Columbia Economic Notes

[krazeeboi]

Great points Spartan. Also I will say that Columbia feels a little more urban because it has three interstates, the good grid system (as Spartan has pointed out), and two bustling downtown districts besides Main Street. To me Greenville feels the smallest because of only one interstate (not counting spurs) and less density. But in actuality, the Big Three aren't that much different in terms of urbanity; they just all have different kinds of urbanity.

[CorgiMatt]

Columbia does have the biggest 'feel' to it, but that is not to say that Charleston and Greenville do not. Charleston has the 'hustle and bustle' of a much larger city, particularly on the penninsula. But its mostly confined to that area.

Most of the 'feel' comes from its physical appearance, particularly of its downtown/center city area.

Columbia has highrises, density, and a very strong grid system downtown that create a very strong visual appeal. For many people it is intimidating to drive in Columbia because it is so different from the rest of the state in that regard.

Charleston has the density of cities many times its size. No skyline to speak of, its irregular grid makes it intimidating to visitors because you never know for sure which road will not dead end into another road. Like I said before, Charleston has that hustle and bustle that you can't really describe. Its just there, and to walk around the city you know it.

Greenville has the skyline, though its not visible from many places, but it lacks the density of the other two. Its downtown area is not as large in area either. That said, Greenville probably has the brightest future.

A large part of this is because of walkablility.

Charleston is by far the most walkable city, which adds to the vibe and energy you feel while you are there. Columbia severely lacks walkibility, and is slightly intimidating to pedestrians. Greenville lies somewhere in between. It is much more walkable than Columbia, but not as much as Charleston.

This is all subjective of course.

It definitely is subjective. I don't find Columbia to be unwalkable at all, quite the opposite. Now that all downtown intersections have walk and don't walk signs that are very new and bright and have count-downs as in 20, 19, 18, 17 to let you know how much time you have to get across the street, we are set. The sidewalks are wide and not uneven from tree roots.

I don't believe Greenville has any brighter of a future than the other big cities in SC. Columbia's economy is so diverse and steady - always has been, always will be, and USC has stepped forward to lead the way from here on out. Even tourism is picking up in the Capital City.

Columbia feels bigger because it is. Not only is the grid huge in comparison to the others, but Columbia's metro area, as opposed to MSA is the only one in SC over 500,000 at 525,000, and the core-based MSA is 680,000+, about 100,000 more than any other in SC. And the inner city vibe is growing exponentially, month by month.

[The_sandlapper]

Michelin expansion too create 100 more jobs.

article

Edited December 11, 2005 by The_sandlapper

[Spartan]

It definitely is subjective. I don't find Columbia to be unwalkable at all, quite the opposite. Now that all downtown intersections have walk and don't walk signs that are very new and bright and have count-downs as in 20, 19, 18, 17 to let you know how much time you have to get across the street, we are set. The sidewalks are wide and not uneven from tree roots.

I don't believe Greenville has any brighter of a future than the other big cities in SC. Columbia's economy is so diverse and steady - always has been, always will be, and USC has stepped forward to lead the way from here on out. Even tourism is picking up in the Capital City.

Columbia feels bigger because it is. Not only is the grid huge in comparison to the others, but Columbia's metro area, as opposed to MSA is the only one in SC over 500,000 at 525,000, and the core-based MSA is 680,000+, about 100,000 more than any other in SC. And the inner city vibe is growing exponentially, month by month.

I didn't say Columbia was unwalkable. I walked it all the time when I lived there. But I could see visitors being somewhat intimidated by it.

I said Greenville's future is brightest becuase I see it has having the most potential to make the most progress towrards a more urban core. What I should ahve added is that I see Columbia and Charleston as being (far) ahead in that regard. So while Greenville would make the most advances, it has less to work with than the other two as it stands now.

I'm not tryin gto 'hate' on Greenville or anything. But you have to be willing to accept some truth.

What would make your point better, CorgiMatt is to compare Urban Areas. Columbia was 423,000 in 2000, compared to Greenville, which was like 325,000 or so.

The other side of this arguement is that Greenville is the heart of a metro of 1.1 million. You have to take that into consideration as well.

