actually publish attendence numbers. When I was going to Knight's games all season it was routine for them to talk about sell out crowds when in actuality it was maybe 1/3 full. Same for Hornets (well on second thought, not as bad really). 

Clearly contrary opinions aren't welcome here, especially by you, so not much point in continuing to try and discuss when all you've got are insults and platitudes. It is possible to both want a MLB team in Charlotte and discuss barriers. 

[Durhamite]

1 hour ago, elrodvt said:

My point was there will need to be a debate about public funding of a stadium vs. executing the transit plan. It seems to me that both sidewalks, busses and trains are all suffering from lack of support. If we get some rich billionaire who will build his own stadium great. Seems unlikely though. 

Said several times that using other sports attendance numbers to predict MLB attendance in the same city is an interesting discussion and I don't personally know if that's predictive or not. I would think you could see how it very well could be though? The anecdotes about attendence are all I have to go on since none of the sports teams, to my knowledge, actually publish attendence numbers. When I was going to Knight's games all season it was routine for them to talk about sell out crowds when in actuality it was maybe 1/3 full. Same for Hornets (well on second thought, not as bad really). 

Clearly contrary opinions aren't welcome here, especially by you, so not much point in continuing to try and discuss when all you've got are insults and platitudes. It is possible to both want a MLB team in Charlotte and discuss barriers. 

Because you're conflating two separate things.  The MLB Baseball Expansion Committee already has the data and know the best possible places for expansion - you're wasting your time as due diligence has been done.  Of course, barriers exist (this isn't witness breaking news) but that's with any expansion team, anywhere (stadium, ownership, sponsorship, etc). - which is really a rehash of the same barrier discussions during NBA/Charlotte, NFL Charlotte (Carolinas) and now MLB.  I'm not sure a back/forth is going to generate any new information about barriers, I guess.  MLB may elect to go in a completely different direction, but Charlotte is high on the list.   

Charlotte MLB Expansion: All you need to know about rumored baseball team in North Carolina (sportskeeda.com)

Ranking the 7 Most Likely Destinations for MLB's Next City After A's-to-Vegas Move | News, Scores, Highlights, Stats, and Rumors | Bleacher Report

[15895]

Even after nearly 2 decades (of my 3 decade life) of imminently being high on MLB list, & any moment we’ll get it.

After watching years long lawsuit to stop the Knights stadium because MLB is just around the corner. It’s still fun to repeat the same thing with the same odds and the same imminence year after year after year  Any day now.

[I actually do find material updates interesting, but if people think it won’t happen, or skeptical or noting barriers/challenges… this is a discussion board. It’s not like we can just talk an MLB team into existence…]

On 3/25/2005 at 9:55 AM, atlrvr said:

I don't think there is much chance within the next 15 years, barring someone with a lot of cash to move and existing team here and to pay for the stadium. Charlotte doesn't have the pop. yet to support three teams.

Atlrvr called it. Pass the man a craft beer. 

Edited July 19, 2023 by AirNostrumMAD

[J-Rob]

18 hours ago, AirNostrumMAD said:

barring someone with a lot of cash to move and existing team here and to pay for the stadium

This is the big reason I don't see it happening. There is no billionaire in Charlotte's corner actively wooing a team (that we are aware of).  Other cities have years' long recruitment efforts in place, alongside potential ownership teams.

Edited July 20, 2023 by J-Rob