Norfolk Light Rail and Transit

[mintscraft56]

On 7/11/2023 at 2:05 PM, baobabs727 said:

I love it. I use it all the time to go to DC.  I'm impressed  with the recently expanded service, as well.  

Newsflash:   Amtrak train outbound from Norfolk has derailed at Union Station, DC.

https://www.wavy.com/news/local-news/amtrak-train-originating-from-norfolk-derails-at-union-station/

 

 

Well that sucks, I was just there not long ago. 

Those DC pigeons are scary. They had no mercy for my Baja Fresh Burrito crumbs. 

[baobabs727]

9 hours ago, mintscraft56 said:

Well that sucks, I was just there not long ago. 

Those DC pigeons are scary. They had no mercy for my Baja Fresh Burrito crumbs. 

LOL. Thankfully, it was a low speed derailment ...in the tunnel near L'Enfant Plaza.

[walmartjamesbond]

On 7/8/2023 at 8:29 PM, vdogg said:

Denver has a great rail system. Walked from the hotel to the station (about a mile away, but a 30 min walk never hurt anyone) and was downtown in minutes. Runs all night too. Oh what could have been. The fact that we’re still stuck on our starter line is dumbfounding to me.  If only VB had extended it to the oceanfront…

Loved the RTD when I lived there!

[metalman]

I’m wondering if it derailed at a switch track not full engaged?  

[baobabs727]

On 7/14/2023 at 4:18 AM, metalman said:

I’m wondering if it derailed at a switch track not full engaged?  

According to one report I read, it was turning slightly in the tunnel and one of the trains' wheels "slipped" off the tracks. Freak accident. 

[baobabs727]

On 7/15/2023 at 3:50 PM, baobabs727 said:

According to one report I read, it was turning slightly in the tunnel and one of the trains' wheels "slipped" off the tracks. Freak accident. 

https://www.13newsnow.com/article/news/nation-world/amtrak-train-cars-derailment-washington-dc/291-9ac58d8c-f2d1-4710-93af-8892610c5477

https://www.wtkr.com/news/amtrak-train-derails-in-d-c-after-leaving-from-norfolk

Okay confused person,, low speed, tunnel, cars remain upright that tells you how slowly train was moving. I've  taken that route many times, and at that tunnel you're creeping.  

[metalman]

That was me.  Yea, I get it.  That was more Iike a “huh.”, not a “huh?”.   It’s probably easier to slip going slowly that fast., I’d imagine.  Taking that line for the first time last weekend-you’re right super slow going through that tunnel.  Hell…slow going going through DC in general.- pas the Spy museum and GSA building and such.   We’re taking it again in August.  Crossing fingers.  

[ONCE1stBlvd]

https://www.connectingchesapeake.com/

[Norf Native]

What about the rest of Chesapeake - Western Branch, Deep Creek.   I guess it’s a start at least.  

[lammius]

A light rail line using the bridge Amtrak uses from downtown Norfolk, then cuts over to the rail line that eventually ends up behind Sams and close to Dollar Tree HQ could work in this area.  However, the population density is so low along this corridor.  You'd need to be willing to upzone virtually all of it to encourage transit-focused development and population growth. 

Edited January 7 by lammius

[urbanlife]

This could really be a boon for South Norfolk, hopefully Chesapeake goes along with this and decided to add a second light rail line to the system.

[mintscraft56]

19 hours ago, lammius said:

A light rail line using the bridge Amtrak uses from downtown Norfolk, then cuts over to the rail line that eventually ends up behind Sams and close to Dollar Tree HQ could work in this area.  However, the population density is so low along this corridor.  You'd need to be willing to upzone virtually all of it to encourage transit-focused development and population growth. 

I dont think it matters. This is supposed to be a region wide light rail. Everyone no matter the population of the area (with exception to the country side ofc) should have access to car free transit in and out of the downtown district. 

This expansion will open new lanes for this whole project to change into. Especially since the Dollar Tree HQ is seemingly turning into a proto-downtown for Chesapeake. 

[baobabs727]

2 hours ago, mintscraft56 said:

I dont think it matters. This is supposed to be a region wide light rail. Everyone no matter the population of the area (with exception to the country side ofc) should have access to car free transit in and out of the downtown district. 

This expansion will open new lanes for this whole project to change into. Especially since the Dollar Tree HQ is seemingly turning into a proto-downtown for Chesapeake. 

Unfortunately, it does matter. Ridership projections figure prominently in the federal funding formulas. Low population density does not bode well for robust ridership projections, and without adequate anticipated ridership, the feds are not going to commit funds for the project. And without federal funds, well...it just ain't gonna happen. 