[waccamatt]

I didn't say Columbia was unwalkable. I walked it all the time when I lived there. But I could see visitors being somewhat intimidated by it.

I said Greenville's future is brightest becuase I see it has having the most potential to make the most progress towrards a more urban core. What I should ahve added is that I see Columbia and Charleston as being (far) ahead in that regard. So while Greenville would make the most advances, it has less to work with than the other two as it stands now.

I'm not tryin gto 'hate' on Greenville or anything. But you have to be willing to accept some truth.

What would make your point better, CorgiMatt is to compare Urban Areas. Columbia was 423,000 in 2000, compared to Greenville, which was like 325,000 or so.

The other side of this arguement is that Greenville is the heart of a metro of 1.1 million. You have to take that into consideration as well.

When you say "Greenville is the heart of a metro of 1.1 million" you are looking at a large geographic area with 3 central cities: Anderson, Greenville and Spartanburg. While Greenville is the largest of the three, it is hardly overwhelmingly so. Also, the census bureau changed the designation in 200 so the 3 cities are separate metros. The upstate is the most heavily populated region of the state, but I think it is a stretch to say that it is 1 metro.

[803metlife]

I read in today's paper that a group has begun promoting development of commuter rail service that would bring commuters from Newberry, Camden, Batesburg,Sumter and Leesville. A Newberry group has asked the Greater Columbia Chamber of Commerce to get behind the comuter rail movement. The council of governments feasibility study which should be completed in April, is looking 10 to 20yrs in the future for light rail/commuter car usage.

Edited December 11, 2005 by 803metlife

[The_sandlapper]

Lady's and Gentlemen Columbia has got on board. What section of the paper was the article in?

[803metlife]

Lady's and Gentlemen Columbia has got on board. What section of the paper was the article in?

Go to the business section of the states paper. Or just go to www.thestate.com and click on the business section

[Spartan]

Its about time!

[randy1]

It definitely is subjective. I don't find Columbia to be unwalkable at all, quite the opposite. Now that all downtown intersections have walk and don't walk signs that are very new and bright and have count-downs as in 20, 19, 18, 17 to let you know how much time you have to get across the street, we are set. The sidewalks are wide and not uneven from tree roots.

I don't believe Greenville has any brighter of a future than the other big cities in SC. Columbia's economy is so diverse and steady - always has been, always will be, and USC has stepped forward to lead the way from here on out. Even tourism is picking up in the Capital City.

Columbia feels bigger because it is. Not only is the grid huge in comparison to the others, but Columbia's metro area, as opposed to MSA is the only one in SC over 500,000 at 525,000, and the core-based MSA is 680,000+, about 100,000 more than any other in SC. And the inner city vibe is growing exponentially, month by month.

Columbia isn't the only one with metro over 500,000. Charleston's has been over 500,000 since '99

I didn't say Columbia was unwalkable. I walked it all the time when I lived there. But I could see visitors being somewhat intimidated by it.

I said Greenville's future is brightest becuase I see it has having the most potential to make the most progress towrards a more urban core. What I should ahve added is that I see Columbia and Charleston as being (far) ahead in that regard. So while Greenville would make the most advances, it has less to work with than the other two as it stands now.

I'm not tryin gto 'hate' on Greenville or anything. But you have to be willing to accept some truth.

What would make your point better, CorgiMatt is to compare Urban Areas. Columbia was 423,000 in 2000, compared to Greenville, which was like 325,000 or so.

The other side of this arguement is that Greenville is the heart of a metro of 1.1 million. You have to take that into consideration as well.

In 2000 U/A's were

Charleston 423,000

Columbia 420,000

Greenville 302,000

http://www.demographia.com/db-ua2000pop.htm

Edited December 11, 2005 by randy1

[CorgiMatt]

Its about time!

The Central Midlands Council of Governments has not just now gotten on board. They have been studying this and planning for years. As the article says, they recently took the plan to Newberry to get those people involved. I have been surprised in this thread to see comments about Columbia's missing the boat on this issue when I have read many local articles on it and have been aware of the planning that has been going on for years.