One example:  https://www.americanexperiment.org/feds-new-formula-for-projecting-ridership-estimates-sees-30-crash-for-blue-line-lrt-extension/

 

 

Edited January 8 by baobabs727

[mintscraft56]

3 hours ago, baobabs727 said:

Unfortunately, it does matter. Ridership projections figure prominently in the federal funding formulas. Low population density does not bode well for robust ridership projections, and without adequate anticipated ridership, the feds are not going to commit funds for the project. And without federal funds, well...it just ain't gonna happen. 

One example:  https://www.americanexperiment.org/feds-new-formula-for-projecting-ridership-estimates-sees-30-crash-for-blue-line-lrt-extension/

 

 

I hate the fact that this is how it works. Growing areas like greenbrier should be given priority to these projects. How do they expect the area to grow and help the economy when there is no transit for civilian needs? Greenbrier and chesapeake as a whole are growing insanely fast (for Virginia standards). If they want it to grow and help the national economy, then I would expect them to commit to the region and provide funding for expansions. 

On the other side, Greenbrier is already a established growing area. So it shouldn't be a question of IF we will build a light rail, it should be WHEN and HOW SOON we should expect construction. 

I understand the counter argument that there are many other areas competing for the same thing. But when our area is one of the the shining lights of the state, they should look to provide more for this area. Not to mention how many military bases the feds have here!

Edited January 8 by mintscraft56

[lammius]

10 hours ago, mintscraft56 said:

I hate the fact that this is how it works. Growing areas like greenbrier should be given priority to these projects. How do they expect the area to grow and help the economy when there is no transit for civilian needs? Greenbrier and chesapeake as a whole are growing insanely fast (for Virginia standards). If they want it to grow and help the national economy, then I would expect them to commit to the region and provide funding for expansions. 

On the other side, Greenbrier is already a established growing area. So it shouldn't be a question of IF we will build a light rail, it should be WHEN and HOW SOON we should expect construction. 

I understand the counter argument that there are many other areas competing for the same thing. But when our area is one of the the shining lights of the state, they should look to provide more for this area. Not to mention how many military bases the feds have here!

There's less funding than there is need, so the funding has to go to where there is demonstrable need.  If building a new LRT line will cost a billion or two (IDK what the actual cost would be), and it'll cost  $80 million/year to operate it, why make that investment if nobody's there to ride it?  There are thousands of projects that can demonstrate a better return-on-investment.  You say that Greenbrier is a fast-growing area.  So there may be more demand in the future.  Chesapeake has an opportunity to demonstrate that by upzoning to >100 units/acre density and dropping/reducing parking minimums where this line would exist.  That sounds like a lot by Hampton Roads standards, but in rail transit situations, that's not very much.  

From a transit service perspective, this is a chance for Chesapeake to prove a market.

From Chesapeake's perspective, this is an opportunity to continue growing in a focused, intentional, and more sustainable way.  

[lammius]

9 minutes ago, lammius said:

There's less funding than there is need, so the funding has to go to where there is demonstrable need.  If building a new LRT line will cost a billion or two (IDK what the actual cost would be), and it'll cost  $80 million/year to operate it, why make that investment if nobody's there to ride it?  There are thousands of projects that can demonstrate a better return-on-investment.  You say that Greenbrier is a fast-growing area.  So there may be more demand in the future.  Chesapeake has an opportunity to demonstrate that by upzoning to >100 units/acre density and dropping/reducing parking minimums where this line would exist.  That sounds like a lot by Hampton Roads standards, but in rail transit situations, that's not very much.  

From a transit service perspective, this is a chance for Chesapeake to prove a market.

From Chesapeake's perspective, this is an opportunity to continue growing in a focused, intentional, and more sustainable way.  

FWIW, Norfolk should do this along its existing line as well, but so far they have not outside of downtown.  

[Urbanlooker]

Honestly, parking minimums everywhere should be reduced or flat out eliminated. There's absolutely no need for cars to  have 2x, or more, dedicated space than humans in a CITY. 

 

[mintscraft56]

1 hour ago, Urbanlooker said:

Honestly, parking minimums everywhere should be reduced or flat out eliminated. There's absolutely no need for cars to  have 2x, or more, dedicated space than humans in a CITY. 

 

In the United States, cars are the main way each American travels. By the time we pass away, each person will have been in a car for 4-6 years time within their own life! Im not defending a dystopian looking city of parking and car services, but the need to accommodate all the cars is high. And if you want those humans your talking about IN your city, then you best provide space for their vehicles too.  

[urbanlife]

6 hours ago, mintscraft56 said:

In the United States, cars are the main way each American travels. By the time we pass away, each person will have been in a car for 4-6 years time within their own life! Im not defending a dystopian looking city of parking and car services, but the need to accommodate all the cars is high. And if you want those humans your talking about IN your city, then you best provide space for their vehicles too.  

Or do what European cities do when they provide reasons not to need a car to enjoy living in a city.

[baobabs727]

7 minutes ago, urbanlife said:

Or do what European cities do when they provide reasons not to need a car to enjoy living in a city.

such as....?

[Urbanlooker]

48 minutes ago, baobabs727 said:

such as....?

After living there for 3 years I can say a number of things. Convenient and reliable mass transportation, less space for cars (no mandated parking minimums, road diets, pedestrian friendly/only streets), and less suburban sprawl. 

Europe is by no means perfect but their cities heck even their little villages are way more human centric than the US' car centricity.

[mintscraft56]

17 hours ago, Urbanlooker said:

After living there for 3 years I can say a number of things. Convenient and reliable mass transportation, less space for cars (no mandated parking minimums, road diets, pedestrian friendly/only streets), and less suburban sprawl. 

Europe is by no means perfect but their cities heck even their little villages are way more human centric than the US' car centricity.

Well heres the thing. Europe has been covered in cities and towns for about 2000+ years. The distance between town and city is extremely close. They do have some farmland but not as much as the US. The US is vastly populated on the coasts and rivers. However there can be hundreds of miles between cities here in the US. Far, fast, and convenient travel for a person is NEEDED if you want to live in the US.

The US is the size of europe, and for a country the size of europe itself, with states the size or bigger than nations, we are a united, yet very spaced out people. Car is necessary because the US is still young. We dont have thousands of trains because we never built off that infrastructure. The car is the modern day horse and just like old times, a horse is all you need. 

To put it simply, the US is a young, spread out, and strong superpower.  Europe is a ancient, old, yet modern land that had time to build up their infrastructure and build towns so close together. They dont need as many cars because they dont have a very good use for them when everything is close together, or because they have thousands of rail lines leading to every nook and corner of the EU. 

Edited January 10 by mintscraft56

[Urbanlooker]

Yes the US is vast and spread out, except for as you pointed out on the coasts. So why can't there be good transit on the coasts? I lived in the middle of farmland while in Europe with just a, by US standards, small neighborhood of houses and yet there were 3 bus stops and a train station within a 15min walk of my house. 

Never built off train infrastructure the US was literally industrialized and built off of trains. There was a time when the US had the most extensive passenger train network in the world. In fact most cities even had very extensive trolley networks. However, once the car industry became wide spread they lobbied for more and more car infrastructure. This in turn led to most trolley networks being paved over and basically all of the passenger train network becoming part of the freight system.

They don't need as many cars in Europe because they've purposely built up their infrastructure in such a way to not require cars. 

[carolinaboy]

1 hour ago, Urbanlooker said:

Yes the US is vast and spread out, except for as you pointed out on the coasts. So why can't there be good transit on the coasts? I lived in the middle of farmland while in Europe with just a, by US standards, small neighborhood of houses and yet there were 3 bus stops and a train station within a 15min walk of my house. 

Never built off train infrastructure the US was literally industrialized and built off of trains. There was a time when the US had the most extensive passenger train network in the world. In fact most cities even had very extensive trolley networks. However, once the car industry became wide spread they lobbied for more and more car infrastructure. This in turn led to most trolley networks being paved over and basically all of the passenger train network becoming part of the freight system.

They don't need as many cars in Europe because they've purposely built up their infrastructure in such a way to not require cars. 

According to the linked article, Asia has 543 million cars. Europe has 413 million cars. North America has 358 million but more per capita than the rest. No doubt the US in particular should build more public transportation (especially rail) to reduce car dependency but it's not like we're the only gas guzzling citizens on the planet. I have no idea of the validity of the figures in this article.

.https://www.thedrive.com/guides-and-gear/how-many-cars-are-there-in-the-world

[baobabs727]

20 hours ago, Urbanlooker said:

After living there for 3 years I can say a number of things. Convenient and reliable mass transportation, less space for cars (no mandated parking minimums, road diets, pedestrian friendly/only streets), and less suburban sprawl. 

Europe is by no means perfect but their cities heck even their little villages are way more human centric than the US' car centricity.

1)  That's what I thought. Especially relative to your items 2a and 2b (parentheticals related to your 2nd example).  Reflexively, I recoil when confronted with most administrative behavioral economic policies.  Absolutely repulsive. 

2)  I've been all over Europe, and while I always enjoy myself there, I'm also always quite content to return to the US. (No, I have no desire to move to Paris, Rome, Vienna or Prague...thank you very much. And yes, I say this despite the fact that I speak multiple languages.)   

3)  Cars are an American obsession (and some would argue uniquely so in terms of the breadth, depth and fervency of our car culture) made possible in large part by the relative vastness of this country.  That's not gonna change outside of NYC. Let's get real.