[CorgiMatt]

Columbia isn't the only one with metro over 500,000. Charleston's has been over 500,000 since '99

In 2000 U/A's were

Charleston 423,000

Columbia 420,000

Greenville 302,000

http://www.demographia.com/db-ua2000pop.htm

I think as many Aiken and Sumter county residents come to Columbia as Spartanburg and Anderson County residents go to Greenville.

I counted metro populations because that population is the bulk of what gives our cities an urban vibe, since so many people on city streets and in establishments at any given time live in the suburbs.

And I was thinking not only of bodies, but also land area. In Columbia the grid seems to go on forever to a first-time visitor, and you don't find yourself surrounded by strip shopping centers so quickly after leaving Main Street. Columbia isn't curvy and cobblestonish, and the clop, clop of horse hoofs isn't there to give it a nostalgic feel, except for one horse carriage that you might see once a month. Thus the larger feel.

[CorgiMatt]

Columbia isn't the only one with metro over 500,000. Charleston's has been over 500,000 since '99

In 2000 U/A's were

Charleston 423,000

Columbia 420,000

Greenville 302,000

http://www.demographia.com/db-ua2000pop.htm

Not Charleston's metro area. As of the 2000 it had 475,333. Its metropolitan statistical area population was over 500,000, but the MSA counts rural residents, not just urban and suburban residents. Columbia's metro area (just urban and suburban) in 2000 was 512,179. The MSA's population, counting the four counties added to the MSA in 2003, was over 600,000 and is now around 680,000 to be conservative. Greenville's metro area population in 2000 was 468,255. I don't remember what the MSA was, but it took a beating when Spartanburg and Anderson became their own MSA's and is smaller than Columbia's. I don't remember if it is smaller than Charleston's, but if it is it is not by much.

[Spartan]

I think as many Aiken and Sumter county residents come to Columbia as Spartanburg and Anderson County residents go to Greenville.

I counted metro populations because that population is the bulk of what gives our cities an urban vibe, since so many people on city streets and in establishments at any given time live in the suburbs.

And I was thinking not only of bodies, but also land area. In Columbia the grid seems to go on forever to a first-time visitor, and you don't find yourself surrounded by strip shopping centers so quickly after leaving Main Street. Columbia isn't curvy and cobblestonish, and the clop, clop of horse hoofs isn't there to give it a nostalgic feel, except for one horse carriage that you might see once a month. Thus the larger feel.

Nope.

Spartanburg and Anderson by far send more people to Greenville than Aiken and Sumter sent to Columbia.

Spartanburg and Anderson combined sent about 28,300 whereas Sumter and Aiken combined sent only around 3,300.

Not Charleston's metro area. As of the 2000 it had 475,333. Its metropolitan statistical area population was over 500,000, but the MSA counts rural residents, not just urban and suburban residents. Columbia's metro area (just urban and suburban) in 2000 was 512,179. The MSA's population, counting the four counties added to the MSA in 2003, was over 600,000 and is now around 680,000 to be conservative. Greenville's metro area population in 2000 was 468,255. I don't remember what the MSA was, but it took a beating when Spartanburg and Anderson became their own MSA's and is smaller than Columbia's. I don't remember if it is smaller than Charleston's, but if it is it is not by much.

The Greenville-Spartanburg-Anderson MSA had 990,000 or so in 2000. They split up Greenville, Spartanburg, and Anderson at the MSA level, but kept them together at the CSA level.

As was mentioned, the MSA numbers don't mean that much when comparing the size of cities. Urban area is definatley more reflective of that. However, I think when you look at the strength of a city you have to take into consideration the region it is in.

[Spartan]

Thats why we need people like you who know these things! You should have spoken up about this sooner.

I try to read The State as much as possible to get this kind of info, but I guess it has not been there on the days that I've read it. When I lived in Cola, I read it most every day, and I never saw information of this nature that I can recall, or else I would have posted it.

[The_sandlapper]

Yeah I didn't know this was a consideration either. Glad to see it has been something considered for awhile now though.

I used to think that rail wouldn't work in Columbia, but after my trip to Portland and seeing how there LRT worked in settings similar to suburban SE cities I changed my mind. I think it could fly in Cola as long as more living quarters keeo poping up in the core area.

[The_sandlapper]

Just out of curiousity how do you guys determine howmany people from one area ie Aiken, or Anderson travel to another ie Columbia, or Greenville. What stats are available?

[krazeeboi]

Also, while Greenville's UA in 2000 was ~302,000, this excludes the very nearby Mauldin-Simpsonville UA of ~75,000. This puts the Big Three of SC on practically even footing as far as population is concerned.

I REALLY wish that UA estimates were given annually along with metro and municipal estimates.

From what I remember, the new Upstate CSA designation is Greenville-Spartanburg-Seneca and not GSA. Am I accurate?

[Spartan]

Just out of curiousity how do you guys determine howmany people from one area ie Aiken, or Anderson travel to another ie Columbia, or Greenville. What stats are available?

The SC Employment Security Commission. Its data from the Census though, and its available for the entire nation.

http://www.sces.org/lmi/data/commuter/index.htm

Also, while Greenville's UA in 2000 was ~302,000, this excludes the very nearby Mauldin-Simpsonville UA of ~75,000. This puts the Big Three of SC on practically even footing as far as population is concerned.

I REALLY wish that UA estimates were given annually along with metro and municipal estimates.

From what I remember, the new Upstate CSA designation is Greenville-Spartanburg-Seneca and not GSA. Am I accurate?

No, its still Greenville-Spartanburg-Anderson.

The breakdown of the GSA CSA is like this:

Greenville-Spartanburg-Anderson, SC Combined Statistical Area

Anderson, SC Metropolitan Statistical Area

Gaffney, SC Micropolitan Statistical Area

Greenville, SC Metropolitan Statistical Area

Seneca, SC Micropolitan Statistical Area

Spartanburg, SC Metropolitan Statistical Area

Union, SC Micropolitan Statistical Area

[Mr.Marc]

Nope.

Spartanburg and Anderson by far send more people to Greenville than Aiken and Sumter sent to Columbia.

Spartanburg and Anderson combined sent about 28,300 whereas Sumter and Aiken combined sent only around 3,300.

That's very hard to believe. I don't have stats, but I'm a living witness as I am from Sumter. I know too many people that live in Sumter, but work and play in Columbia. Those stats have to be skewed.

[waccamatt]

That's very hard to believe. I don't have stats, but I'm a living witness as I am from Sumter. I know too many people that live in Sumter, but work and play in Columbia. Those stats have to be skewed.

I agree. I know quite a few people that live in Sumter County and work in Richland.

[sonofaque86]

Yeah, everytime I'm on my way to Hopkins on 378 around 5 traffic is kind of heavy. I think it's a good amount of commuters

[Northman]

The_sandlapper,

I agree that LTR is a great solution to a messy traffic issues. However, you point to the Portland LTR as an example and that may be a mistake. The reason Portland's LTR is such a success is the fact the regional government put a green belt around the city. For Cola to pull this off the regional governments would have to put a green belt in place. I do not see that as a reality looking at the real estate market in your area. I remember when Blythewood was in the sticks and the Clemson extension had nothing but scrub oak and pines for miles and miles. Cola and Richland County would have to find a way to slow the urban sprawl in the northeast side of town.

Having the Vista as a destination spot Cola definitely has an advantage for establishing a local LTR. Unfortunately, Cola is in competition with Charlotte and Atlanta for cultural destinations and both have hubs for air carriers. I do not see a LTR solution until the region can work together to promote a regional LTR system to supplement the smaller regional air carriers that are currently shuttling people along the I-85, I-77, I-26 and I-95 transportation corridors.

Edited December 13, 2005 by Northman

[Spartan]

Well, thats straight from the census so I dont konw what to tell you. Just keep in mind that there is only 1 good way for everyon in Sumter to get to Columbia, and that coudl make traffic seem like it is higher than it really is.

[digihoop]

Commuter rail idea gathers steam

http://www.thestate.com/mld/thestate/business/13380603.htm